[Closed] Green Party is like a car crash...

I'd say 70mpg was pretty poor for a one person vehicle. You can easily get 40-50 from 4 seater (Although most are driven with only one occupant).

If you are going to claim that a car is 4 person vehicle then you'd have to put motorbikes as two person vehicles. You'd also struggle to find a car that can do 40-50 easily on anything other than a motorway/dual carriageway cruise.

No need to start with just one

No need perhaps however you'd get a lot more "bang for your buck" by starting with cars, not least because there are more of them.

As said - for carrying one person at or around the speed limit, it ought to be way better than that.

It's way better than any car can achieve and lest be honest, most car journey do not involve them carrying 4 people.

You'd also struggle to find a car that can do 40-50 easily on anything other than a motorway/dual carriageway cruise

40-50mpg? You seriously think that's unachievable off a motorway?

I drove through heavy traffic across Cardiff and back in an old auto Passat - got 40mpg!

It's way better than any car can achieve

Rubbish!

40-50mpg? You serious?

When you include commuting, and all the stop start that involves driving around a town, yes. Oh and if we're going to compare like with like, petrol engined too.

drove through heavy traffic across Cardiff and back in an old auto Passat - got 40mpg!

It's way better than any car can achieve

Rubbish!

So less than than 70 then?

Both car and big bike are bad that is why both will be targeted. A bike might be slightly better than a car for some journeys at the moment but that doesn't make it good.

A bit like asking would you prefer a kick in shins or in the nuts. The kick in the shins is preferable but if there is a third, less harmful option, as there is with transportation then that should be the one we consider.

I think they would find very stiff opposition to this due to the lobbying power of motor manufacturers.

but that's offset by their natural advantages

So less than than 70 then?

When you include commuting, and all the stop start that involves driving around a town, yes.

You're wrong. Loads of cars can do 40-50 round town.

Your motorbike does 70 in urban commuting?

or are there already super eco bikes out there but that no-one worth their leathers will actually ride?

This is the point I was trying to make, rather than getting into a scrap. I want to see someone try to make the most efficient engine powered two wheeled vehicle possible, just to see what can be done.

Yeah, there are some super-dull Hondas 700/750s that do a squillion mpg but nobody with a functioning adrenal gland would want to ride one for fun.

Your motorbike does 70 in urban commuting?

That's a rough average that includes urban commuting, yes.

I want to see someone try to make the most efficient engine powered two wheeled vehicle possible, just to see what can be done

Well that would be an electric powered one which aren't, or don't seem to be, as available in the UK as in other parts of the world.

Liberal-based linkage.

Still looks like a bunch of cranks squabbling about nothing, to me.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/dec/15/greens-blown-it-in-brighton

molgrips - Member

Your motorbike does 70 in urban commuting?

Mine doesn't but like I say, it's a sports bike so comparing it with an economy car is silly.

But my old 125? No problem at all, despite it being ancient and shit. A fuel tank smaller than a jerry can is kind of a statement of intent 🙂

The current Honda Forza does 122.8mpg, I can't find an urban figure but it'll drop off much less than a car.

That's a rough average that includes urban commuting, yes.

How much urban commuting?

Mine doesn't but like I say, it's a sports bike so comparing it with an economy car is silly.

Well yes and no. The fact that it's a sports bike is the issue - where are the economy bikes? Motorbikes aren't an econonmy solution as long as manufacturers are creating and selling them for the RRROOOAAARRR! instead of the greens.

Seems to me that the small utilitarian bikes all seem to be un-faired, which probably doesn't help.

How much urban commuting?

Dunno, I don't keep a breakdown of miles commuting in urban, commuting in non urban, general riding urban, general riding non urban. Bikes aren't stationary as often as cars are so the urban average is bound to be closer to the overall than a car. In comparison, my car will average about 24 mpg doing similar driving.

molgrips - Member

Well yes and no. The fact that it's a sports bike is the issue - where are the economy bikes?

Everywhere! Over half of all motorbikes sold annually are 125cc or lower. And that's disregarding the economic larger capacity bikes. The most popular ptw in the UK claims 130mpg.

Fairings actually make very little difference except to comfort/weatherproofing, at least at legal speeds.

Liberal-based linkage.

That paints a rather different picture to your previous one which used remarkably puerile right-wing terminology such as "eco-comrades". Why do right-wing ranters both here and the United States use such childish schoolyard taunting language? Is making their point in a grow-up sensible manner really beyond their capability?

