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bonkers the Hamas leadership’s plans for the October attacks were – dividing up Israeli land into cantons and planning out which administrators were going to be appointed
If Hamas are indeed a product of the Israeli intelligence services, that's an understandable aim 😉
"Israel do not seem to accept the truism that when you negotiate you have to do so with your enemies. And in fact so far they have been justified because the negative consequences have been (relatively) minimal. The end point they seem to have in mind..."
I agree with what you say here in modern years (although tbf there was a lot of negotiating with the PLO in the 1990s, despite its involvement in some terrible atrocities). I am not sure "Israel" has actually thought about an endpoint: different PMs and parties have simply kicked the can down the road, happy to preserve an interim status where the PNA is weak and inept, but it wasn't really kicking off or disrupting Israeli life too much. And once you build walls and import immigrant labour to work in factories and farms, then you don't even need to deal with individual Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza so much. Conversely, reaching a final peace deal of any sort would have involved selling it to the peaceniks (who wanted a 2 state solution) and the hard right (who wanted a 1 state solution from the river to the sea, preferably accompanied by some population transfer), which seems like hard work, and also involves working out WTF happens with the right of return, regularisation of land borders and ownership, and demilitarisation, and the status if Jerusalem.
"If Hamas are indeed a product of the Israeli intelligence services..."
But they're not, the picture is much more complicated, and that's just the kind of oversimplification that paves the way to lazy conspiracy theories in which the Israelis are behind everything. Buying into stuff that requires you to believe that even Israel's failures (like the October attacks) are its successes because it's so meticulous and perfect in its strategy so that everything comes up how the Israeli deep state wants it.
While that's consistent with decades of PR out of the Shin Bet and others, reading sensible historical analysis shows that Israeli leaders are capable of being just as inept, foolish and short-sighted as our own - almost if they're just regular people after all... This is a country of 10 million people, it's not a very big talent pool...
Once things become too complicated, no solution will ever be found...
Is Israel an apartheid state that since formation has been colonizing lands, and displacing people from their homes through violence and coercion?
Well yes, but it's more complicated than that etc etc
A solution can be found, but it needs compromise on both sides.
I'm a bit out of my depth amongst the intellectual big hitters here, so am only likely to post occasionally, but wanted to flag up Lyse Doucet's interview with Ehud Barak (ex-israeli Prime Minister) on the BBC News.
I thought he was very tolerant & hugely sensible and seemingly pro a true 2 state solution (although I'm not sure he's keen on Palestinian statehood).
Having sensible people in power (on both sides) would make such a difference!
The Israeli government has been largely against compromise and has actively supported the removal by force of Palestinians on the west bank thus scuppering a two state solution as they would need to return the west bank land to Palestinian control which would entail removing the stettlers by force which would be very difficult physically and politically
On that topic. I’ve not seen much transparency on the supply to Isreal from the US’s war reserve stock held in Israel, I’ve seen suggestions its happening but no real details on how much. I’m guessing the real size of the reserve is going to remain secret.
Dont suppose you’ve seen any credible sources on that?
It was complicated in Jan 2023 when the US moved part of the US stockpiles from Israel to Ukraine; various sources agreed that 300,000 155mm artillery shells were transferred. The US also dipped into stock held in SKorea to supply Ukraine.
The actual quantities aren't freely available but a US Congress report is... https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/RL/RL33222 On p.28 it says, "If the U.S. military has contributed the maximum amount legally permitted in each applicable fiscal year, then the non-inflation-adjusted value of materiel stored in Israel would currently stand at $4.4 billion."
Israel had a complex relationship with Russia and Ukraine at the time and wouldn't supply weapons to Ukraine because they needed access to Syria for operations there.
The US has transferred lots of smaller quantities of weapons to Israel since October, the Times of Israel report that >100 transfers have been made and the smaller quantities mean that approval isn't needed from US Congress https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-us-quietly-approved-more-than-100-arms-sales-to-israel-since-october-7/
This is a facetious suggestion borne out of frustration at how little progress there's been for decades now, but perhaps China Miéville has a solution: [url] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_%26_the_City [/url]
Personally, i don't see this conflict coming to a decent conclusion in my lifetime, it's just got too many moving parts to it.
