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Mastilles, look at google regarding the rates and causes of fuel poverty.
Backhander - bully and laud? Do you know what laud means?
backhander - MemberTJ you really are a cock.
Pot kettle black.
Kimbers - John Major takes a lot of the credit for the end of the troubles
Backhander - I guess I was hoping that you (or someone) would be able to put together a counter to TJ with as much conviction as TJ posted himself.
Coming from a background of Guardian reading public sector workers I've never heard the other side of the argument put forward in a plausible way.
Surf-Mat - Member
No politician is perfect, but as Tony Benn said you knew where you stood with her. On the point of unemployment, industries like coal were no longer viable, she didn't waste money trying to subsidise them and although bitter at the time, countries that did try to keep loss making industries going like France & Germany are now paying for it with huge unemployment now.
She stood firm against the IRA and reacted with an incredibly cool head in the Brighton bombings.
She took on Argentina and won.
She revolutionised higher education.
Her government turned around an uncompetitive, union-dominated economy into a powerhouse that set a lot of precedents for the world to follow.
She inspired (some of) a generation to believe that hard work pays off.
She was a genuinely well respected leader the World over.
Do people not understand that the coal industry was NO LONGER VIABLE? Why prop it up?
Do you actually have any idea what you're talking about Surf-Mat?
'Standing firm' to the IRA only perpetuated the problems in Northern Ireland: what really moved things on there was Major and then Blair's willingness to shift and negotiate and start the peace process.
She inspired (some of) a generation to believe that greed is good and the pursuit of self-interest can be put above the well-being of the whole.
And what the hell do you think she did that 'revolutionised Higher Education'? I ask this in all sincerity as someone who works in the sector.
And as someone who also grew up in one of the steel towns that fell apart in the 1980s.
I guess I was hoping that you (or someone) would be able to put together a counter to TJ with as much conviction as TJ posted himself.
+1
And I know it's a cliche - but that doesn't mean it isn't true - she promoted the idea of selfishness as a virtue and is responsible for a great deal of the social problems and divisions still present in this country.
+1
Wow I always thought Surf-Mat was a bit of a tool but really.....
I've not noticed this, most people who hate her now always have, me included.
I was going to write something in her defence, 😯 but I can't. I too have hated her for a long, long time. 8)
grum - Member
Wow I always thought Surf-Mat was a bit of a tool but really.....
Bit harsh. He's does tit around in boats though, so how could he possibly understand the feelings that started this thread?
I'll say something in her defence that I've borrowed from another recent thread....
hell of a team builder tho.... 😉
sweepy - Member
Mastilles, look at google regarding the rates and causes of fuel poverty.
Okay, just have and no-one appears to be blaming Thatcher. But, still, it must be her fault even though Labour were in power from 1997 until earlier this year.
Ohh, and I am politically neutral - I am of the opinion that they all serve us different shades of the same shit so not sticking up for her, I just dislike hearing people wishing death on another human who was, at the end of the day, doing what she felt was right for the nation whether, on reflection, it was right or wrong.
yeti............team builder and you missed this 😉
I guess I was hoping that you (or someone) would be able to put together a counter to TJ with as much conviction as TJ posted himself.
I think the problem is that the arguments against thatcher are usually based on first hand experience.
I think in this instance surf-mat's opinion is way wide of the mark.
The coal industry was viable, the issue was the power of the union. Thatcher took them on and beat them into the ground. You only have to visit parts of the north (and a few in the south) to see the utter devastation that her actions caused. People are still paying for her policies today.
I won't celebrate the death of an old woman, but I can and do appreciate that hatred for her runs deeper than a lot of southern middle class posters on this thread can understand.
OK, the IRA couldn't continue their preferred activities of bombing and maiming innocent people due to the americans realising sometime around 11/12 sept 2001 that terrorism wasn't as glamorous as they had thought. PIRA ran out of funds and therefore only had political means available to them. There were no war crimes in the south atlantic and don't start on about the belgrano when the captain of the ship has admitted it was a fair hit. Argentina has no rightful claim to the islands, if anything they should be a repulic.
