[Closed] Get your dancing on grave boots ready

as very similar to sending children down chimneys to clean them

Thatcher ordered the senseless slaughter of over 600 men on the General Belgrano. Did she shed a tear for them?

(Limbers up. Practices new moves in front of mirror...)

Zulu - so for you the northern irish troubles started because there were troops sent there to try to keep the peace? We had no involvemnet before that?

matt..........how do you think you would cope in a nice terrace house in a nice pit village.
with you views on thatcher???

She shut down whole industries without a thought as to what might happen to the employees when towns and districts lost their major employers. She divided the country and sold off the family silver, as Macmillan said. In the early eighties businesses went under as a consequence of her financial policies. She had some dodgy friends, one was Hammer of OXY (Piper Alpha, remember?).

I'll open a bottle I've been saving.

I'm not defending how it was done, but something needed to be done.

It did, but not at the expense of working communities that had given nothing but full hearted support to Britain throughout the decades. To make them pay as hard as they did and as long as they did, to put an entire generation of some communities into poverty on the basis of political dogma is shameful.

Ideally there would have been a managed decline of an industry that kills workers and is an environmental disaster

oh please, the oil and construction industries haven't been wound up because of their safety or environmental records

it's unfortunate that you got people like Thatcher and Scargill at the same time - it was always going to be the workers that suffered when you had 2 sides that wouldn't back down.

she had the power to do things differently. she knew full well the impact her policies would have on the miners and their families. She considered their suffering to be less important than showing all unions what would happen if they opposed her. In doing so she created a new ethos in our country that divided our nation, stunted a generation and still creates enormous anger and resentment to this day.

working communities that had given nothing but full hearted support to Britain throughout the decades

The few people I knew who worked in mining generally hated it and only did it for the money. But hey, why not perpetuate the myth. 🙄

Nope. And neither did I. It was as legitmate a target as the coventry etc.

Ok. In the same way that British soldiers are to the Taleban then?

'Legitimate target'? FFS... 🙄

matt..........how do you think you would cope in a nice terrace house in a nice pit village.
with you views on thatcher???

Why would I move to such a place?

You make your own luck in life - moaning at others and venting rage because it's "someone else's fault" gets you nowhere.

Every government dishes us out sh1t on it's own way - be it obviously (like Thatcher) or in a more sly way like Labour did. You just have to roll with their "punches" and make your own way.

We live in a free country with free enterprise - we aren't oppressed, we don't get imprisoned or shot for no reason (usually). We have a pretty good NHS and a fairly good infrastructure for business and to support our massive population.

I've done many jobs since leaving Uni from struggling to find anything for months and doing £5.50 per hour demolition labouring then farm labouring to co-running a fairly successful little company - what have I learnt? You make your own luck and you don't blame anyone else when/if it all goes to sh1t - which it has done plenty of times for me and my family.

And for the miners? A terrible time for them all but things change and jobs get lost - think Industrial Revolution, think IT boom, think many other major shifts in our economic make-up.

Zulu - so for you the northern irish troubles started because there were troops sent there to try to keep the peace? We had no involvemnet before that?

TJ - your specific accusation is that Thatcher "perpetuated a civil war that could only be ended by negotiations"

The key single act that perpetuated and fuelled the troubles in the latter half of the 20th century was the introduction of the British Army in a quasi-policing role, this was done under the authority of a Labour Prime minister and home secretary.

what have I learnt?

That you're awesome?

Ok. In the same way that British soldiers are to the Taleban then?

Um yes. That's how it works. 🙄

Rio, your right - mining is a dirty, unglamorous, dangerous job.

However, it has always paid better than working in a factory or on the checkouts. That's why blokes in Chile continued to go down the San Jose mine despite being fully aware of the poor condition of the mine.

...and in communities where there aren't a whole deal of shiny money choices, the dirty money looks pretty good.

Debating Thatcher's legacy will always be clouded and polarised by the Miner's Strike - which is both understandable and unfortunate. She did plenty of harm (almost) everywhere else, but that tends to be forgotten compared to the magnitude of what happened to pit villages.

