[Closed] German Market . . . .

Fin, blame the victims eh? That's the kind of attitude that fuels terrorism in the first place. Plenty of migrants throughout history and the world have been treated like shit by their host countries, I"ve yet to hear of any Filipino's truck bombing Singaporean shopping malls in protest of OFW conditions.

That's because they don't have a societal victim complex that thinks that 9/11 was a hoax and that crusaders are out to get them combined with feelings of "make [s]murica[/s] the caliphate great again"

Fin, blame the victims eh? That's the kind of attitude that fuels terrorism in the first place.

That's because they don't have a societal victim complex that thinks that 9/11 was a hoax and that crusaders are out to get them combined with feelings of "make murica the caliphate great again"

I don't think you can dump every person who "acts like a terrorist/does things that the media describe as terrorism" in a convenient box marked "radical Islamist" There are many many reasons why these young people might find themselves doing this stuff, and quite a few of the acts on continental Europe have a much more complex background to them than at first glance reveals. The Nice Truck Driver; petty criminal, drinker, violent, perhaps mentally unstable, had lived in France for 10 years and only started to go to mosque in April, this was not an active and determined member of an Islamic terrorist organisation like the 9/11 bombers.

The Nice Truck Driver; petty criminal, drinker, violent, perhaps mentally unstable, had lived in France for 10 years and only started to go to mosque in April

Hang on - are you saying he wasn't one of the people on Farage's poster? Confused!!

Personally, I think what you are saying Mike coulld offend all sorts of various groups who have been treated just as badly - if not worse and not resorted to strapping on a bomb vest.

The act of a man who has been living in France for 10 years was not the act of a man who felt a bit poor and downtrodden, it was the act of a chauvinistic prideful nationalistic male who feels historically slighted by the fact that the Muslim world has fallen behind the west, a culture that he vuews as inferior and undeserving of its wealth.

What you're trying to say Tom_W is that Muslims have a chip on their shoulders, or a "societal victim complex" as you call it, which explains why only 99.99% of Muslims in Europe aren't terrorists.

Well it might not make a lot of sense to a rational person who thinks beyond knee-jerk reactions but it certainly maintains your long standing Islamophobic narrative.

What's your explantation btw for the German NSU terrorists who went around in recent years murdering Muslims ?

That Germans suffer "societal victim complex", or doesn't that fit in so neatly with your Islamophobic agenda ?

I see what you're saying, Tom. I'm not victim blaming, far from it. I work with very vulnerable children, some of whom are refugees. If you put me in their position I think I'd be pretty angry and desperate. I also help out with a few adult refugees and asylum seekers. Watching people's mental health deteriorate day after day living in a Kafkaesque semi-nightmare, it's not difficult for me to see how that despair can turn to hate. That's why I help, so that we all get to see the human in each other.

If we don't see the humanity in people we are lost. A lot of those people going to fight for Daesh are victims in one way or another. This is no good verses evil story, I wish it was that simple.

it was the act of a chauvinistic prideful nationalistic male who feels historically slighted by the fact that the Muslim world has fallen behind the west, a culture that he vuews as inferior and undeserving of its wealth.

and had an obvious and well signposted route to infamy thanks to a media and public discourse obsessed with terrorism.

Tom_W1987 - Member

it was the act of a chauvinistic prideful nationalistic male who feels historically slighted by the fact that the Muslim world has fallen behind the west, a culture that he vuews as inferior and undeserving of its wealth.

I blame the Germans losing two world wars for this :

[url= http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/xenophobia-still-prevalent-in-germany-20-years-after-neo-nazi-attacks-a-851972.html ]Racism and Xenophobia Still Prevalent in Germany[/url]

[i] Hundreds of right-wing extremists and local thugs spent four days in late August of 1992 throwing rocks and firebombs at a building used to house asylum-seekers, most of them Sinti and Roma, in the outlying Lichtenhagen district. Thousands of others stood by and cheered on the attackers, shouting "foreigners out!"[/i]

Merkel comes out of this with far more credit than Seehofer

What's your explantation btw for the German NSU terrorists who went around in recent years murdering Muslims ?

The exact same reasons that I stated for the truck attackers.

Whenever there is a narrative of being victimized, this is what happens.

Do you see South East Asians and Chinese people shooting up schools in the USA or Britain? Despite historical racism and colonialism. Rarely, because they have an attitude that places a lot of emphasis on their own personal agency. It's whites there, who blame everyone but themselves that like to go on mass killing sprees.

The full question involved a second part :

What's your explantation btw for the German NSU terrorists who went around in recent years murdering Muslims ?

That Germans suffer "societal victim complex", or doesn't that fit in so neatly with your Islamophobic agenda ?

So do Germans suffer "societal victim complex" ?

Or when it comes to German terrorists to you just see them as individuals, unlike how you see Muslim terrorists ?