And yes the Green minority administration in Brighton has had some issues as that dated Guardian link points out. However a more recent analysis in a [i]non-political[/i] manner, if you accept that Lord Ashcroft is capable of that, suggests a reasonable level of satisfaction from Green voters in Brighton :

[url= http://stevehynd.com/2014/12/18/green-party-to-hold-brighton-pavilion-in-2015-general-election/ ]Green Party to hold Brighton Pavilion in 2015 General Election[/url]

[b][i]The polling puts the Green Party ten points ahead of Labour (38 to Labour’s 28%).[/i][/b]

If this is reflected in the May general election it will represent a huge increase in support for the Green Party in Brighton.

You might think that they are [i]"a bunch of cranks squabbling about nothing"[/i] but many voters in Brighton, which you felt was important to draw our attention to, don't appear to agree with you.

Not read the Greens manifesto but are they going to target powerful cars and gas guzzling 4 wheel drives. I think they would find very stiff opposition to this due to the lobbying power of motor manufacturers.

I have a "gas guzzling" sports car on which I have to pay £500 a year road tax. The car does 2,500 miles a year so actually does less environmental damage than a 1.3L driven more often

The car does 2,500 miles a year so actually does less environmental damage than a 1.3L driven more often

But more than a 1.3l driven 2,500 miles?

Everywhere! Half of all motorbikes sold annually are 125cc or lower. And that's disregarding the economic larger capacity bikes. The most popular ptw in the UK claims 130mpg.

Interesting comments posted above about the impact of the interview on Green voters. Having thought about it most of their likely voters won't actually care, I suspect they don't really care about whether policies are costed or not, they just care about the policy and take the view the money will be found from somewhere.

We need more social housing and we certainly need to stop selling off that which we do have (happening aggressively in London where Labour boroughs are selling to developers). We also need to address lifelong security of tenure, in South West London (eg Pimlico, Westminster, Kensington and Chelsea) there is lots of social housing. Once people get a place they don't move, why would they even when their kids have gone and they retire, they are living in a place costing 15-20% of the market rent ? These places need to be freed up for people who work in central London and need social housing provision, large family apartments need to be freed up for families and not kept by retirees.

My main problem with the Greens is that they seem willing to sacrifice the ecology for idealism...
i.e. the increased traffic pollution in Brighton due to the road changes which don't understand traffic flow and are cosmetic ideas,
the inept implementation of cycle lanes that seem more aimed at killing cyclists
and their complete meltdown when it comes to implementing recycling

As someone whose life is Brighton based (i.e. an ex-Brighton resident who can no longer afford to live there) and someone who is committed to environmental causes would I vote Green?
Not from what I've seen so far.

But more than a 1.3l driven 2,500 miles?

@DaRC, yup agreed. My daughter and her husband live in Brighton and share your views.

Jenny Jones did not do the party any favours yesterday on newsnight
Evan Davis was bending over backwards to be nice to her and polite about Natalie Bennets earlier cock up

Jones came across as petulant and defensive when her party were being cut way more slack by Davis than any other party would get

Jamby, all local councils will keep selling off housing stock and cutting other services until the government stops hammering their finances and actually take sthe lead on the housing crisis, which will never happen as everything theyve done seems to be about engineering another housing boom!

I didn't leave a 30mph zone with my last tank of fuel and got 47.2mpg measured by fill to fill. Exactly the same on the computer btw. The wife's car says it's doing 53mpg I doubt it's been reset in months and is mixed local and country roads.
The difference between bike and car is probably marginal and arguing between them is just a distraction to the actual point.

Pesky bloody Greens with their "ideals" and "principles"

Meanwhile the proper politicians have to get on with the important business of running the country and getting caught by undercover reporters selling parliamentary access for money.

In all the years I've owned and ridden motorbikes on the road (nearly 40) i dont think I've ever calculated the mpg, it's it's irrelevant to me and pretty much every other motorcyclist i know.
they're toys for the most part for me, eaking out fuel would defeat the main purpose of them.

Why do right-wing ranters both here and the United States use such childish schoolyard taunting language?

oooOOOhh.

but many voters in Brighton, which you felt was important to draw our attention to, don't appear to agree with you.

At least two on here, do. What's your point, caller?

In all the years I've owned and ridden motorbikes on the road (nearly 40) i dont think I've ever calculated the mpg, it's it's irrelevant to me and pretty much every other motorcyclist i know.
they're toys for the most part for me, eaking out fuel would defeat the main purpose of them.

jambalaya - Member

I think the differential even with both driven 2,500 is quite minor on the grand scheme of things

It is, but that just starts the other argument which is that building a car and having it drive 2500 miles a year is environmentally terrible. And generally financially too. That's not a criticism of you btw!

