MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
So, twin 1 goes to the doctors with a bad cough, temperature and complete loss of appetite. GP says viral, no need for anti-biotics. Fine we think.
A day later she is taken back after a day puking and severe discomfort. She is referred to the hospital where she is diagnosed with a severe bacterial chest infection (possibly pneumonia) and is immediately put on intravenous anti-biotics. She's in there right now and just starting to show signs of getting better.
Today twin 2 started showing identical symptoms but the doctor said it's just viral and refused to prescribe anti-biotics even though we went through the identical steps with twin 1 just days ago. It took my wife 15 minutes of arguing before he relented, listened and gave us the prescription.
Just come from upstairs for the second time this evening where I found her shaking - again an identical symptom to her sister.
Decking useless - can't they accept sometimes they might have been wrong and trust parents' instincts?
🙁
I think places where doctors don't have a pronoun create an atmosphere in which they believe they are infallible.
e.g. 'Doctor will see you know'
Doctor? Do you mean 'The doctor', or 'your doctor'? Only god has no pronoun to his title.
Your medical training is............?
If GPs followed "parents instincts" every sniffle would get antibiotics which would result in antibiotic resistance.
Medicine is not an exact science but its a damn sight better than "Parents instincts"
It's not nice having kids in hospital. Get well soon vibes from Scotland.
He must have been a particularly stubborn twunt not to consider antibiotics for No. 2 if he knew how it had panned out for No. 1.
Like any profession, you get good, bad and indifferent ones though.
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TandemJeremy - MemberYour medical training is............?
If GPs followed "parents instincts" every sniffle would get antibiotics which would result in antibiotic resistance.
Medicine is not an exact science but its a damn sight better than "Parents instincts"
Posted 7 seconds ago # Report-Post
That's irrelevant and you know it is. Child 1 from the same house with the same symptoms ending up on IV antibiotics. Dr Quack should have investigated further without the need to be persuaded.
GP's are going to be in charge of more and more fund holding - way too much power. Most GP's are money motivated sadly.
An Internet diagnosis is often more accurat than a gp in my experience
Yeah, whatever TJ, I knew I could rely on you to respond so.
Geoff - for the second one perhaps.
All the best to you and yours MF - hope they get well soon
Geoff - for the second one perhaps.
and where did MF insist on an alternative diagnosis for the first GP visit? Read the post before trying to wind someone up who is obviously upset about his children being ill. Its not nice!
Geoff - for the second one perhaps.
I read it as him moaning about not taking it into account on the second visit, not complaining about the first. Maybe it's just how it came across.
TJ - I assume by your last comment that you accept that 'the second one' should have had her symptoms investigated further?
That was all I was ranting about. We were initially happy with the docs diagnosis on twin 1.
Could you not have requested a second opinion from another GP? Or, having been unhappy with the way the GP handled the first case, maybe you could have asked to see a different GP? I'm assuming it was the same GP of course.
Hope they're both ok by the way.
Ok If I have the wrong end of the stick I apologise. Sorry
Same GP yes, it was all very rushed (she went downhill this afternoon so we took her immediately to the docs early evening but still had to get back to the hospital etc). Really no time for second opinions, instead my wife just stood her corner.
NP TJ, appology accepted. 🙂
Oh no. Do hope they both get well soon m_f.
I really wish GPs would credit folk with some intelligence.
Fair enough Mike.
I would have been talking to the hospital that has your first daughter in it and seeing what they said personally...
SBZ - given more time we might have done, but it has just been a manic 24 hours.
Been horrible listening to our little dot coughing so hard it has been making her throw up even the smallest amounts of liquid she's taken in the last 72 hours or so.
The reason I suggested that is because we had a similar situation a few months back and rather than go via the gp for the 2nd one we just got the doc in the hospital to check them out. They seemed happy to do so.
I assume my wife was just trying to do it by the book? Can't ask her right now as she is in the hospital of course. Ahh well, fingers crossed they will be okay in a few days.
Hope your twins get well soon MF.
FWIW although I'm not a GP, IME parents instincts are very often correct, after all no-one knows their children better!
Kids in hospital never good 🙁 hope all goes well, as you have time and inclination to rant on here about it ill presume it has! 🙂
Happens quite often GPs think parents over react, however parents know their own child and if something is out of the ordinary, parents should always stick to their guns with regards to the childs health.
TandemJeremy - Member
Your medical training is............?If GPs followed "parents instincts" every sniffle would get antibiotics which would result in antibiotic resistance.
Medicine is not an exact science but its a damn sight better than "Parents instincts"
ahh right, how many kids do you have...........?
