[Closed] Good speech by David Cameron

I am not really sure what you mean with this. Scotland has a different political consensus to England. Its one of the drivers for independence.

Do you think most scots have thought as thoroughly about the benefits of the union, as they have about the benefits of going it alone?

it comes down to Small things like wanting any team that plays against an English one to win,

Aye, but thats just sporting rivalry. The same way I want Celtic to lose to everyone they play. And its only football and rugby really. Have never heard of anyone caring how England do at Cricket for instance.

transapp - Member
Druudh, it comes down to Small things like wanting any team that plays against an English one to win, like when Argentinian (see what i did there) wine sales went through the roof in a world cup, the comments made by Scotish people about the English (although it's Positive racism so it's ok...

You want to bring sport into it too? Rivalry between Scotland and England in sport is like Man Utd and Liverpool, or Chelsea, Arsenal etc. Don't try to conflate that with some sort of racism.

[i]I'd happily take everything north of Birmingham, and call it The Peoples Independent Republic of Northland. It would need to have Scottish access laws. [/i]

I'd go with that. I'd have to move home to vote for it though 🙁

momentum_2000 - Member
...I never really understood the intense hatred the Scotish have for me, an English man....

No hatred. I like most English people I know. There are a few morons, but you have them too (BNP?)

It's an ingrained belief in self-determination and liberty.

As long as we are "subjects" of an unelected head of state and not citizens, and all legislation has first to be filtered through a non-elected upper house, then we do not have true self determination or any real freedom.

This is an issue the whole of the UK should be resolving, but at least an independent Scotland would be free of it.

If Cameron wants to keep the Union then he should be restructuring it.

The first step being devolution for England, ie create an English government instead of them having to suffer under the existing system where they are an afterthought in the whole of the UK. The English could keep their unelected politicians if they wanted. I think the northern regions of England may benefit from a government which concentrated on English issues, although they could secede and join the Scots 🙂

Then create a federation for the UK with each kingdom and principality having its own government. The UK government being for the external powers needed for a country, eg defence, diplomacy, so Cameron would still have a job. 🙂 Preferably locate the federal government in a greenfield town to all the federated states (ie not London).

Fat chance of course, but it works well enough for Australia.

It's the only way I see the union surviving.

We would probably take everything bar the south east to be honest.

I wouldn't care if the Scots voted for independence, it would just be one more country we'd have to conjure up a reason in order to grab their oil...

but with cameron and his cronies in charge who can blame them for wanting to leave

With Salmond and his cronies potentially in charge who can blame us for wanting to stay!

Don't think for one minute that independence is a certainty. I know it's hardly scientific, but a staw poll of family, friends, colleagues and riding chums suggests the vast majority are quite happy with the union. Admittedly that's mostly Edinburgh which is hardly an SNP hotbed.

I've read the comments, especially Epicyclo's.

Seems to me then that there is a fixation with a notion that Scotland is seperate from the rest of the island.
I can't see that from space, but hey ho.

In my opinion, a Scots man is no more let down and misrepresented by someone in Westminster as I am.

Seems to me that for hundreds of years our forefathers worked to blur the lines, the borders, in order to reinforce and strengthen the Union.

To get everyone to buy into one national identity.

Now Wales and Scotland only seem interested in creating their Govs and breaking it all up.

I did wonder if Gov can be effective and useful for such small populations, but then I recalled places like Monaco.
I guess there may be an analogy there as well as other places the channel Islands perhaps.

It just won't feel the same if this devolution thing goes all the way.
(Obviously)
And I just can't help thinking that it will be something lost.

Still, if it doesn't work out, we can all become friends again, supppose.
Though its not nice knowing your neighbours want rid of ya.

😉

kennyp - most polls show a small(ish) majority for keeping the union depending how the question is asked but I wouldn't want to bet my house on it either way

momentum_2000 - Member
I've read the comments, especially Epicyclo's.

Seems to me then that there is a fixation with a notion that Scotland is seperate from the rest of the island.
I can't see that from space, but hey ho.

In my opinion, a Scots man is no more let down and misrepresented by someone in Westminster as I am.

Seems to me that for hundreds of years our forefathers worked to blur the lines, the borders, in order to reinforce and strengthen the Union.

To get everyone to buy into one national identity.

I did wonder if Gov can be effective and useful for such small populations, but then I recalled places like Monaco.
I guess there may be an analogy there as well as other placesm the channel Islands perhaps.