I'm no fan of Thatcher and consider my politics central (I have views to the left and right). It's clear that she really did ruin many areas of the UK but was it a benefit to the country as a whole? I don't know. Nobody really does as the alternative was never played out. I completely sympathise with those whos lives were wrecked by her policies (there were many) and they have a right to hate her IMO. I'm a little young to remember the affects of her actions and so will not insult people by offering an opinion based upon the writings of people who may have been biased in some way or another. Edit; I grew up properly poor, does that get me kudos points?
I think what you can also blame Thatcher for is that she was so influential that a supposedly left wing government largely carried on her legacy (though Labour have to share the blame for that one too of course).
Re coal not being 'viable' - any idea how much we still subsidise other sources of power? Or the banks for that matter.
I think it's important to remember in amongst all the handbagging that she was a figurehead, a focal point for a deeply entrenched little britain, pro-establishment, anti-working class, elitist, right wing, old money, ****-the-poor mentality that has never gone away.
...and Oh look, here we are again, ideology as policy, cut the state back, ****-the-poor, tramp down the communities that have never recovered from the last time the Conservative party was in full swing.
If ever we need an example of the way that governments can build lasting legacies, the damage done by the Conservative government in the past is the best of all.
We're all in it together....
Cheers Ton! Didn't intend on misquoting so went and copy/pasted. 😉
OK, the IRA couldn't continue their preferred activities of bombing and maiming innocent people due to the americans realising sometime around 11/12 sept 2001 that terrorism wasn't as glamorous as they had thought.
[b]WTF
Don't let facts get in the way, ehh???[/b]
The Good Friday Agreement was signed more than 3 years before 9/11
mat PR really is your calling unsubstantiated unevidenced opinion masquerading as fact and then you have the audacity to say this
Surf-Mat - Member
TJ - no it's "TJ's" OPINION.A VERY different thing to "the truth
Self awareness is really not your strong poiunt is it?
I hated some of the things she did I found other things laudable.
I won't celebrate her death because that would be sick and weird. I won't be terribly upset either. She, like everyone, was flawed in many ways but the populace voted her in a few times (I was too young to vote)so she obviously struck a chord with a lot of people.
I think on reflection Blair did worse things than she did but in a much less explicit way.
My take on Politics is that they are all C****
lets not forget that under her lawson and then lamont came up with the awesome idea of pension holidays!
Nice answer backhander. I don't agree tho 🙂 een tho the only bit of my answer you refute is the belgrano.
I wonder how her supporters feel about her (continued) support for the mass-murdering Pinochet? I think that indicates pretty well what kind of person she is.
Who got us involved in Northern Ireland?
A Labour Prime Minister!
a nice little fact you choose to overlook when making accusations TJ!
yossarian...........words of wisdom.
this woman ripped the communities to pieces, causing unknown debt, depravation, divorce and suicide in some cases.
people were using soup kitchens and food handouts.
do you wonder why there is so much hatred for this woman.
she made it personal, and not for the countries wellbeing.
In April 2005, Gerry Adams called for the IRA to lay down its weapons
No IRA weapons were decommissioned until October 2001, and the final consignment to be "put beyond use" was announced on 26 September 2005
It was all talk until then.
I'm with MF on this one.
While I'm not pro Thatcher, I feel this pure hatred needs some balance so used the opinions of some pro Thatcherites from a rather nicely written Independent piece from a while back.
As usual, everyone goes ballistic.
She took on Argentina and won.
Hadn't read that until now.
I should bloody well hope she won! A fully professional army against conscripted children (17 year olds). It was a war, not football where anyone has a chance against England. 😆
And had I signed up, as I was planning, I would have been one of the youngest Brits sent there.
As much damage as Thatcher did do, the loathing and vitriol should be heaped upon those who voted her in. Time and again.
They enabled this.
👿
Can we go back to the Winter of Discontent?
"Who got us involved in Northern Ireland?"
Oliver Cromwell actually.
matt...my hatred is pure for her mate.
i despise the woman and everything she did and stands for.
The coal industry was viable
Not in the form it was in the 1980s, and had been in decline for a long time before that -
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I'm not defending how it was done, but something needed to be done. Ideally there would have been a managed decline of an industry that kills workers and is an environmental disaster; it's unfortunate that you got people like Thatcher and Scargill at the same time - it was always going to be the workers that suffered when you had 2 sides that wouldn't back down.