@MF - feel for you, been there but fortunately most GPs have gone with the "better safe than sorry' approach with our little ones. For adults though - many of them treat us like idiots. My dentist of all people spotted something in an x-ray and I went for a chat about it with the GP. Was told straight away "not to worry about it". I asked him if he could explain why he felt that way and he stumbled around before admitting he had no idea what it was!
That led to GP no 2 - first thing she did was apologise as she only vaguely remembered about it from med school and wanted to look it up online before offering an opinion - in my mind that is a perfect response - she is now my GP.
TJ - you've apologised so fair enough but your first post was so typical of the arrogant, dismissive and condescending attitude that can get the medical profession a bad name. Some parents are of course idiots but many do whatever they can for their kids before 'making a fuss'. Even if you got the wrong end of the stick, you're a plonker for replying to MF's post in that tone. That said, I wouldn't want your job and I'm grateful that people like you do what you do...
I, unfortunatly, have a vast experience of all sorts of dr's...
A good GP is almost impossible to find, but when you do, getting an appointment is almost impossible....(i found one!)
I would honestly say go to a different GP for something very minor soon and see if you feel more confident, if not keep trying... It seems getting a good GP is as difficult as getting a NHS dentist these days 😥
i hope your kids are ok
TandemJeremy - Member
Your medical training is............?If GPs followed "parents instincts" every sniffle would get antibiotics which would result in antibiotic resistance.
Medicine is not an exact science but its a damn sight better than "Parents instincts"
My Mother's instinct that my 3 year old sister was ill but the GP said she was over worrying and told her to go home.
A few days later my sister was air ambulanced to London after my Mother didn't believe him and went into casualty where she was diagnosed with infection to liver and kidney.
After 3 weeks on life support they asked my Mother why didn't she bring her in earlier as she would have been ok which she replied the GP told her 4 times to go home on different days as he thought my Mother was over worrying.
2 weeks later they turned life support off and declared her dead.
My Mother had a nervous breakdown and has never been the same again with OCD for the rest of her life and bubble wrapping her family afterwards.
GP covered it up too after she complained. He was strickened of by the Medical council for another mistake and many complaints from other families. GPs can make mistakes.
20 years later I grew up and went to med school so people wouldn't have to deal with lazy terrible doctors.
My current GP is excellent while my last was terrible.
So TJ while I think you have logical debate, in this instance you can can ki55 my a55.
hope the twins get better soon, must be hard without the illness. in the last year we have had to stay in hospital 3 times, all within 24hrs hours of being seen by a doctor. things can change quickly with babies because of their size but the boy was properly ill in all 3 cases.
Arrogant, highly if not overpaid, insensitve, overworked(not gp), condescending statisticians.
The average intelligent human is better looking on the web for information most of the time. its what the gps i know do anyway they just feel slightly more subjective.
Nice to see a typical bell end stw reply when the op is going through on of the most worrying times of their life.
Nice to see a typical bell end stw reply when the op is going through on of the most worrying times of their life
My point is that parents should trust their instincts as GP's can be wrong and the OP's children will be fine but if the GP listened to the OP in the first place then the children wouldn't had to go to hospital in the first place!
As a GP I can tellyou it's a bloody hard job to do well! The most important thing to do is tolisten to the parent patient and do a thorough examination and document everything! - V hard to do when you have 5-10 mins per patient and ever increasing expectations.
The signs that a kid is really poorly rather than just "viral" are when they have a really high temp/heart rate/resp rate and increased cap refill time/rash. I do this and document it on nearly every kid I see. The sad thing is that you could get through GP training with spending no time in paediatrics- shocking when lots of your caseload is unwell kids! Kids though do go off very quickly and a child that is ok in the morning can deteriorate markedly by the evening. However had I been the GP in this case I would have been eating humble pie with kid no 2. I think most reasonable patients accept that we are human, but understandibly hate arrogant and cocksure members of the profession!
Anyway MF - hope your kids get better!!
the best bit of training i did for treating kids and parents was to become a father myself. it's not until you have your own you truly understand the bond.
However i could argue that a midwife's error killed my sister in law and a bad decision by a psychiatrist led to my brother's suicide. can't prove it though
DrNik - twin 1 had increased heart rate and shallow breathing, siphons as you describe!
Anyway, she is back home now and sleeping. Her sister is beside herself and not feeding nor sleeping so difinately has the same (I am having 5 minutes before going up to bed).
Before we left the hospital we talked to the consultant and they couldn't believe the GP attitude even though they knew the case history.
The sad thing is that you could get through GP training with spending no time in paediatrics
That really is shocking - even I had to do a stint in paeds, albeit a short one, as part of my Paramedic training!