"The Israeli government has been largely against compromise and has actively supported the removal by force of Palestinians on the west bank thus scuppering a two state solution as they would need to return the west bank land to Palestinian control which would entail removing the stettlers by force which would be very difficult physically and politically..."
And yet that's exactly what Israel did to all the Gaza settlements when it withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Despite what the settlers want, evidently the presence of settlements isn't the end of the conversation.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
I don't really want to post YouTube vids as they can get a bit tiresome so I started to precis what I watched but decided its better to hear directly from those involved
Israel's government is in a precarious state with Israel's Courts and this seems likely to worsen within a fairly short time. The question is how this is likely to effect the continuing war.
An exemption for certain Jewish religious communities from military service that has existed since the Jewish State’s founding in 1948 was brought to an end by Israel's High Court of Justice in 2017. The government and courts have run out of extensions and the ruling came into effect at the end of March 2024 and Benjamin Netanyahu will have to produce a legally and politically acceptable plan by the end of this month.
His problem is that two of Israel's coalition parties hold 1/4 of the seats in his emergency government and oppose the ending of the exemption. In addition, Chief Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef has said, "If you force us to go to the army, we’ll all move abroad" and is speaking for 12% of the population.
Shlomit Ravitsky Tur-Paz, an expert on the intersections of religion and state, thinks that the plan won't be agreed and either an extension will be granted by the Court or the government will fall... https://forward.com/news/598903/israel-haredi-draft-exemption-military/
Benjamin Netanyahu has another problem with the courts and he's been on trial since 2020 for fraud and bribery. The trial has continued throughout the war. He's run out of extensions, covid, reduced court sessions due to war and claims of immunity
Who mentioned lots of moving parts?
So if Netanyahu is ousted, will that mean a swift end to the bombardment of Gaza and an end to the violent and coercive displacement of people from their homes?
(which has been happening since the state of Israel was founded in 1948)
So if Netanyahu is ousted, will that mean a swift end to the bombardment of Gaza and an end to the violent and coercive displacement of people from their homes?
(which has been happening since the state of Israel was founded in 1948)
Furthermore, how has Netanyahu and Israel in general bolstered such consistent international support, despite regular violations of international law?
"Chief Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef has said, “If you force us to go to the army, we’ll all move abroad” and is speaking for 12% of the population."
Would the other 88% of the Israeli population be very upset about that?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-new-state-budget-favors-haredim-and-hurts-them/
^^
Is this the group who are excluded from military service and spend their time reading their holy scripture?
When Isreal was founded they made up a very small percentage of the population, something like 3-5%. Now they are the fastest growing group within Israel.
Are they not also the least Zionist group is Isrealis?
I'm someone who is determinedly "anti-religon" (of any flavour) so I don't understand some of the context/history around religion, history, wars and occupation in the Middle East.
Can anyone suggest some unbiased, factual reading to bring me up-to-speed?
I'd love to know:
Does the Jewish faith pre-date Christianity?
If so, what are the main differences between the three main faiths? (Jewish, Christianity, Islam)
Who has "ruled" the areas now called Israel and Palestine since the fall of the Roman Empire?
(I'm a product of the English junior CofE/Comp school system from 40+ years ago who had zero interest in religion or history - all I really know is the Mary popped baby Jesus out in 0000 AD in Bethlehem whilst the Romans were in charge and, from other threads here, I seem to remember that Islam started around 600 AD but I have no other context or knowledge of the history of the area)
Does the Jewish faith pre-date Christianity?
yes- Jesus was a Jew. The first bit of the Christian Bible “Old Testament “‘is the Jewish Torah.
If so, what are the main differences between the three main faiths? (Jewish, Christianity, Islam)
can’t say what all the main differences are- Islam recognise Jesus, but think he is a prophet not the son of God cos that’s blasphemous. They all believe in the same god - referred to as Abrahamic the character Abraham is in all 3 religious texts.
Not sure on Jews view of Jesus- probably don’t rate him as his teachings are a bit contra and in theory are the end of Judaism.
Part of their persecution through the ages by Christians has been because they crucified him. The term Messiah that’s applied to Jesus in Christianity means anointed one/saviour in Hebrew. Jewish prophecy told of a great leader that would unite the tribes/rebuild the Jerusalem temple etc. just before JC there was a Jewish guerilla fighter that harassed the Romans (no, not Brian) and he was referred as the messiah as they thought he would free them from Rome.
