Well I'm sure nothing will change while Ben can use it as an excuse to avoid trial...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/30/benjamin-netanyahu-corruption-trial-delayed-ntwnfb
The impression that i get, is that the culture and the, i cant think of the word im thinking of, lets say "narrative" that has been propogated within Israel for the past 50-60 years, has been one of dehumanising and "othering" the Palestinian people. Compulsary national service wont hurt that process either.
When Israeli historian Ilan Pappe pointed out that the issue of supporting Israel had caused intergenerational conflict between Jews living in the West, with many young Jews now strongly supporting Palestine in stark contrast with older generations, he was asked why this wasn't so much the case in Israel.
This was his reply :
They didn’t get the same education as young Jews in America. They got an education from a very indoctrinated country. And that’s the key. They were produced, if you want, engineered by the Israeli education system.
I wrote an article in 1999 warning that, looking at the Israeli curricula, the next graduates of this system would be racist fanatics, extreme and dangerous to themselves and to others. Unfortunately, I was absolutely right.
This is the product of a very indoctrinated society from the cradle to the grave.
You need to re-educate these people. You can’t just show them things and hope that this would move them.
They can see dead Palestinian babies and say ‘Good, very good’. Dehumanisation is part of the Israeli DNA and it’s very hard to confront just by giving them more information.
All Israelis?
Starting to see the veil slipping from one or two posters here. Unsurprising, but depressing all the same.
I certainly wouldn't say all Israelis given the protests within the country - there is a minority who are very vocal in the opposition to the current slaughter however they appear to be considered with almost the same disgust as what is held for inhabitants of Gaza, however I am perfectly content with deeming a significant proportion of the Israeli population as evangelical zionist genocide/apartheid enablers
So you're revisioning your own statement? When you said 'Israelis', I took it to mean all. Perhaps you should be more specific in your outbursts.
The problem with polls, is that they don't tell the whole story. We know this all too well. For sure; expulsion of Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza is a popular ideal, as is the complete destruction of Isreal and all Jews across the Middle East. And I'm sure many people here would love to see the total erasure of Israel from the maps. But polls don't tell what people would actually do; they can be very different. And it depends what you poll on; for example recent polls within Israel suggest a growing majority of Israelis want an end to the 'war'. So what are we to believe?
The fact is that cherry-picking data and information to base your own argument on is often very flawed, and ignores other information that may tell a different story. As I said earlier; nuance is important. Do a majority of Israelis really want to murder all Palestinians? When we boil it al down, people aren't very different. They all share the same common needs and desires after all. 'Israelis' are no different to Brits, or Americans, or Chinese people, or indeed anyone else, ultimately. We're all people. What divides us is politics, religion and economics. These things are what are being manipulated right now, to keep us all divided and easier to rule. And we can see this borne out very much in Israel; people are constantly being told they are under 'threat', billions of dollars are spent to perpetuate conflict, to maintain that threat, and religion and culture are manipulated to coerce people into thinking and acting in articular ways. The reality of daily life in Israel is that there is an increasing economic crisis, caused very much by a massive influx of people to Israel (hence the illegal settlements etc), and a polarisation of people on socioeconomic lines. The truth is that the biggest problem facing Israelis is actually other Israelis. Left to its own devices, the country would tear itself apart. Whilst there are the affluent secular liberal middle classes in Tel Aviv, so there are the near-impoverished farmers and workers elsewhere. Access to opportunities and education are very limited inIsrael. We see a similar pattern here in the UK: socioeconomic neglect and decline has led to a rise in right-wing ideologies amongst ordinary people. And Brexit. But what's also similar? How people are manipulated by those with a vested interest in perpetuating social division. So to blame all people of crimes that are being masterminded by a tiny elite, is to blame Humanity. And really, we're not so bad if we all get a fair slice each, are we?
So this is why I challenge attitudes such as blaming 'Israel' as though it's one homogenous entity with no nuance; as though it's some unfaceted monolith. Let's look within, to see where are own humanity lies, let's not get carried away and sucked into the whole spiral of hatred. Yes, of course we must abhor the genocide, but we mustn't abhor humanity. The only way forward for humanity is peace. Hatred does not lead to peace.
All Israelis
According to polls, a significant majority support the current depravity.