Germany does have a far right victim complex and has done historicalky, I've met a lot of Germans who still like to blame WW2 on us being a bit mean to them during Versailles.

The middle east in general though, is utterly dripping with victim memes. It's driven the internal conflict and their conflict with the west and countries on the borders of the Islamic world. What they need to do is look to other post colonial countties like China and India, for some hard lessons.

Germany does have a far right victim complex and has done historicalky

Yeah, I've read a bit of Nicholas O Shaughnessy & Ian Kershaw recently and there's no doubt that's true.

The middle east in general though, is utterly dripping with victim memes. It's driven the internal conflict and their conflict with the west and countries on the borders of the Islamic world. What they need to do is look to other post colonial countties like China and India, for some hard lessons.

I was going to ask you if by the Middle East [i]"utterly dripping with victim memes"[/i] you meant the Zionists, or what you thought of the likely consequences of a co-ordinated Western military attack on China to force regime change, but I don't think I bother. This is obviously going to go nowhere - you'll still be an Islamophobic bigot long after this thread is dead.

Merkel comes out of this with far more credit than Seehofer

How exactiy. A lot of her political allies are being very critical, never mind her enemies. She created the draw with her inviation and dropped the rest of the EU and her security forces into the mire for which they where unprepared and could not have been prepared.

This attack was predictable, I predicted it. I said the refugee/migrantcrises was mismanaged and terrorists wouod use it as a cover. IS have been publically calling for such attacks. As for the Nice comparison he was radicalised by IS very quickly. The Begians have woefully inadequate security rescources and are one of Europes lowest spenders on defence.

This attack was predictable, I predicted it. I said the refugee/migrantcrises was mismanaged and terrorists wouod use it as a cover. IS have been publically calling for such attacks. As for the Nice comparison he was radicalised by IS very quickly. The Begians have woefully inadequate security rescources and are one of Europes lowest spenders on defence.

the likely consequences of a co-ordinated Western military attack on China to force regime change

Whilst it's undeniable that the West is the responsible for triggering most of the Arab Spring it's facile to say every nation would respond to having it's leadership ousted with a Civil war! France narrowly avoided a civil war when the Allie liberated it. In contrast Germany and Japan had homogenous poulations who had broadly the same aims and had no need whatseover to fight amogst each other for their way of doing things. The problem with (say) Iraq was that it was populated with three different tribes with totally different desires. If Iraq had been 100pc (say) Sunni there would have been a fairly peaceful transition to some kind of new government. If it had been 100pc Persian Shia it wold have simply become defacto part of Iran as a large chunck of Iraq effectively has.

I've only been to China once but I suspect China is more like (say) post war Germany and doesn't have a Civil war waiting in the Wings that will kick off if something happened to the current establishment.

outofbreath - Member

Whilst it's undeniable that the West is the responsible for triggering most of the Arab Spring

I would deny that completely.

While Western governments without doubt made the best of a bad thing, the "Arab Spring" was the last thing they wanted. They did however steer it to serve their best interests, and helped to crush it where it didn't.

The West was not responsible for triggering "most of the Arab Spring".

The Han form the majority of the Chinese ethnic mix by a large percentage, this majority is so big that if the rest did try to rise io they wouldn't last long, as see by the recent issues with their muslim population.

I would deny that completely.

Well 22 minutes ago you were quite on board with the idea which is far from controversial!

the "Arab Spring" was the last thing they wanted.

That's certainly true, they just didn't think it through when they deposed Saddam.

The Han form the majority of the Chinese Ethnic mix by a large percentage, this majority is so big that if the rest did try to rise io they woildnt last long

Ta! That certainly supports my guess.

Well 22 minutes ago you were quite on board with the idea which is far from controversial!

Well I've just checked in case there was a vague possibility that I had lost my marbles, and no, said no such thing.

The "Arab Spring" had nothing to do with deposing Saddam btw.

The "Arab Spring" had nothing to do with deposing Saddam btw.

Deposing Saddam effectively *began* the Arab spring.

But you're dodging the issue. You're saying that if the Chinese establishment was deposed by the West there would be a meltdown of the kind we see in the Middle East.

I'm saying you're wrong.

I'm saying you're wrong.

Well, there's only one way to find out.

*applause* 😀

As for the Nice comparison he was radicalised by IS very quickly.

there's little/scant evidence is was radicalised by outside agencies at all. The belief (certainly by the French authorities) is that he was "self radicalised"

I'm at a total loss as to how you'd stop such a strategy of terror and this sort of thing occurring again. Anyone?

The answer(s) are suprisingly simple but you might not like them.

Find a country that is not under terrorist threat and think about why not. Better still think back to before we were and what changed.

I'm at a total loss as to how you'd stop such a strategy of terror and this sort of thing occurring again. Anyone?