Coal, steel, shipbuilding, manufaturing, rail - all these things and more needed reformation, and to do that required unions to be engaged or disempowered.

Unfortunately making it a unions / workers / management / Government issue obscures the facts that investment for a new generation of commerce (not just banking) was desperately needed, but was not delivered.

Good example in the news recently - Cunard's new QE. Not built on Clydeside or Belfast.

Surprisingly, not built in Korea, China or Poland for cheap delivery either...

No, built in Italy.
[b]WTF[/b] Don't get me wrong, the Italians are fantastic designers and engineers and have a long tradition of shipbuilding - but they are still ship building... We gave up on anything that didn't fit Thatcher's economic model.

Ships are still needed, can still be built profitably in Germany, France and Italy - all countries tied by the same EU "red tape" that we moan about, all countries with a unionised workforce, but countries that have retained, encourgaed and invested in their manufacturing base - [b]AND CONTINUE TO PROFIT FROM IT.[/b]

I'm dusting the Raleigh Burner off to wheelie and skid on her grave, 80's style.

You make your own luck in life - moaning at others and venting rage because it's "someone else's fault" gets you nowhere.

The blood runs blue....

Thatcher's blood may indeed be blue, she aint no human.

matt...........i did prior to this debate think you were a ok guy.
i do now think you are a cock.
i just hope that you and your rosy little world never fall on unfortunate times.

Mat your a product of everything I hate about thatchers legacy.

+1

You make your own luck in life

Which is fine if you have equal and fair access to the same educational and health resources as everyone else. trouble is, people in Britain generally don't enjoy such equality. Not that you'd see that.

Mat; by your own admission, you're from a reasonably affluent background, went to public school/university, have been fortunate enough to secure a decent income from your career. So, did you make your own luck, or was it your parents?

Do you ever stop to imagine what life might have been like, had you not enjoyed such advantages early on? Because your posts on here seem to suggest you have very little understanding of what life is like for millions of people in Britain. Or for those affected by the closure of the only source of work and income available to them in their local area. People who had no options to 'make their own luck', because they din't have the economic ability to move elsewhere to get work, or afford education which might have trained them to do other jobs. Indeed, no such training or educational opportunities were made to the vast majority of people made unemployed as a result of Thatcherite policies.

Do you dress up at weekends, and call yourself [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Antoinette ][i]Marie[/i][/url]?

[img] [/img]

OK, lets be specific, who put troops on the streets of Northern Ireland - up to that point it was entirely an issue for the government and civil authorities of Northern Ireland

Think we used the bLack and tans to actually create the partition artificially

The key single act that perpetuated and fuelled the troubles in the latter half of the 20th century was the introduction of the British Army in a quasi-policing role, this was done under the authority of a Labour Prime minister and home secretary.

Infact is mat just trying to wind people up?

Surf_Matt... that taxi I ordered for you is still waiting!

Surf-Mat is really Gareth Cheeseman

ton - thanks for that. However you are backing up the "it's not fair" attitude. Maybe it's because Ive seen both sides of life - from horribly (and I mean horribly) skint to fairly comfortably off and back down again. Both sides of the coin so a balanced view of it all.

Schooling - yes it was private until 14 then comp as dad lost all his money due to two plcs going bust in the late 80s recession oweing him a lot. So from 14 to now, I have received NO support from my parents.

I lived on less than £10 per week for two months at uni - my folks had no money to support me. I scrabbled around for ages for a "proper" job and did some pretty nasty temp jobs for over a year. Oh and we lost a baby at 37 weeks in 2007 - you may have conveniently forgotten that? If that's "a rosy little world" then you really are talking complete sh1t.

You make your own luck in life

Matt, I think that because you think that you've managed to do alright for yourself from some perceived hardships you think that everyone else is able to. They're not mate and that's what is winding everyone up.
There's having little money while at uni and then there's not having any means to feed and house your family.

iDave - Member
Can we go back to the Winter of Discontent?
i think we're about to....

and again...why do we have to because Labour lived in the Credit card mentality of living beyond your means for as long as possible..