Still, if it doesn't work out, we can all become friends again, supppose.
Though its not nice knowing your neighbours want rid of ya.

On eu and what would happen after an independence vote which has been debated before

THE remaining parts of the United Kingdom would have to renegotiate their European Union membership if Scotland voted for independence, senior European sources have said, saying both countries would become “succession” states within the European community.

EU legal experts say both Scotland and “RUK” – the remainder, of England, Wales and Northern Ireland – would be treated the same by Brussels, with both having to renegotiate continued membership.

Lots of unnamed sources but the scotsman is reasonably reputable and not given to backing the SNP unquestinably
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scotland_and_rest_of_uk_would_have_to_renegotiate_eu_status_1_2116803

....giving RUK an ideal platform to renegotiate. Best possible outcome IMHO.

Druidh.

I haven't failed on anything.
Just tipping in my 2p worth.

I think you've missed something, but it ends here, for me.

Nothing else to give.

🙂

To get everyone to buy into one national identity.

This is the fail.

momentum_2000 - Member
Druidh.

I haven't failed on anything.

kennyp - most polls show a small(ish) majority for keeping the union depending how the question is asked but I wouldn't want to bet my house on it either way

I did say mine wasn't a scientific poll, and given a lot of my friends do work in and around Edinburgh's finance and IT industries it's probably not surprising there was a strong bias towards staying with the UK.

I did think David Cameron's article in the Scotsman today was very well thought out.

momentum_2000 - Member
...In my opinion, a Scots man is no more let down and misrepresented by someone in Westminster as I am.

Seems to me that for hundreds of years our forefathers worked to blur the lines, the borders, in order to reinforce and strengthen the Union.

To get everyone to buy into one national identity...

You are welcome to continue to be let down by someone in Westminster, that doesn't mean we have to be.

The Union came about after huge bribes were paid to the Scots MPs, it was never universally accepted. A quick look at the subsequent history of Scotland will demonstrate that. Wide scale rioting after the union, a readiness to join in any rebellions evidence this. It took a genocidal government policy in the Highlands followed by forcible clearances of the people in the Highlands to subdue the country.

Prior to WWII, there was an element amongst the nationalists to follow the Irish method. There were still remnants of this around when I was a lad.

Although it had long since been discredited as a tactic by the SNP, I'm sure there's still some of those diehards around. I suspect this is what Salmond was referring to when he was taking pride in what has been achieved so far has been without a drop of blood.

The lines have never been seen as blurred up here.

I'm not bothered one way or the other about Scotland gaining independence, but you do have to wonder about some of the practicalities.

Leaving the union would probably mean leaving Europe, at least until it was accepted as a new member. European funding (regional development/ agricultural etc) would dry up and there might even be duties levied on goods such as whisky.

Oil revenues wont be there for ever, what happens then?

What happens to RBS?

etc, etc

ianv - there has already been some pretty good debate on these subjects. Worth doing a wee search on the forum if you are genuinely interested.

i suspect it will make bugger all difference to me either way. So, I'm finding it difficult to care.

Thanks for caring enough to let us know you don't care.

It's quite alright, I do curiously feel that I should care about not caring, and feel vaguely bad about my lack of concern......

You know when people talk about "respect" and that as being a a reason behind some of the disaffection felt in Scotland.

Scotch Scott Scotish Scotchland

Oh and the "hate" i believe that there is some anti-english behaviour from some quarters but it's the in England. I lived there for four years and saw a fair amount of anti-Jock behaviour.

I also think that there is a fair amount of media hysteria (just see the Culcutta Cup match a few weeks ago, it was pretty nationalistic on both sides and repeatedly talked of the Auld Enemy).

Good speech by David Cameron

Has he resigned, and gone to live in social housing.

I'd like us to be independant of the union, As I think it's time we grew up as a nation, get rid of the chip on the shoulder, and be the 'great wee country' that we could and should be.

I too have no anti-English feelings, indeed I find it all rather embarrassing when rags like the daily retard or scottish sun spout their pish during football tournaments and the likes.

We have the highest intravenous drug use in the western world, Areas of Glasgow have lower male life expectancy than Palestine, and that's before you even start to talk about the drink, obesity and smoking problems.....

I'm not laying those problems at the unions door, not at all, But I feel a government in Edinburgh would be better placed than Westminster to try and tackle the issues head on. It's a gamble, no doubt about it, But one I'd like to take.

We seem to think of the union as the norm, when in fact, it is quite the opposite.