Like, my dad's car's almost 10 years old and has 9000 miles on the clock. That makes the cost of ownership terrible, he could have hired cars or taken taxis for every one of those miles and saved a fortune, and it'd be better environmentally. But we're a nation of car drivers, in a country built for cars, my dad just wouldn't be without a car even though it barely moves.

Mr Woppit - Member

"but many voters in Brighton, which you felt was important to draw our attention to, don't appear to agree with you."

At least two on here, do. What's your point, caller?

Seriously? You can't understand the point I'm making? 😕

I would have thought that it was self-explanatory.......ie, many voters in Brighton don't appear to agree with you. And in sufficient numbers it would appear to give the Greens an [i]increased[/i] majority in May's election.

I'm not sure why you think the fact that you have found two Brighton voters who don't support the Greens somehow makes that comment less valid. No one has suggested that every single voter in Brighton will be voting Green.

Most motorcycles are not ridden very far each year
Those that are generally get ridden slowly as commuters and achieve good mpg
Motorbikes use a lot less fossil fuel to construct as they contain far far fewer parts
Motorbikes last longer than cars (see the 90's bike thread!), contribute less to congestion and take up less space when parked.

And there really aren't very many of us anyway - have you seen how difficult it is to get a license these days?

Like many things, the perception often trumps reality - probably best to concentrate on the things that really matter.

Like many things, the perception often trumps reality - probably best to concentrate on the things that really matter.

They have 15 paragraphs in their policy document about cars and 3 about motorcycles - it seems they agree with you.

It is, but that just starts the other argument which is that building a car and having it drive 2500 miles a year is environmentally terrible. And generally financially too. That's not a criticism of you btw!

they're toys for the most part for me

Great, but some people might use them for transport. Hell, I might, if it would do 200mpg.

Motorbikes last longer than cars

This debate is muddied. Motorcycles can be eco friendly if you buy one and use it all year instead of a car. If you still own a car, and use your motorbike to commute occasionally and to razz round the countryside on the weekend, this is not eco friendly 🙂

Pesky bloody Greens with their "ideals" and "principles"

Edit - except in Brighton they do seem to have engaged young people in voting; it might not be Green but it is radical which is what those Brightonians like (I think)

which means they are just as unprincipled as any other politician.

Huh? They have principles, therefore they are unprincipled?

Tell that to millions of Bangladeshis who will lose their homes to rising sea levels and millions of sub Saharan Africans who will, unless they move, become Saharan Africans.

And that would be precisely the reason as to why I agree with the Greens policy of relaxing immigration controls, even if I don't agree with much else.

yes - because hiding your idealogy behind the principles of another party is logically unprincipled because you're selling a lie i.e. vote for me I'm green (but not really I'm red)

Having a pop at airport expansion and "gas guzzling" cars is missing the point entirely.

Not bothering to change the small things because the big things are still there is in fact missing the point far more.

Deciding what to do about China's emissions is really a difficult problem. However, when you next buy a car it would take zero effort to choose something economical. Well, unless you have trouble getting over your vanity perhaps?

I agree with the Greens policy of relaxing immigration controls

Are you sure they have said that? As far as I am aware the Green Party's immigration policy differs from the other major parties only in that theirs would be fairer, more just, and more humane.

yes - because hiding your idealogy behind the principles of another party is logically unprincipled because you're selling a lie i.e. vote for me I'm green (but not really I'm red)

So you think the party's name is more important than their policies? They really aren't hiding anything, in fact the whole reason this discussion is happening is because they're so open about their policies - more so than any of the other parties.

Are you sure they have said that? As far as I am aware the Green Party's immigration policy differs from the other major parties only in that theirs would be fairer, more just, and more humane.

In the context of climate change that would entail a relaxing of immigration controls, or at least, a huge increase in the amount of asylum seekers.

Which I totally agree with, I want to watch the developed nations squirm as the results of their collective idiocy turn up in a hoard on their doorstep.

By 2050 there's no way in hell the equatorial regions are going to be even remotely economically viable.

yes - because hiding your idealogy behind the principles of another party is logically unprincipled because you're selling a lie i.e. vote for me I'm green (but not really I'm red)

And the Conservatives claim to be green, when they're blue. And Labour are, more and more blue. Lib Dems are economically blue. Damn these parties and not just picking one colour and sticking to it!

Bloody Greens hiding their socialism in plain sight on the website and in the main policies.

So you think the party's name is more important than their policies?

because hiding your idealogy...

ffs. we're back to that "they're just a bunch of closet commies" bollocks which right-wingers say when they can't come up with a coherent argument. Everyone from Miliband to Obama gets accused of that.