On a general note:
Why do people joke about someones ill health? Would you joke about a OAP relative of yours ill health? Yes she made mistakes but if it wasn't for her we would have appeased alot of people in our weakest hours wouldnt we?

Which is fine if you have equal and fair access to the same educational and health resources as everyone else. trouble is, people in Britain generally don't enjoy such equality. Not that you'd see that.

Not really quite sure what you mean there Fred.

Surf_Matt - read through posts by those that are from the North, contrast their experiences with your own. Your talking about people who've known nothing but mining for generations being able to make their own luck in the same way as your privately educated self? You really think things are exactly the same, equal even, for you and them?

We gave up on anything that didn't fit Thatcher's economic model

Shipbuilding is another industry that had been in decline for many years before Thatcher. The biggest declines were in the 60s and 70s leading up to nationalisation in 1977 and a concentration on naval ships. If you really want to find an industry where investment was needed but not delivered have a look at IT, which was emerging as an industry in the 70s and 80s, we had world leaders and have now thrown it away. But we're going a bit OT...

matt......you are nothing like me.
i left school in 1982 to go on a youth op scheme.
in 1984 i was working for a coal merchant, my dad was a miner.
we both lost our income within a week of each other.
i got a job in a engineering firm labouring. £65 a week of which i gave £50 to my mother to feed the four of us still at home.

dont ever think you are like me.

Junkyard - tell Ducan Bannatyne that. Tell countless other successful people who have worked from zero to successful through hard graft and a bit of nouse (sp?!) Tell the guy I wrote a case study for who got paid £7 a month in Africa sewing clothes together and now runs a major Saville Row suit company.

Again, blame others if you can but I still back it up - you make your own luck in life. Or you moan at others that do.

I personally think we should embalm the witch so that people can visit her, slap her in the face, spit on her, dance on her, burn her.

I lived on less than £10 per week for two months at uni

Two months poor at Uni can someone link up Blur common people for Mat please?
As above is everyone [ no sarcasm[ just as talented as you? Could we all be Richard Branson if we just tried harder? Clearly many people fail due to bad luck that is not of their own making
Sorry for your loss re your child.
Hora would you celebrate Hitlers death? Pinochet? Mugabe? it is beacuse she is despised for what she stands for /did

 

Ton - where did I say we are like each other? We are both males and both live in the UK. We both like MTBing. There the similarities end.

TSY - why does coming from the North make any difference? How did going to a private school for 3 years make any difference? I slacked after that and didn't get great grades or anything when I took GCSEs/A levels at a Comp. Got no support at Uni. No support ever since. I am failing to find this "privileged" lifestyle I am meant to have had. Apart from my folks being amazing (IMO) and supportive in other ways, they most certainly ain't rich.

Junkyard - we aren't in the slightest bit "loaded" - just comfortable. I see mates from London and elsewhere who make me feel like a complete peasant all the time. As for Uni - I received NO support, had a grant, a student loan, had to get a grad loan, came out with debts, had to work every holiday and most weekends to pay to eat and to pay for a very very pokey student scuzz pit. How is that privileged?!

People shouldn't be bitter with someone in government, not bitter with themselves. After all, we make our road in life. Just accept and be content with how far you've gotten.

No one owes you a living.

I grew up in poverty, I don't hold anything against the woman. Nothing. I hold alot against her Daughter though for her pisspoor tv antics.

I think Surf Mat has it spot on. Too many bitter and twisted losers looking for somebody to blame rather than getting off their asses and working.

Surely we DO all have access to the same educational and health resources? We have free education for all until 16, a national health service, free dental treatment for children and quite widespread access to most social services for no fee or for very little (although that last bit might just feel the effects of today's cuts).

In principle, yes. In practice ??

Well we wouldn't have needed this

[url]= http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/news/2010/october/commission-launches-landmark-report-how-fair-is-britain/ ]How Fair Is Britain?[/url]

landmark report released today by the Commission paints a picture of a largely tolerant and open-minded society, in which [b]some equality gaps have closed over the past generation[/b].