Tesla lorries.

Find a country that is not under terrorist threat and think about why not. Better still think back to before we were and what changed.

I'm saying you're wrong.

Thanks, but I was aware of that.

If you want to say that what began with a Tunisian street vendor setting himself alight was all because Saddam Hussein had been deposed 7 years earlier then that's up to you. Go for it.

Phobia means irrational fear, islamophobia is an oxymoron.

Phobia means irrational fear, islamophobia is an oxymoron.

Some comments on Tunisia's problems with radical Islamists. Tunisia is IS most successful recruiting ground and recruiters are paid big money

The dangers posed to the country by radicalization can be seen in the 2015 terror attacks on the Bardo Museum and a hotel in Sousse. Over 60, mostly foreign, tourists were killed. There was a further attack in November 2015, this time on the presidential guard, indicating that youth radicalization would appear to be on the increase.
Recruiters are paid between $3,000 and $10,000 (2,900-9,600 euros) for each new person they sign up, according to information gathered by the United Nations. According to the Tunisian government, actions are already underway to hinder the recruiting process, including targeting mosques where radical preachers are known to disseminate their views.
The Tunisian government has also taken repressive measures. More than 15,000 suspected extremists have been monitored since the beginning of the year, according to officials, with 700 added after the Sousse attack. Tunisians under the age of 35 are no longer able to travel freely to Libya, Turkey or Serbia, typical transit countries to Syria and Iraq.

http://www.dw.com/en/tunisias-radicalized-youth/a-36868952

I'm at a total loss as to how you'd stop such a strategy of terror and this sort of thing occurring again. Anyone?

1, stop promoting inciting and supplying weapons and wars into the Middle East
2. create safe and legal forms of entry into Europe
3. set public policy around understanding and acceptance of immigration.

what do I win?

captainsasquatch - Member

I'm saying you're wrong.

Well, there's only one way to find out.

To all you thinkers which do you should come first political reform or economical reform.

Which one is EU and which one is Middle East?

Merkel getting an absolute pasting from a commentator on Sky, Professor Anthony Gees. She is responsible and must go. Attacks where flagged by US and others, no effective security in place at obvious targets, asylum seekers not really checked etc. Privacy laws in Germany are "excessive" and inadequate for today's threats. German Interior Minister supposedly said Germany must "learn to live with terrorism". Such a phrase wouod not be acceptable in the UK, people would demand security

Reposted with a minor terminology change for Earnie:

Whilst it's undeniable that the West is the responsible for triggering the meltdown in the middle east it's facile to say every nation would respond to having it's leadership ousted with a Civil war. France narrowly avoided a civil war when the Allies liberated it. In contrast Germany and Japan had homogeneous populations who had broadly the same aims and had no need whatsoever to fight amongst each other for their way of doing things. The problem with (say) Iraq was that it was populated with three different tribes with totally different desires. If Iraq had been 100pc (say) Sunni there would have been a fairly peaceful transition to some kind of new government. If it had been 100pc Persian Shia it wold have simply become defacto part of Iran as a large chunk of Iraq effectively has.

I've only been to China once but I suspect China is more like (say) post war Germany and doesn't have a Civil war waiting in the Wings that will kick off if something happened to the current establishment.

what do I win?

Bugger all........you obviously haven't got a clue.

Here is the vote-winning solution :

[img] [/img]

Domestic terrorism sorted. Next problem ?

1, stop promoting inciting and supplying weapons and wars into the Middle East
2. create safe and legal forms of entry into Europe
3. set public policy around understanding and acceptance of immigration.

what do I win?

1) Zero chance of stopping the Russians and Iranians, they will step into the vacuum we would create and "their" side would win
2) They exist already, you can apply for a visa of you have a legitinate reason to travel
3) We have that, we voted for immigration to be cut to the low 10's thousands and to Leave the EU so we have full control of our borders

It may not be what you want but it's what our democracy voted for.

German Interior Minister supposedly said Germany must "learn to live with terrorism". Such a phrase wouod not be acceptable in the UK, people would demand security

Well yeah, but the UK doesn't need more people, Germany does. I suspect that if the price of gaining 1 million new Germans fast is a couple of these attacks they might consider it a price worth paying.

Domestic terrorism sorted.

Well the US clearly has far less of a problem with domestic terrorism than does Europe. I wonder why that is ?

Reposted with a minor terminology change for Earnie:

Thanks, perhaps you should have aimed it at Tom_W since he thought China was relevant to this thread.

How do you know I've got big ears btw ?

Domestic terrorism sorted.

Well the US clearly has far less of a problem with domestic terrorism than does Europe. I wonder why that is ?

Presumably it's got nothing to do with your man Donald Trump.

Well the US clearly has far less of a problem with domestic terrorism than does Europe. I wonder why that is ?

Is it because you just made that up?