Get well soon mini M_Fs!
Nasty stuff mate!
Sounds like the mini MFs are getting better though thanks to your tenacity 🙂
Thankfully the Ho hum family's GP has been spot on with everything (in their defence).
woody i should clarify that. you'd have to spend time in paeds as an undergraduate but you could miss it completely as a post grad in a GP training scheme. That was the case in my day anyhow -things may have changed.
My paeds and a+e experience as well as doing a PHPLS course have proved invaluable!
Frankenstein, nothing wrong with your reply, it was the much maligned TJ one. sounds like you have done all you can to improve what is essentially a flawed system.
My personal opinion is the medical profession wrong for the modern world. So much research has been done rhat I believe the GP is now flawed as they cant remember everything and now act as a referral service. Even the nhs knows this and has set up nhsdirect.
i know a few gps and they are all doing very nicely, work some preferred hours and have a 'head in the sand, i help people' attitude.
Some nurses operating terminals down at the surgery with a couple of gps the to oversee some of the more crtical patients with services from 5am to 10pm would serve most people far better.
"I believe the GP is now flawed as they cant remember everything and now act as a referral service. Even the nhs knows this and has set up nhsdirect."
Not quite true, NHS Direct was put in place to stop people accessing the NHS inappropriately. In essence it hasn't worked as they could only say go to hospital due to the risk of litigation. NHS Direct is now being scrapped and more local referral systems put in place.
GP's are not expected to know everything and do a very difficult job. Yes they act as a referral service, surely as a patient that is what you want, to see some one who can make an informed decision as to who can give you the specialist care you need?
As to original post, it may well be worth talking the Practice Manager and logging the incident. That way it will be brought to the attention of the Partners and the GP concerned. Nobody is infallible and it could well be a learning point for the GP concerned.
As to all the other comments about you knowing better than the GP or the internet being a better source of info…. I needed a good laugh this morning !
I really wish GPs would credit folk with some intelligence
My original quote. I was dismissed as a moaning menopausal women despite having ALL the classic symptoms of a particular condition. I questioned his judgment - big mistake. He wanted to prescribe me AD's.
I had to seek treatment elsewhere due to being in no fit state, physically or mentally, to argue my case.
I have since seen a female GP who has taken me seriously and has wanted to know about my alternative treatment.
Perhaps GP's people skills need to be improved upon?
Probably.
I don't know what the percentage of proper patients to time-wasters are in a typical GP's day, but judging by some of the drivel that I've seen work colleagues go to the GP with it must be pretty high. So I guess it must be pretty hard to switch out from the "yes there's a lot of it about, you won't die" mode into one which is more investigative.
I'm not making excuses for your GP BTW, but I sure as hell haven't got the people skills to pay 100% attention to everyone in a day 🙂
We have just had our 3 child in an NHS hospital....once again, they f***ed it up. Can't even bring myself to talk about it right now, but the NHS is so poor it's heartbreaking. It's not a money thing, it's a competence and attitude issue.
I'm afraid I credit GP's with a lot of 'intelligence' but wrapped up in so much arrogance that they cease to perform a useful function. TBH, for health problems i've had, I would rather have seen a nurse who listens then a doctor who technically knows his stuff, but won't listen to the facts. It does not matter how much training a doctor has, if he won't listen, it is impossible for him to make a judgement.
M_F - Hope things get better soon.
"I don't know what the percentage of proper patients to time-wasters are in a typical GP's day"
I don't know the figures either, but I do know the reason why you can't always get an apppointment.
GP's receive income based on their list size. This means they can only afford to employ x number of GP's. More and more people are booking appointments to see the GP when they have a cold, or even just because they fancy a chat with the GP (I kid you not). Unless GP's start refusing to accept these types of patients, then unfortunately waiting times are going to get longer and longer.
@ the OP, commonest viral infection in younger kids at this time of year is respiratory syncytial virus, RSV, which produces the symptoms you describe - bronchiolitis, it is usually over & done with in 5 to 10 days. Nicely contagious, so no surprise twin 2 has developed same symptoms. Common complication is a chest infection/pneumonia, at the point GP saw baby 1 first if they listened to baby chest it is unlikely that a significant chest infection was present.
[url= http://www.cdc.gov/rsv/index.html ]RSV information sheet here[/url]
RSV damages the inner lining of the airways, particularly the cillae so all the crap & gubbins stays stuck, and produces the very distinctive and harsh cough you've heard.
Both twins will probably now endure a winter of coughs & colds, and possibly viral associated wheeze. These problems can persist for up to 12 months or so.