Don’t think the Romans really left - the Roman Empire of Julius Caesar et al became the Roman Catholic Church with the Pope in charge of the killing and excess instead of an Emperor. Part of the popes title Pontiflex Maximus is taken from ancient Rome.
Then Islam swept the area and built mosques etc hence the Crusades to kick out the Muslims out of “our holy site”
at some stage possibly after WWI and the fall of the Ottoman Empire,the English got involved in occupation (as is their wont).
Jewish People had been fleeing to a Palestine since the late 1800s due to persecution. There had been some tension but under ottoman rule it was contained . There had been calls for a Jewish State even before the end of WWII. Tensions grew after and Jews & Arabs were in conflict. This was while England still had control so were overseeing both sides. I think Jewish agitators killed some English soldiers. When the UN Announcement in 1947(?) came to divide the area, Jews vs Arabs, England walked away & it kicked off and set in train the current state of affairs.
im not an expert btw, just an interest in history and a lot of it was covered in my school.
Are they not also the least Zionist group is Isrealis?
To over simplify, they thought that they and their faith were safest in Europe, so were not Zionists at all. And then Europe proved them wrong and they were all but wiped out, and those remaining hove mostly since changed their mind about the need need for Israel… where their numbers, teachings and way of life have now expanded greatly.
The majority now think of Israel in practical (positive) terms… but not as an article of faith. A minority do consider the timing of its creation wrong (too early), and those who sought to create it wrong (because of claims by some Zionists about a divine right that they consider blasphemous), and campaign against it. These campaigners are noisy enough to get a lot of attention in the USA and elsewhere… but don’t confuse that noise for numbers.
Thanks @FB-ATB. Very useful!
Next dumb questions:
What is "Zion"? Just a general term for home land for Jews??
Don’t think the Romans really left – the Roman Empire of Julius Caesar et al became the Roman Catholic Church with the Pope in charge of the killing and excess instead of an Emperor. Part of the popes title Pontiflex Maximus is taken from ancient Rome.
Probably better framed with the context of being ruled by the Byzantines rather than Rome, Theodosius was the last Emperor of a unified east/west Empire, ended in 395.
I'm actually not sure how much influence the Eastern Orthodox church had on the region (the schism being 11th century).
at some stage possibly after WWI and the fall of the Ottoman Empire,the English got involved in occupation (as is their wont).
Britain didn't wait, this is where TE Lawrence's story is, the Arab Revolt against the Ottomans, leading straight into Sykes Picot/Balfour. An example of an ally being promised independence and that promise not being worth anything.
When Isreal was founded they made up a very small percentage of the population, something like 3-5%. Now they are the fastest growing group within Isreal
I have a cousin who lives in Isreal. We were chatting just after the Hamas attack about military service in the future for her two boys and she was very anti them going in the army and said “there’s always some religious thing you can pull to avoid going in the army” so perhaps that’s a reason for the growth and why more secular Israelis are pissed off with the orthodox crew.
Not sure on Jews view of Jesus
Mainstream Jewish view is - Mleh*. There is however, the Jews for Jesus. which is y'know, bit weird.
*Official Rabbinic perspective - True story.
im not an expert btw, just an interest in history and a lot of it was covered in my school.
An English school I assume rather than British 🙄
Part of their persecution through the ages by Christians has been because they crucified him
I'm going to demonstrate my ignorance here...but didn't the Romans crucify Jesus?
An English school I assume rather than British 🙄
why so? Yes I was taught in a school in England, but I’m Welsh- the first country the English invaded and subjugated and will probably be the last to regain independence from them if ever. So whenever I talk about colonialism I prefer to put the English as the main drivers.
Does the Jewish faith pre-date Christianity?
Yes. The old testament is some of the Jewish religious texts with the new testament being the Christian bolt on (its a bit more messy than that around how the different books were selected but works at a high level).
If so, what are the main differences between the three main faiths? (Jewish, Christianity, Islam)
In terms of actual practice it gets very lengthy especially since you then have all the differences inside those faiths but at a basic level.
Judaism is still waiting for its Messiah to fulfil the various prophecies (again simplistic and some sects disagree).
Christianity claims Christ was that Messiah.