[b]But[/b] ‘How fair Is Britain?’, the most comprehensive compilation of evidence on discrimination and disadvantage ever compiled in Britain, [b]also shows that other long-standing inequalities remain undiminished[/b]; and that new social and economic fault-lines are emerging as Britain becomes older and more ethnically and religiously diverse. The Review also identifies recession, public service reform, management of migration and technological change as major risk factors in progress towards a fairer society.

‘How fair is Britain?’ draws on a range of major datasets and surveys, as well as the Commission's own research reports, to build a portrait of Britain in 2010. The 700-page report provides the independent evidence and benchmarks for reviewing the state of social justice.

And it identifies five critical ‘gateways to opportunity’ which the Commission says can make the difference between success and failure in life: Health and Well-being: Education and Inclusion; Work and Wealth; Safety and Security; and Autonomy and Voice

Most damningly, in the context of this thread...

in the 21st century we face a fresh challenge - the [b]danger of a society divided by the barriers of inequality and injustice. For some, the gateways to opportunity appear permanently closed, no matter how hard they try; whilst others seems to have been issued with an ‘access all areas’ pass at birth[/b]. Recession, demographic change and new technology all threaten to deepen the fault lines between insiders and outsiders.

I understand surf-mat's constant challenging those that cry "unfair" - but the inequality of opportunity makes that a very caustic bait.

I've always worked hard to get where I have got to, often at the expense of quality of life... but it took a lot of trying to get that first "opportunity", and for many that just doesn't happen.

pp...........i have worked every day of my life since leaving school
i had to, i could not afford to **** about at uni or collage.

There is a horrid undertone throughout this thread about the British lack of support for people who do well. It manifests itself as a colossal chip on our collective shoulders.

Stop being soo bitter. When I was 16 I left road riding/clubs as I was sick of the middle aged men bitching off and complaining about any and everything.

Yes at somepoint we ALL become victor Mildrew about our life/railing against the injustice to us but please make sure its in your 60/70's not bloody now.

Save your ire for writing letters of complaints to Points of View, Watchdog, a saucy teen programme, a flash of ankle on Emmerdale etc etc.

Not really quite sure what you mean there Fred.

Ok. Whilst child education is free for all, the difference in standards between areas can be vast. Hence 'good' state schools tend to be in more affluent areas. And The standards provided by private education are very often better than that in most state schools. Schools in poorer areas tend to have larger class sizes, which has been proven to be detrimental to educating children effectively.

If you are fortunate enough to have been to a good school, you are then more likely to get into uni. In poorer areas, kids are needed to go out to work as soon as they leave school, to help provide for their families. In some cases, kids have to work, as their parents simply can't support them through Further and Higher education.

If you are lucky enough to be able to continue in education, then more and more employment opportunities start to become available/possible. How many captains of industry/professionals are there with little or no academic qualifications? How many come from poorer backgrounds?

Education is key to future potential success. Someone like Surf-Mat has had a far better start than his counterpart in an impoverished Northern mining town. That he can't see this is a sad irony.

Oh and Mat; citing exceptions to the rule doesn't really prove your point. Very, very few people have the inate ability to succeed regardless. The vast majority have to rely on their circumstances more.

As for health; poorer areas tend to see more health problems, leading to overstretched and less effective health care resources.

So, yes, things may seem 'equal' on the surface, but the reality is that such 'equality' is little more than a myth.

Shipbuilding is another industry that had been in decline for many years before Thatcher.

Very, very true - and the unions had a lot to answer for.

My point though, is that ship building (as a "top of the head" example) is still a [b]profitable[/b] enterprise for our unionised, EU member neighbours.

[s]We[/s] (sorry for the collective we - Thatcher) really shouldn't have gone for the scorched earth / slash and burn approach to British manufacturing industry

There is a horrid undertone throughout this thread about the British lack of support for people who do well.

Where?

In your head, possibly. I can't see any of what you speak on this thread.