While you’re here - the ritual accusation of antisemitism is meaningless these days. Maybe try actually engaging with the issue.
Sorry, this is the post I meant to respond to. My statement still stands.
Not sure what you mean by 'the ritual accusation of antisemitism is meaningless these days'; is that aimed at me? As I said; the veil is slipping.
As for 'engaging with the issue'; one major issue is blind hatred of Israel and all Israelis. Which you're demonstrating repeatedly. I get your anger, but do you think you're any more angry than anyone else here? Do you believe yourself to be more righteous because of the way in which you express that anger? Do you really think your outbursts are at all progressive or helpful?
We all need to take a step back and examine what we do with such anger. Just making angry outbursts online achieves nothing. It doesn't make you more righteous, or cool, or attractive to others, or anything else. It just makes you angry. Perhaps expressing that anger is cathartic, but it doesn't help in any discussion. Far better to stop, take a moment to try to understand. It's easy to get angry; it's far harder to understand. But you aren't going to solve anything if you don't understand it. Olly's post above helps to give some insight into why so many Israelis think the way they do. And as I've said, it's easy for people to be manipulated. Spouting anger and vitriol online is one sign of that kind of manipulation. That hatred is whipped up somewhere, don't let it inside you. Hatred clouds your judgment and rationality. And God knows we need some rationality right now.
[... meaningless blether deleted ...]
Let's concentrate on the real issue, that while you pontificte about "humanity" children are being starved, bombed and shot, and Israelis cheer.
[... meaningless blether deleted ...]
Let's concentrate on the real issue, that while you pontificte about "humanity" children are being starved, bombed and shot, and Israelis cheer.
I know. We all know. And that's happening whilst you don't understand something then angrily try to belittle someone else on the internet. Tell me how that's working out for you and humanity?
All Israelis?
Starting to see the veil slipping from one or two posters here. Unsurprising, but depressing all the same.
I certainly wouldn't say all Israelis given the protests within the country - there is a minority who are very vocal in the opposition to the current slaughter however they appear to be considered with almost the same disgust as what is held for inhabitants of Gaza, however I am perfectly content with deeming a significant proportion of the Israeli population as evangelical zionist genocide/apartheid enablers
So you're revisioning your own statement? When you said 'Israelis', I took it to mean all. Perhaps you should be more specific in your outbursts.
What are you on about with “revisioning your own statement” ?
All Israelis?
Starting to see the veil slipping from one or two posters here. Unsurprising, but depressing all the same.
I certainly wouldn't say all Israelis given the protests within the country - there is a minority who are very vocal in the opposition to the current slaughter however they appear to be considered with almost the same disgust as what is held for inhabitants of Gaza, however I am perfectly content with deeming a significant proportion of the Israeli population as evangelical zionist genocide/apartheid enablers
So you're revisioning your own statement? When you said 'Israelis', I took it to mean all. Perhaps you should be more specific in your outbursts.
What are you on about with “revisioning your own statement” ?
Apologies. As I explained my next post, I inadvertently replied to the wrong post. Yours was not the post I was responding to.
Wow Hanchenkuchen, I haven't really bothered reading your rather long posts but then I read this:
We all need to take a step back and examine what we do with such anger. Just making angry outbursts online achieves nothing. It doesn't make you more righteous, or cool, or attractive to others, or anything else. It just makes you angry. Perhaps expressing that anger is cathartic, but it doesn't help in any discussion. Far better to stop, take a moment to try to understand. It's easy to get angry; it's far harder to understand. But you aren't going to solve anything if you don't understand it. Olly's post above helps to give some insight into why so many Israelis think the way they do. And as I've said, it's easy for people to be manipulated. Spouting anger and vitriol online is one sign of that kind of manipulation. That hatred is whipped up somewhere, don't let it inside you. Hatred clouds your judgment and rationality. And God knows we need some rationality right now.
Blimey, you sound so much like a former STWer that it is proper spooky!
Obviously you can't be him but it is really weird 😕
What's also weird is how you registered a year ago but only seem to have activated the account in about the last week. That's unusual!
Its not hatred. Its disgust at the abhorrent actions of the isreali government, the IDF and the continual conflating of critism of israel government with antisemitism.