I'm no GP lover, mine didn't investigate me properly when I was developing my brain tumour, but they are increasingly jacks of all trade and under a lot of pressure on a daily basis.
NHS DIRECT, LOCAL WALK IN CENTRE, LOCAL PHARMACIST, all advertised on the back of the buses round here there are alternatives to a gp, not all of them do a good job, just like us skilled tradesmen ,sometimes we make mistakes , and dont we just know off the customer when we do.
Not happy with the gp change gp,s complain, i fhe gets a lot of complaints, then hopefully he will be puishing trolleys at asda.
Missingfrontalobe - twin 1 had a mucus swab tested and it came back negative for bhroncilitis (sp?)
It was confirmed bacerial and fortunately they both seem a bit better this morning, twin 1 eating for the first time in 72+ hours - Cheerios and cheese!
Glad to hear your little ones are on the mend MF
Do you always make sure you see the same GP with your kids MF?
I know its not always possible, but I think it makes for a better service for both sides in the long run.
We do when we can but our surgery operates an emergency on-call doctor service so if we ring same day and/or out of normal surgery hours we have no choice.
Do hope the liitle ones get better M_F.
Worth remembering that GPs are as described, general practitioners, and may only have spent 6 weeks doing hands on paedeatric training.
With little ones if your worried you can always go straight to A and E and you will be assessed by paed. on call who can get advice from a consultant.
"With little ones if your worried you can always go straight to A and E and you will be assessed by paed. on call who can get advice from a consultant."
Really? That would be the case in a Childrens Hospital, but I know that certainly isnt the case in most District Generals where over night there will on be a junior on who more than likely will have no Paeds experience.
"Really? That would be the case in a Childrens Hospital, but I know that certainly isnt the case in most District Generals where over night there will on be a junior on who more than likely will have no Paeds experience".
Fair point, i guess i was trying to say that by going direct to hospital with little ones if concerned your more likely to get a more sympathetic ear and not fobbed off and sent home.
Unfortunately I think the GP profession attracts the doctors who are either not good enough or are too lazy to succeed in proper specialities.
I'm biased because a couple of people close to me have had some terrible experiences with GPs recently, one of whcih ended up hospitalised for a couple of months and will probably never recover fully from a heart infection that could have been nipped in the bud had the GP listened early on. Dr Google managed to get the right diagnosis!
The GPs, especially those partnered ones are a huge drain on NHS resources and are effectively just an expensive triage service.
Not many with anything positive to say about GP's here...?
Not many with anything positive to say about GP's here...?
Of course in my situation I have been terribly cynical and thought that GPs were under orders [b]NOT[/b] to refer anyone to a specialist. A cursory glance at my records would have indicated that I very rarely visit a GP.
Not many with anything positive to say about GP's here...?
Well i'll stick up for them. At 5 weeks old my 2nd child has what I regarded as a bad cold. She was too young for me to officially give calpol to - I called the GP got an appointment straight away - and when I walked in he said "what wrong" - I said "she's got manflu - but she is too young for calpol". He didn't have much of a sense of humour, but half an hour later she was in hospital getting a lumber puncture for suspected meningitis. She didn't have meningitis - but spent 4 days in hospital on IV antibiotics.
Fair enough, but accuracy of that test depends a lot on the skill of the person taking the aspirate sample or swab. Easy to not get into the naso-pharyngeal cavity, therefore it misses the area that the RSV is found.mastiles_fanylion - Member
Missingfrontalobe - twin 1 had a mucus swab tested and it came back negative for bhroncilitis (sp?)
If the district general has a paeds department, many do, they'll have paeds cover up to specialist registrar on site & consultant cover off site 24/7.Really? That would be the case in a Childrens Hospital, but I know that certainly isnt the case in most District Generals where over night there will on be a junior on who more than likely will have no Paeds experience.
Junior might be a GP trainee on a paeds attachment, Spec reg will generally be a career paeds though. Problems are usually that they are covering A&E, maternity & special care, & whatever paeds inpatient wards the hospital has, so they tend to be stretched thin on the gorund at night.
Fair enough, but accuracy of that test depends a lot on the skill of the person taking the aspirate sample or swab. Easy to not get into the naso-pharyngeal cavity, therefore it misses the area that the RSV is found.
It was taken using a pipe inserted into her nostril and suctioned out - not sure what more they could do, but I am sure you will tell me 😐
More to the point, how are they both now?
They are both much better thanks - walking around, smiling and playing - but still not eating properly and sleeping lots. But thankfully the worst is well over now and we are happy we pressured for the anti biotics for twin 2 because she never got anything like as ill as twin 1.
🙂