I think that proportion may be larger than most people want to admit to.
Any chance you could be precise with what % you think this means?
The reality is the % of parents who dont care is a tiny minority of all parents. I would imagine its much smaller than most think - imprecise statements are both easy and informative.
FWIW teachers I knwo with 29 years experience say nothing much has changed in that front though its a decade since i worked in this area directly
You really can help all children with an education system.the only issue is how to do thisYou can't help all of the people all of the time
AA, do you put words into the mouths of your students too
Does any of the shite you post ever make sense? Do you ever tire of casting aspersions on my ability to do my job?
I'd disagree about creaming off the best teachers, and disagree with sweeping statements saying grammar schools are better as they get better results. Of course they will, as they have the best kids. So other non-selective schools will perform worse as we were all judged on the % of A*-C inc. En & Ma.
The divisiveness of the grammar system highlights much wider societal problems that need to be addressed.
Junkyard - I think Aspiring for the best for ALL children is a great ideal. Personally, I just believe stretching the top end is as important as inclusiveness.
I'd disagree about creaming off the best teachers,
Why?
Obviously not all and some teachers at Grammars will no doubt be shit but all the evidence I've seen from up close shows they have less difficulty getting people to apply for jobs and have a bigger choice at interview (or indeed any choice or any applications).
sorry Kimbers, but IMHO, that is complete Bollox
Rockape the FT article that analysed the levels of social mobility and academic achievement completely backed up my Bollox
So do numerous studies showing that grammar schools benefit a tiny minority (of richer kids) while disadvantaging a much larger number (of poorer kids).
Abolishing the grammar system just removes [b]another[/b] place for pushing the academically bright, which I think is a mistake.
So other than Kent, Reading and a handful of other places is everywhere else shit and not pushing the gifted?
AA - please dont do what you accuse THM of.
and disagree with sweeping statements saying grammar schools are better as they get better results
Like for like Grammars do better by about 0.6 of a grade or something like that as I recall
Do you want universities to ban entrance requirements too?
No not at all, there's a big difference between testing someone at the age of 11 and at 18.
For me, one of the great things about Grammars, is the exceptionally bright pupils aren't made to feel like "The Odd Geeky Ones"
Bizarrely THM is going with his gut on this one and ignoring the facts
He'll be supporting Brexit next!
AA - please dont do what you accuse THM of.
I dont recall implying you were shit at your job?
There is no doubt that Grammars do push those who get into them but how the circle can be squared with them having such a negative impact on the vast majority that dont get in is beyond me. On balance they are a bad thing imo. Others may disagree like some in the government apparently but trying to dress them up as helping social mobility is underhand at best.
I work in a non-selective, I also have many friends who work in the grammar system in Kent. Every school is having issues hiring teachers at the moment.
It is easier attracting teachers to the grammar system as it is seen as an 'easier' option.
Many of the lessons I have observed in a grammar school have been dire, many of the teachers I have collaborated with have been next to useless. However, they still get good results.
Can we stop calling it the "grammar school system". It's not. It's the "secondary modern system".
Three to four times more kids ended up at secondary moderns - with all the sense of failure and tyranny of low expectations and other problems that went with them - than went to grammar schools. It's like calling the London road network "the cycling network" because about a fifth of journeys on them are on a bike.*
Just because the government have started taking about "inclusive" grammar schools (that's what we call an oxymoron kids) and wouldn't touch the term secondary modern with a barge pole doesn't make it any less about condemning kids at age 11 to years of mediocre expectations from their press, parents and teachers.
*NB I have no idea if those figures about London roads are correct but you get the idea. Also, we should totally start calling the road network the cycling network.
I work in a non-selective, I also have many friends who work in the grammar system in Kent. Every school is having issues hiring teachers at the moment.
True
It is easier attracting teachers to the grammar system as it is seen as an 'easier' option.
Also true and surely supports the idea they can attract better (or at least some) teachers.
In my subject science they will also be able to have all physics taught by a physics teacher, rather than a biologist like me. This is both an advantage to the kids and is seen as a real advantage by many teachers who hate teaching out of specialism.
I'd disagree about creaming off the best teachers, based on what I've seen in my current school.
For one thing, I work here. Jk/ I try, but I am certainly no super teacher.
In my experience here, teachers can get away with more as the students are so lovely. My time isn't (usually) spent on crowd control, I can actually teach, and most of the time the students will listen, because the atmosphere created by the school is so positive. In other schools I've worked in, my time was spent stopping kids stealing craft knives to slash teacher's cars. I used to feel awful for the more willing kids who get left to it, but what else can you do!
Sorry AA - I felt you were putting words in my mouth, as you had just accused THM of.
As for being shit at my job, I'll find out tomorrow, as I have my annual simulator check, which I am allegedly studying for at the moment!
I came from a Norfolk working class family, that benefitted hugely from the government Assisted Places scheme putting me through an Independent Grammar School. It was a crying shame that scheme was abolished.
It is possible for Grammars to assist social mobility. Does the entrance exam system need adjusting? Quite possibly. I also would back any suggestion for schemes to ensure the brightest from the lowest social strata get a look-in too.