There has not been a single antisemetic remark on this thread that I have seen. The Israeli government and the IDF have been murdering civilians and children and committing war crimes with impunity
The Israeli government and the IDF have been murdering civilians and children and committing war crimes with impunity
Yes yes, but there’s an economic crisis in Israel and the poor dears are misunderstood. I mean, if you’re having a tough time making ends meet, it’s only natural to shove an iron bar up someone’s bum, or break their teeth with a toilet brush, or pull their beard out with pliers. Come on - we’ve all been there.
It looks like final objective is to totally erase the existence of Palestinians to ensure no further claim to the land. There will be no negotiation nor can anyone help the Palestinians now. The Palestinians are coming to an end in this century. Even if the current generation survives, there will have no future generation or very little left. Their young ones are now malnourished and in sickness due to starvation etc, their poor health will not be enough to maintain future generation. The systematic approach has surely achieved its objective. Let the oppressors celebrate, let them rejoice in their actions, let them enjoy the moment (they shall enjoy for one century) but the time will come when they will be banished for the 3rd and final time with no return forever. When that time comes, one century later, there will be no hiding place, no rocks unturned. The world is watching now but they are weak. RIP Palestinians.
What a complete load of bollox dogchewkw!
What a complete load of bollox dogchewkw!
If the superpower is supporting the oppressors, who else dare to help the Palestinians? Nobody.
The superpower controls the world economy, the have the most advanced weapons and they set the rules.
How do you (referring to other countries) oppose the oppressors? By arms? You have none. By economy? You are incapable.
The oppressors do not negotiate nor can they negotiate.
The superpower controls the world economy, the have the most advanced weapons and they set the rules.
That will explain why the Taliban is now governing in Afghanistan ......the superpower which controls the world economy, has the most advanced weapons, and sets the rules, obviously decided that they should.
That will explain why the Taliban is now governing in Afghanistan ......the superpower which controls the world economy, has the most advanced weapons, and sets the rules, obviously decided that they should.
The Taliban is not economical viable so they let them be for now.
The Middle East is much easier to manage.
they let them be for now.
That's damn decent of our American cousins, I didn't think they even liked them!
The Middle East is much easier to manage.
Ah yes, the Middle East isn't complicated like Afghanistan.
Ah yes, the Middle East isn't complicated like Afghanistan.
Don't feed the troll, Ernie.
Don't feed the troll, Ernie.
Afghanistan
- Geographically, all their neighbours are nuclear armed and they have friends.
- The country is mountainous.
- They have no oil. Control oil. Control the world economy. i.e. petrol dollar. Now US is the world largest oil producer.
Middle East
- Geographically, none are nuclear armed. Even Iran (not nuclear armed) is weak due to nearly four decade of sanctions.
- The region has oil and with only one weak opposition left i.e. Iran. Control the oil, control the world economy.
- The rest of the Middle East countries are under US and Israeli "control".
- They have a staging ground in Israel (nuclear armed) and many other locations.
- Israel is the "master" of Middle East.
It looks like the figures from the Gaza health authorities, which the UK media likes to remind everyone is allegedly control by Hamas (they never mention that the IDF is controlled by Likud) might have been seriously under reporting the level of deaths caused by the Israeli onslaught
Almost 84,000 people died in Gaza between October 2023 and early January 2025 as a result of the Hamas–Israel war, estimates the first independent survey of deaths.
And that figure is obviously now 6 months out of date.
Old news ^^ cabinet ministers in the Israeli government have defended the use of rape by the IDF. Apparently rape is only unacceptable when allegedly committed by Hamas.
Although we have to take the Israeli government's word that Hamas has committed rape, unlike the case of rape committed by the IDF there is no damning evidence of rape committed by Hamas, it's a case of whether we trust the far-right genocidal Israeli government to tell the truth.
And of course unlike ministers in the Israeli government Hamas leaders don't try to publicly defend the use of rape.
That will be the Israeli government which the UK Labour Party supports and helps btw. And yes I know that not all Labour Party members do.
Old news ^^ cabinet ministers in the Israeli government have defended the use of rape by the IDF. Apparently rape is only unacceptable when allegedly committed by Hamas.