It is going to cost millions and probably some more millions. There are more important things that should be being discussed.

Let the fish swim free ... then buy all their lands and property after that put them to hard labour.

ianv - I linked to some discussion of the EU above.

Dont care one way or the other providing one simple condition.
If a state within Britain wishes to have devolved powers and choose how it provides public services it should be funding those policies from its own states population and taxation on business within its own boundaries.
What is unfair is to demand devolved powers and use taxes rasied in another state to offer your own population something that the wider union cannot afford,, ie the current situation is unfair.
Love Scotland but if you want great social policy pay for it yourselves.

nwilko - scotland is a net contributor the the UK.

nwilko - Member
If a state within Britain wishes to have devolved powers and choose how it provides public services it should be funding those policies from its own states population and taxation on business within its own boundaries.

I would like to say, there is no hatred. I love England. Beautiful place and any where I've gone I've met really nice people. But... the current UK government does not reflect the voting pattern in Scotland. Imagine you are at a party and whilst you like the people there, the guy on the decks won't play anything you request. Quite simply, the party is over, and some of us would like to leave. When we have a party, we'll still be happy to have you over.

It is interesting that many of those who are the most [s]anti[/s] pro the European Union also seem to be most [s]pro[/s] anti the Uk union

FTFY

[i]Seems to me then that there is a fixation with a notion that Scotland is seperate from the rest of the island.
I can't see that from space, but hey ho.[/i]

Are you suggesting that countries need to be physically seperated (sic) to exist? How amusing. Although I suppose the Forth and Clyde plus Union canals do that job - might need a gigantic one of these to replace the Falkirk wheel though.

[img] [/img]

aracer - that is a part of the reason tho - one of the threads running thru the independence debate is a desire to have representation and influence in the EU away from the corrosive effect of the eurosceptics and where Scottish interests can be represented,

Same as scottish political consensus is more left wing than in England it is also more pro european and outward looking

If Scotland gets independence then the English and Welsh will be stuck with the Conservatives for ever more.

I'm happy for Scotland to get independence as long as it's as part of the People's Republic of Scotland and South Yorkshire.

Anyone hear Devo on R4 this morning singing "Are we no Scots - we are Devo Max!" 😀

dyl - Member
If Scotland gets independence then the English and Welsh will be stuck with the Conservatives for ever more.

[b]Abandoning the English: We'd abandon the English to decades of Tory rule.[/b]

The Stewart Lee argument, the rightful role of Scotland is to act as an airbag to help protect non-Tory voters in England from the car crash of the Conservatives. For Scotland it's a bit like being asked to be a fireman who's constantly called upon to put out the flames in an arsonist's house. Even if every single Scot voted Labour, we still couldn't prevent people in Buckinghamshire from playing with matches. We tried that all the way through the 80s, and a fat lot of good it did anyone then, it was arson a go-go with Maggie Thatcher.

Under the FPTP system beloved by Westminster, Labour, the supposed alternative which is meant to protect us against the Tories, finds that the only way it can get elected is to offer Daily Mail readers free matches and a bonus can of petrol. After 17 years of Thatcher and Major, we got Tony Blair with his American zippo lighter that left Iraq in flames. Tories whatever way you look at it.

However Scotland votes, the electorate in England will still have their Tory car-crashes and a pyromaniac Labour party. Scotland's chances of getting the government we want get exploded like an airbag across Stewart Lee's mug. The best way for Scots to help our anti-Tory English friends is to offer them a concrete example of social-democratic government in action. We can only do that with independence.

dyl - Member
If Scotland [s]gets independence[/s] buggers off to it's own nationalist utopia then the English and Welsh will [s]be stuck with the Conservatives for ever more.[/s] get a government that more accurately reflects their voters preference

😀

Unfortunately "be stuck with the Conservatives for ever more" and "get a government that more accurately reflects their voters preference" would seem to be approximately equivalent.

I should know better than to join in a discussion about politics. Asking for trouble, innit...

[img] [/img]

Of course a [i]real[/i] Scot would have spelt it P-O-R-A-G-E 🙂

^ Milk Snatcher.

I'm Scottish and have lived in England for the last 25 years. I've never met an English person that gave a sh!t whether Scotland was part of the union or not. A much more interesting vote would be to get the English to vote whether the Scots should stay in the Union. I think the Scots might get a surprise.

For all the English worried they'd be saddled with Tory governments for ever if Scotland left the Union don't worry. There's never been a majority Labour Government that's depended on the Scottish vote for its majority.