Do you ever tire of casting aspersions on my ability to do my job?
Tut, tut, AA you are being overly sensitive. In fact, I was doing exactly the opposite.
I was picking you up on putting words into someone else's mouth above* precisely because I am sure that you would never do that to your students. [*edit: as dant agrees]
If you that was too subtle, then perhaps you were right and I am wrong. You decide.
My time isn't (usually) spent on crowd control, I can actually teach,
Which is the main reason teachers leave state education in droves and head for Grammars or the private sector...dozens and dozens of teachers have left schools I have worked in with almost those exact words "I want to teach not do crowd control". It us without question that Grammar schools find it easier to recruit and so get more choice and can get better and more experienced staff.
So why the need for crowd control? The circle is beginning to square at last....
Tut, tut, AA you are being overly sensitive
No you are just a colossal ****.
o why the need for crowd control? The circle is beginning to square at last....
If you can manage an opinion why dont you give it?
No you are just a colossal ****.
ok, you win, I was wrong - as you were.... 😉
If you can manage an opinion why dont you give it?
You are the expert, I am not. I wanted the expert opinion on why the need for crowd control?
You are the expert, I am not. I wanted the expert opinion on why the need for crowd control?
Thats funny I thought you were suggesting something about squaring a circle?
What would you like to know about why the need for crowd control?
So why the need for crowd control?
Coz the grammar schools hoovered up all the nice kids and austerity has ensured the rest are left way behind
why the need?
simple question surely?
edit for x-post: ah, its austerity. Ok, I thought it might be a more complex issue. Relax, AA you off the hook.
Some kids are naughty. Its hardly rocket science. What has this to do with curcle squaring?
"Squaring a circle" - dont worry, leave it to woolly humanties teachers. 😀
So you dont have any point to make? Business as usual then.
woossshhhh
you really are trying the prove the point that I WASNT making earlier 😀
woossshhhh
you really are trying the prove the point that I WASNT making earlier
What have I missed then, tell me in simple straightforward sentences.
normally with the comfortable, white, middle class kids, going into a Grammar,
ROFL
Have you ever seen a grammar school outside of Devon or Cornwall? I can assure you that the above is nonsense
Classic THM, speak in code then mock other people for not understanding
But then:
Grammar School Statistics - Parliament
Cant get link on my phone...says non whites are slightly higher than expected
My grammer was also rated one of the highest in the borough for exam passes and university places which plummeted when it went comprehensive
Oh FFS, of course it bloody did.
Inputs, outputs... No?
Classic THM, speak in code then mock other people for not understanding
Wooosh! 😉
What have I missed then, tell me in simple straightforward sentences.
How simple do I need to make it?
45 mins ago: "so why the need for crowd control?"
28 mins (KISS): 'why the need?"
Now: hmmmm....
But kimbers has answered, "blame the bloody Tories/austerity".
That's easy enough - might even get a C at GCSE. We can all go to bed easier tonight. Austerity, austerity, austerity.....
as always, its been a pleasure AA, a pleasure
I've been teaching for 17 years and nobody has ever tried to cream me off.
I've been teaching for 17 years and nobody has ever tried to cream me off.
I knew this drama teacher once.......
No surprise of the viewpoint of the privately educated on here and who are also sending their children to private school.... 😀
Perspective and context is important regards these discussions...
Private school is another whole subject.
Private school is another whole subject.
Gawd bless bursaries.
Got to disagree with the white middle class only thing regarding our Grammar School and we are not exactly in an ethnically diverse region, we have Academies, Comprehensives or whatever not Grammar schools are called these days Comprehensives that were formally farming based but changed to 'Performing Arts Academies to try and encourage the council estate under perfomers to be celebs yet learn stuff as well, and by far the most ethnically diverse second only to local private schools is the Grammar.
I also have to agree with the teachers under pressure, our neighbours are ex teachers all their teacher friends are rushing for early retirement. A lad that used to work for me, brilliant chap, ex head boy, prefect, then had a career in the RAF left to take up a job where he could 'make a difference' had been working at our brand spanking new Academy financed by the local billionaire philanthropist and a model school emulating the private school system with strong uniform rules and house culture my daughter left private school to pursue a course there which was how i came across him again.
Next I hear politics had forced him to leave then a nervous breakdown caused by a move to the Performing Arts hell hole, I had to drag him out for a bike ride (he's also a mountain biker like me)and he filled me in on the whole sorry stressful situation which I wont bore you with, but suffice to say there is certainly in this part of the world a serious crisis in the teaching profession, so if it is so that Grammar schools can alleviate that in some way, then all well and good imv because whatever it is, it aint working for anybody round here at the moment.
No surprise of the viewpoint of the privately educated on here and who are also sending their children to private school....Perspective and context is important regards these discussions...
I went to a private school.The main house had a Haha and overlooked hop fields, falling to the Ox-bow lake bejewelled flood plain below.
My daughter went to a non selective secondary , sited in a big council estate,struggling for space twixt the milk depot and the railway sidings.
No complaints here at all! I really don't think she could have had a better education anywhere!
No complaints here at all! I really don't think she could have had a better education anywhere!
Glad you think so, she may well have got better grades elsewhere though.