Perhaps old news to such as yourself but others may be informed
Link to article published in Haaretz yesterday from a historian who had access to the Gaza Strip
'Now I Understand Why Israel Is Denying Journalists Access to the Appalling Scene in Gaza'
BBC running an article from an unnamed Hamas security officer claiming details of the internal security situation and the forces looking to fill the void left by a weakened Hamas.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gk79xlzwjo
BibiC peddling anti-Hamas propaganda. Who’d of thunk it?
peddling anti-Hamas propaganda
The unnamed "security officer" making the allegations is apparently a lieutenant colonel in Hamas so presumably not anti-Hamas.
I have no idea what they mean by security officer, does the UK have lieutenant colonel security officers? Whatever it means it certainly sounds as if a security officer should be an authority on the situation.
What I find particularly interesting is this :
Let's be realistic here - there's barely anything left of the security structure. Most of the leadership, about 95%, are now dead... The active figures have all been killed," he said. "So really, what's stopping Israel from continuing this war?"
"Logically, it has to continue until the end"
Because it completely mirrors the Israeli government's position, ie, "Hamas is totally destroyed but we have to issue evacuation orders because we need to intensify the war".
He then goes on to comprehensively criticise Hamas's behaviour for the last 17 years. I don't know how he managed to contact the BBC about perhaps he should hand himself in to the IDF. Unless of course he is fictitious character created by the IDF? Does the IDF engage in misinformation?
I don't know how he managed to contact the BBC
Has Lisa Nandy been informed that the BibiC are broadcasting the views of a "Hamas security officer" ?
This thread is losing any sort of discussion. Sadly like many other STW threads it seems to be only allowed one viewpoint and any anything else gets quickly stomped on.
Let's be clear - what Israel is doing is terrible, it must be stopped and the world must be kept aware of what's happening.
That said, it is still possible to look at more detail and allow other opinions into the thread, with rational argument against them if necessary. I can genuinely see where people are coming from with the view of "what Israel is doing is so terrible we must focus on that to the exclusion of all else", even if I disagree with it myself (in the context of a forum thread!), but really it's getting ridiculous at this point.
Example: Hanchenkuchen's posts. Agree or disagree, but all I see is someone posting about how hatred is unhelpful and giving some views on the influences on Israeli views. Then some of the main contributors here apparently don't even bother to read it, one writes it off as "meaningless blether" and one ignores it simply because of who the poster might be. Key word "apparently".
It is starting to seem like any defence of any aspect of Israeli behaviour, any, however slight or tangential, is taken to mean support or excuse for Israel. It doesn't. This thread should contain more than just a list of Israel's latest atrocities, important as that is to keep at the forefront.
Let's concentrate on the real issue, that while you pontificte about "humanity" children are being starved, bombed and shot, and Israelis cheer.
The real issue is important (and that's too weak a word for it) and far and away the main thing here, but this is a thread on a mtb forum, why can't we also discuss the humanity of the wider situation?
I understand anger, I even understand hatred, especially if there is a personal element, but I don't think we should be blinded by it.
My view - the actions of the Israeli government and the IDF are so horrific that there is simply no place for any other discussion. there is no justification for it, it is not a "war"
Any justification they had for going into Gaza after the horrific attacks are long gone. Hamas is no longer a fighting force and has not been for a long time. the Israeli government are intent on killing or driving out of Gaza every single arab and also driving them out of the west bank. They have deliberately and systematically destroyed all civil infrastructure, killed journalists and political leaders, deliberately targeted healthcare and healthcare workers. they are using starvation as a tool to accomplish the removal dead or alive of every Palestinian
We need to call it out for what it is. The complete destruction of Gaza and the removal or killing of every arab in Gaza or the west bank.
The real issue is important (and that's too weak a word for it) and far and away the main thing here, but this is a thread on a mtb forum, why can't we also discuss the humanity of the wider situation?
"Humanity"? Too funny.
If we want to widen the discussion a little, let's consider the way that the genocide has been normalised. The IDF kill 100 Palestinians a day and it doesn't make the newspapers. The UK blatantly supplies military equipment to Israel - nothing happens. The national broadcaster is clearly prejudiced - nada. Peaceful protesters are arrested on terrorist charges - zip. Further afield, the Eu talks about trade sanctions - zilch. In Holland, Israeli football hooligans are let off after CCTV evidence off their violent racist rampage mysteriously gets deleted. Where exactly are we going? Is there space in this process for discussing "humanity"?