Can we go back to the Winter of Discontent?
i think we're about to....
very old woman in nearly dead shocker. must be a slow day in the world of news. I do love how some people believe that they could have done a better job. oh and if you don't know she wasn't exactly your typical tory gentry. yeah she f$%ked up but show me a world leader/politician who hasn't lived up to their own hype. she did a better job then labour. fact.
Zulu-Eleven - Member
Who got us involved in Northern Ireland?A Labour Prime Minister!
a nice little fact you choose to overlook when making accusations TJ!
Please try and think about what you're saying here: 'we' were involved in Northern Ireland right from the moment of its creation under the Government of Ireland Act in 1922 because 'it' is part of the United Kingdom. Unless you're fingering Lloyd George it's pretty difficult to blame anyone for getting 'us involved.'
@ Surf-Mat
Are you incapable of having your own opinions then? In the happily 'revolutionised' world of Higher Education we call that plagiarism...
Zulu-Eleven - MemberWho got us involved in Northern Ireland?
A Labour Prime Minister!
a nice little fact you choose to overlook when making accusations TJ!
Eh? to what are you refering? the division of ireland in 1920? Liberal leader IIRC.
Rio - coal needed to be reformed but there were many factors not taken into consideration. Firstly that the cost of benefits needed to be added to the cost of the imported coal to give and actual cost to the country of closing pits. Also that the polish coal imported was of poorer quality and also of the strategic value of having and indigenous energy supply.
who got us involved in iraq and afghanistan?
Mattie - well if it helps, I do agree with most of the opinions and wanted to add some balance to the thread. I didn't really have time to construct my own list so "borrowed" one.
It's had the desired effect so I'm happy at least.
Oh yes - I also think we are in for a "Winter of Discontent" x 100 in the next few years. We are so utterly and totally in the sh1t that I would be surprised if we get back to nutty 2007 "wealth" in anything less than 15 years.
TJ you really are a cock.
Can't argue with fact, so resort to insults. That's mature and clever, isn't it? 🙄
Wow I always thought Surf-Mat was a bit of a tool but really.....
I just don't think he ever experienced the negative effects of Thatcherism. And tbh, I doubt many of those supporting Her Maggiesty did either.
Sadly, this thread just serves to illustrate just how divided this nation has become, socially, culturally and economically. The 'Chav Underclass', an entire generation reliant on Benefits, has emerged as a result of Thatcherism. Indeed, just a brief read of this forum reveals the insular, narrow-minded and selfish attitudes which have come to prevail in Britain today. I think that's sad. Some folk on here bang on about how great Thatcher was, clearly oblivious to the real damage that evil woman did to this country, OUR ****ing country.
Instead, here we sit, bickering over who's right and wrong, calling each other rude names, trying to score points.
Do any of you seriously think that woman gives a shit about any of the people in this country? Really? Does she bollox. Her sole interest is in lining her own and her cronies' pockets. I'm sat right this moment, looking at the monument to her treachery:
[img] 
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Thatcher ordered the senseless slaughter of over 600 men on the General Belgrano. Did she shed a tear for them?
(Limbers up. Practices new moves in front of mirror...)
Please try and think about what you're saying here: 'we' were involved in Northern Ireland right from the moment of its creation under the Government of Ireland Act in 1922 because 'it' is part of the United Kingdom. Unless you're fingering Lloyd George it's pretty difficult to blame anyone for getting 'us involved.'
OK, lets be specific, who put troops on the streets of Northern Ireland - up to that point it was entirely an issue for the government and civil authorities of Northern Ireland.
TJ - like I said, I'm not defending how it was done. Personally I consider sending people down pits to dig coal as very similar to sending children down chimneys to clean them - in this day and age we should treat people better. Unfortunately a whole mythology has been created about the noble miners which tends to prevent people from looking at the issue objectively.
I used to live just to the left of that tower, by the Thames in a nice tribute to Thatcherism called Anchorage Point... 😉
[i]The Government of Northern Ireland requested that the UK Government deploy the British Army in Northern Ireland to restore order and to prevent sectarian attacks on Catholics. Nationalists initially welcomed the Army, often giving the soldiers tea and sandwiches, as they did not trust the police to act in an unbiased manner. Relations soured due to heavy-handedness by the Army.[/i]