Islam claims although Christ was an important prophet it is Mohammed who was the final and most important prophet.
Who has “ruled” the areas now called Israel and Palestine since the fall of the Roman Empire?
After the fall of the western Roman Empire the Eastern (aka the Byzantines) continued to rule for a couple of hundred years.
It was then ruled by a variety of Islam caliphates with a brief interlude of Crusader domination until the Mamluks captured the region and ruled for several hundred years before the Ottoman empire captured it in the 15th century. They kept power until WW1 at which point it came under British control for the next 30 years or so.
but didn’t the Romans crucify Jesus?
Yeah but the were 'forced' to by the crowd - "Welease Woderwick" - that bit. It was convenient for the Jewish authorities to get rid, and it was easier to use the Womans to do their dirty work.
So y'know, I'd imagine that didn't go down well.
Would the other 88% of the Israeli population be very upset about that?
That isn't really the point. Benjamin Netanyahu only holds power because of ultra-orthodox support and, surprisingly, the Knesset went into Spring recess yesterday (8th) until May 19th, which kicks the can down the road. If an agreement can't be reached after recess there is potential for political upheaval and a change to the right-wing coalition by June
The war is currently being fought on several fronts with fighting in Gaza, raids on Syria and clashes with Yemen (Houthi), Lebanon (Hezbollah) and in the occupied-West Bank and needs military personnel.
The events of Oct 7th saw 3000 Haredi men enlist in non-combat roles as drivers, S&R and emergency services, which was unprecedented and may signal a change in attitude. During WW2 Private First Class Desmond Thomas Doss won two Bronze Stars and a Medal of Honor for his bravery in Okinawa, Guam and Leyte, despite never carrying a weapon, so, yes, Israel may be poorer without the Haredi population.
"You mean people, right? Good old people, causing carnage around the world for millennia."
Where once a dispute could be solved by the volume and intensity of grunts, or basic physical strength, over time the art of war has evolved to encompass the whole of society, from mass media spewing propaganda to justify and instigate the invasion of entire countries half the world away, to mass production of weapons and ammunition, which need to be used to keep the production lines running.
The share prices of many corporate giants rely on constant war and help to prop up the constant economic growth to which we're so accustomed; whilst at one end, it employs people and feeds their families, at the other, it mutilates and destroys life from newborn infants all the way through to grandmothers, who've seen their families grow, only to be torn apart on the whims of men in suits.
Hey ho, it's just collateral damage at the end of the day and let's not forget, between the valuable data gained from Israel's weapons program and the leverage gained on securing valuable resources, human lives are plentiful and not nearly as important as the profit they stand in the way of.
I prefer to put the English as the main drivers.
Rather assumes that there were no non English people at the heart of government....like, I dunno....David Lloyd-George, for example. I assume your history lessons didn't include the Balfour Declaration 🙄
After her family has been mutilated and killed, how does the Grandmother (who has seen her homeland constantly shrink, before being walled in and kept under military blockade) go about retaliating against those who encourage and supply Israel's constant need for heavy weaponry?
Anyone ever seen a prehistoric cave painting depicting man on man combat? It was the advent of private property that led to wars, slavery and exploitation.
Whilst a lot of this debate is complex, there is one thing which is not - there is no excuse for genocide.
Just checking in and making sure everything is going ok. Reminder to those new to this thread. Read my OP before you contribute to this topic.
I'm people and I'm pretty sure I've not carnaged anything.
Silly, reductionist perspective.
Anyone ever seen a prehistoric cave painting depicting man on man combat?
Don't need a cave painting, got Otzi. (despite the ongoing studies, most researchers now think he was killed/murdered) The idea that we've emerged from some idyllic primitive state of love and friendship to war because of our love of 'stuff' is probably for the birds.
Anyone ever seen a prehistoric cave painting depicting man on man combat? It was the advent of private property that led to wars, slavery and exploitation.
That is a claim worthy of its own thread.
The level of violence in ancient societies, especially hunter gatherer, is unclear and there are strong advocates for both it was a lovely place vs it was extremely violent.
Certainly there is evidence for conflict going back way into prehistory. Skeletons with weapon damage (including arrow/spear heads still embedded) and there are actually some cave paintings showing people pierced by either arrows or darts although without context of why.