My view - the actions of the Israeli government and the IDF are so horrific that there is simply no place for any other discussion. there is no justification for it, it is not a "war"
Any justification they had for going into Gaza after the horrific attacks are long gone. Hamas is no longer a fighting force and has not been for a long time. the Israeli government are intent on killing or driving out of Gaza every single arab and also driving them out of the west bank. They have deliberately and systematically destroyed all civil infrastructure, killed journalists and political leaders, deliberately targeted healthcare and healthcare workers. they are using starvation as a tool to accomplish the removal dead or alive of every PalestinianWe need to call it out for what it is. The complete destruction of Gaza and the removal or killing of every arab in Gaza or the west bank.
Agreed. But why can't we discuss the socio-political influences that led up to it and that are preventing an end to it?
"Humanity"? Too funny.
If we want to widen the discussion a little, let's consider the way that the genocide has been normalised. The IDF kill 100 Palestinians a day and it doesn't make the newspapers. The UK blatantly supplies military equipment to Israel - nothing happens. The national broadcaster is clearly prejudiced - nada. Peaceful protesters are arrested on terrorist charges - zip. Further afield, the Eu talks about trade sanctions - zilch. In Holland, Israeli football hooligans are let off after CCTV evidence off their violent racist rampage mysteriously gets deleted. Where exactly are we going? Is there space in this process for discussing "humanity"?
Again agreed, but:
Is there space in this process for discussing "humanity"?
Yes. Why should we all get drawn into the circle of hatred? If I may remind you of the context:
So to blame all people of crimes that are being masterminded by a tiny elite, is to blame Humanity. And really, we're not so bad if we all get a fair slice each, are we?
So this is why I challenge attitudes such as blaming 'Israel' as though it's one homogenous entity with no nuance; as though it's some unfaceted monolith. Let's look within, to see where are own humanity lies, let's not get carried away and sucked into the whole spiral of hatred. Yes, of course we must abhor the genocide, but we mustn't abhor humanity. The only way forward for humanity is peace. Hatred does not lead to peace.
This thread should contain more than just a list of Israel's latest atrocities, important as that is to keep at the forefront.
Absolutely, everyone knows just how vile the genocidal far-right regime is, very few people need convincing of that. Besides the atrocities they commit on a daily basis are simply too many to list.
Which is why it is important to also focus on many other aspects of the genocide including the complicity of western governments, and also the widespread global opposition to it, not least from many Jews and Israelis such as Ilan Pappe, Miko Peled, and Gabor Mate.
This thread is losing any sort of discussion. Sadly like many other STW threads it seems to be only allowed one viewpoint and any anything else gets quickly stomped on.
Let's be clear - what Israel is doing is terrible, it must be stopped and the world must be kept aware of what's happening.
That said, it is still possible to look at more detail and allow other opinions into the thread, with rational argument against them if necessary. I can genuinely see where people are coming from with the view of "what Israel is doing is so terrible we must focus on that to the exclusion of all else", even if I disagree with it myself (in the context of a forum thread!), but really it's getting ridiculous at this point.
Example: Hanchenkuchen's posts. Agree or disagree, but all I see is someone posting about how hatred is unhelpful and giving some views on the influences on Israeli views. Then some of the main contributors here apparently don't even bother to read it, one writes it off as "meaningless blether" and one ignores it simply because of who the poster might be. Key word "apparently".
It is starting to seem like any defence of any aspect of Israeli behaviour, any, however slight or tangential, is taken to mean support or excuse for Israel. It doesn't. This thread should contain more than just a list of Israel's latest atrocities, important as that is to keep at the forefront.
Let's concentrate on the real issue, that while you pontificte about "humanity" children are being starved, bombed and shot, and Israelis cheer.
The real issue is important (and that's too weak a word for it) and far and away the main thing here, but this is a thread on a mtb forum, why can't we also discuss the humanity of the wider situation?
I understand anger, I even understand hatred, especially if there is a personal element, but I don't think we should be blinded by it.
Thank you Ossify. Nice to see some objectivity here.
I was at a music event on Saturday night, attended by lots of young people. It was a lot of fun; felt very warm and inclusive, very safe, and great sounds. Everyone had a fantastic time.
At one point, however, there was a loud chant of 'death death to the IDF'. I felt a little uncomfortable, but didn't feel threatened in any way, and it was much moire an outpouring of anger and frustration rather than actual hatred for other people. In that context, I saw nothing really 'offensive'. And knowing quite a number of people there, I know it wasn't hateful towards one particular group. In fact I know there were a number of Jewish people there, and saw some of them joining in.
All I felt was that the anger, whilst understandable, is misplaced and such energy could be better used in other ways. But hey; it was a group of people having a moment of solidarity and feeling part of being in the 'right' side. And that's fine. It was performative, in much the same way as many posts on here are. People want to be seen to be 'nice', in a world where people are increasingly divided and in conflict with one another. 'Look at me I'm a nice person I hate Israel'. Yes, we get it. You're not saying anything we don't already know. But shouting loudly about it just makes you a shouty person, it doesn't solve anything. So I get the sentiment of wanting to destroy a military organisation, many of whose leaders and members are guilty of horrific war crimes in a genocide. I want to see the Israeli regime crushed and replaced by people with just an ounce of humanity, at least.
But the key to actually getting anywhere near achieving peace in Palestine, is in applying intelligence, and by that, I mean emotional intelligence. To think beyond your instinctive reactions, to put aside your hatred, and having empathy for your 'enemy', even. And this means trying to understand the psyche of many Isreali people; why do they think the way they do? What forces influence how they think and act? Because only by understanding this, can you combat it and create an alternative. This was the fault of Labour in 2010, when Gordon Brown failed to empathise with Gillian Duffy, and dismissed her as a 'bigoted old woman (even if she was). Labour failed to apply any emotional intelligence there, and this led to a chain of events that has led us to where we are right now. With a Labour government still failing to apply any emotional intelligence to governing society.
It doesn't take much intelligence to hate. But it takes a lot of intelligence to understand.
It's all a bit of balance, really.
All I felt was that the anger, whilst understandable, is misplaced and such energy could be better used in other ways.
...
But shouting loudly about it just makes you a shouty person, it doesn't solve anything.
That's all very well and perhaps the perfect ideal, but on the other hand in the real world, we do need to shout about it in order to get anything actually done!
I think both are necessary. Both up to a point, of course.
'Look at me I'm a nice person I hate Israel'.
Once again you are conflating abhorrence at what the Israeli government and the IDF are doing with hatred for Israel. I have seen no antisemitism or hatred of Israel as an entity on here.
for what its worth one of my good friends did step over that line and I did have strong words with her about it.
Hanchenkuchen
I will commend you for sticking your head above the parapet if that is not a phrase too far 🙂
It's all a bit of balance, really.
All I felt was that the anger, whilst understandable, is misplaced and such energy could be better used in other ways.
...
But shouting loudly about it just makes you a shouty person, it doesn't solve anything.
That's all very well and perhaps the perfect ideal, but on the other hand in the real world, we do need to shout about it in order to get anything actually done!
I think both are necessary. Both up to a point, of course.
It all depends what you're shouting, and to whom. If it's at a demonstration outside the Israeli embassy, you're letting the people inside know how you feel, and expressing opposition to the actions of their government. If it's within the echo chamber of an internet forum thread such as this, you're really not achieving anything useful. The direct action of Palestine Action was far more effective at gaining attention than being rude to another person with whom you are otherwise broadly aligned on the internet.
I met some Israeli friends on Saturday, had a little chat with them; they were going to a silent vigil outside Kings Cross station the next day. This is a vigil held regularly by a group of Jewish people, many of them Israeli, to protest the genocide. There are other peaceful groups who I've mentioned elsewhere, who do similar. Their visible presence in a public place does more to help shift the narrative than any screaming on the internet does. This is why I'm saying that such energy can be used more effectively.
That group and other still get abuse form a few passers-by, in spite of being against the genocide. People who are ignorant and incapable of engaging any intelligence. Such people probably don't even understand the point of the protest. Some are just hateful. Which is very sad.
But the key to actually getting anywhere near achieving peace in Palestine, is in applying intelligence, and by that, I mean emotional intelligence.
So, in concrete terms, what have you done to achieve peace in Palestine?
'Look at me I'm a nice person I hate Israel'.
Once again you are conflating abhorrence at what the Israeli government and the IDF are doing with hatred for Israel. I have seen no antisemitism or hatred of Israel as an entity on here.
My opinion differs to yours. Just because you cannot see something yourself, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Perhaps your own subjectivity clouds your vision? This is why discussion is so important, contrary to what you are saying.
Any decent person can see that the genocide that is taking place is truly horrific, and that those masterminding it are truly evil. But any intelligent person can see that not all humans are evil, in fact most are actually quite nice ultimately. We all want the same things, we all need the same things. We really aren't that different. When people work that out, things are fine.
A few months ago, I went along to a 'Pro Israel' event in central London, to see for myself what it was all about, and to hopefully have some helpful conversations. I did speak to quite a few people, and what I found was a range of sentiments from 'please don't hate all Jews', to 'All Palestinians must die so that Israel can live'. Most people were just fairly ordinary, socially conservative, a bit naive and somewhat ignorant of the world much beyond their own social bubble. Much like most British folk then ime. But some, and I maintain this was a small minority, were utterly hateful scum. One such individual followed me around telling people not to talk to me as I was an 'antisemitic agitator'. He was eventually successful in having me thrown out by security who were for the most part polite, if not imo pretty thick. At one point, police officers intervened as the shouty man was being particularly belligerent and threatening. It's not nice when you participate in order to learn and become better informed, and a small minority of very vocal individuals try to shout you down.
So it was clear that certain people didn't want any form of 'dissent'. It was also clear that many people meekly went along with what the most vociferous demanded. Only one person actually challenged shouty man. But we can see this same pattern of behaviour endemic in our greater society; most people aren't hateful, but the fears and frustrations within them can be manipulated and exploited by a vocal minority. Racism doesn't have to be a conscious act; a lot of such fear lies deep within the subconscious, and comes to the surface at times of hardship and uncertainty. Whist it may not be obvious that such antisemitism exists on this thread, in my experience it is likely there is some, even if those who have such feelings aren't themselves aware of it. In the racist riots of last summer, many ordinary people were sucked into a whirlwind of anger and hatred, by just a few very loud groups and individuals, not least the likes of Farage and Yaxley Lennon. Whilst it must have been horrific for people from particularly vulnerable minority communities to suffer such a wave of anger towards them, the reality is that most of the time, things are relatively peaceful. And many of those who participated in the violence, would probably have got on with their lives afterwards, possibly questioning the point of it all. I would not condemn all those who took part, as 'racists', merely ignorant and easily led. And I apply the same rationale to many Israelis. People are people, and given the right support and resources, are generally decent. And this is hope we must cling onto if we are to achieve any peace in our world.
I also suspect that most of us understand the roots of this:
Inter-generational trauma
Indoctrination in the Israeli education system and other places ( I have a jewish friend who is completely indoctrinated and sees arabs as subhuman. He has never been to Israel)
A political system that gives excessive power to extremists
You could probably add perfidious Albion to that list. The british effed things up in the middle east for sure
More evidence that Israeli soldiers committing war crimes are simply following orders.
Who would have thought that the "Nuremberg Defence" would still be topical almost 80 years later?
https://news.sky.com/story/israeli-soldier-describes-arbitrary-killing-of-civilians-in-gaza-13393422
"For sure, no terrorists there," he said. "Every commander can choose for himself what he does. So it's kind of like the Wild West. So, some commanders can really decide to do war crimes and bad things and don't face the consequences of that."
Hanchenkuchen
You said "hate Isreal" in reference to folk on here. That is conflating abhorrence at the actions of the government and the IDF with hatred of a nation. You are actually doing what you accuse others of. You are not listening
with that I am out.
Whist it may not be obvious that such antisemitism exists on this thread, in my experience it is likely there is some, even if those who have such feelings aren't themselves aware of it.
Sorry that cannot go unchallenged. You are accusing folk of being antisemitic for expressing disgust at the actions of the Iseali government and the IDF. Thats a nasty accusation to make and an attack line used by the apologists for the actions of the Israeli government. Just have a think about that.
