Seems like C4 news/Secunder Karmani are the only news outlet that’s been active in attempting to show what’s going on with the settler violence and yet more land grabs
That’s not what you said. You made a fairly offensive racial slur.
That "delusion is an Israeli trait"? Are you actually serious?* There is nothing racial about that comment, firstly 'Israeli' isn't a race and secondly the idea that Hamas can be defeated and everything afterwards will be all hunky dory is totally delusional stuff imo.
The zionist project is collapsing, it is facing its greatest crisis in nearly 80 years. Going into Gaza and slaughtering thousands of Palestinians isn't going to solve any problems, in fact it will make the situation far worse for Israel.
I did point out that although the majority appear to be delusional a large portion of Israeli society doesn't seem to be - namely the 25% who according to an Israeli newspaper have said that they would rather live somewhere other than Israel.
So yes I very much believe that Israelis are as a whole delusional. From those who believe that Hamas can be defeated to those who believe that they don't even need to fight because God will step in and save them.
In fact it is indeed this inability to grasp reality that will imo contribute so much to the eventual demise of the failed zionist experiment.
* I realised after asking that question that of course you are serious - I criticised Israelis and Israeli society. Anyone who criticises israelis and Israeli society is automatically accused of being racist. Anyone and everyone, right up to the United Nations and the International Court of Justice.
The mask is starting to slip
There has never been any mask. I have always been completely honest and open in my staunch opposition to zionism and the Israeli apartheid state.
I have never attempted to hide it.
As fierce opponents of the PLO which controls the civilian administration in Occupied West Bank Hamas has never had any significant presence in that part of Palestine, and certainly no activity.
Yet despite that the Israelis have killed over 650 Palestinians in Occupied West Bank since they launched their slaughter on Gaza.
And now the IDF has launched a major military offensive against at least four West Bank cities and refugee camps in what they call a "counterterrorism" operation against Hamas to dismantle their 'terror infrastructures".
So nearly a year after Netanyahu announced that the IDF would destroy Hamas in Gaza and return captive Israelis his regime is now publicly claiming that Hamas's influence has spread to the Occupied West Bank.
He could of course be lying, it is after all what zionists do, and he very probably is. But it does reflect just how desperate the situation is for them.
The idea that there can ever be peace without justice is delusionary, although Netanyahu undoubtedly knows that.
his regime is now publicly claiming that Hamas’s influence has spread to the Occupied West Bank.
I'm sure it has. As someone commented on the (I think?) same C4 news item referenced above, support for militancy is an inevitable result of the brutal occupation.
The Houthis attacked the Greek-flagged oil products tanker Sounion in the Red Sea between Yemen and Eritrea last week.
The Houthis disabled the vessel, which was abandoned by the crew, and then returned to deliberately destroy it, which is a change of tactics. Tugs sent out to the vessel have been threatened by the Houthis
The Pentagon believes that the vessel is now leaking oil products into the Red Sea, which could pose a huge environmental disaster, four-times that of the Exxon Valdez for scale. This will massively effect communities that rely on the sea for their livelihood https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9wjx5ndnvdo
I said much earlier on this thread that an environmental disaster was a danger of their attacks. I didn't anticipate that they'd deliberately set additional charges to ensure a calamity
And now the IDF has launched a major military offensive against at least four West Bank cities and refugee camps in what they call a “counterterrorism” operation against Hamas to dismantle their ‘terror infrastructures”.
So nearly a year after Netanyahu announced that the IDF would destroy Hamas in Gaza and return captive Israelis his regime is now publicly claiming that Hamas’s influence has spread to the Occupied West Bank.
I thought the recent raids were aimed at Iran-backed terrorist infrastructure, whoever they are locally, not (just) Hamas? And mainly in response to the recent suicide bombing, done jointly by Hamas and Islamic Jihad (who are in the West Bank).
Here's the US National Intelligence office stating that Hamas has a presence in the West Bank (report dated 2014) https://www.dni.gov/nctc/groups/hamas.html
Regardless of what Israel is doing, your portrayal of it is misleading at best.
Another thinly veiled accusation of anti-semitism. I’m beginning to spot a pattern …
I'm not the one throwing around derogatory generalisations about an entire nation and then doubling down, but crack on with your pattern spotting I guess.
I’m not the one throwing around derogatory generalisations about an entire nation and then doubling down, but crack on with your pattern spotting I guess.
That's the thing about "democracy" - it provides a dataset which allows you to make generalisations with a certain degree of validity. What is actually derogatory is accusing someone of racism without foundation.
But while you're quibbling about words, the Israelis have killed a few more Palestinians.
I’m not the one throwing around derogatory generalisations about an entire nation
You should check out some of what some of the threads on stw say about Americans, Russians, and of course even the British population. If you want sweeping and derogatory generalisations.
And yes, I am sticking to my comment that Israelis are delusionary, well the majority are imo, it would appear that at least 25% have smelt the coffee.
Which as I repeat is hardly surprising considering the lies they are constantly fed on a daily basis by far-right politicians.
So now the IDF is conducting operations in the West Bank.
At what point is it OK to start calling this a genocide?
At what point is it OK to start calling this a genocide?
Depends on what side of the [s]fence[/s] wall you’re looking at
I thought the recent raids were aimed at Iran-backed terrorist infrastructure, whoever they are locally, not (just) Hamas?
Firstly this are more than just "raids", this is a large-scale military operation. Secondly it is the PLO which operates in Occupied West Bank not Hamas.
The PLO is a secular organisation whose largest faction Fatah is affiliated to the Party of European Socialists, the same as the UK Labour Party, although zionists might well call it a terrorist organisation. The clerics of the theocratic regime in Tehran do not support the secular PLO.
The Iranian connection claim made by Netanyahu's government is a smokescreen. The stated aim of neo-fascist ministers in the current far-right Israeli government is the eventual full annexation of Occupied West Bank and its ethnic cleansing.
The current military operations by the IDF in Occupied West Bank should be seen in that context. As indeed should the deaths of over 650 West Bank Palestinian in the last 11 months by the IDF and their Israeli terrorist partners, aka as "armed settlers". Along with the huge expansion of illegal settlements (a war crime under the Geneva Convention) what we are witnessing is simply the territorial growth of Israel as it seeks further lebensraum.
Along with the huge expansion of illegal settlements (a war crime under the Geneva Convention) what we are witnessing is simply the territorial growth of Israel as it seeks further lebensraum.
Another 20,000 homes passed for building in the West Bank since Oct 7th
what we are witnessing is simply the territorial growth of Israel as it seeks further lebensraum
I'm sure you could make this point without reaching for the German.
It is a very specific term coined by Germans to describe a specific concept. I would also use the term blitzkrieg if it was appropriate. Or coup d'etat, or other terms with foreign origins.
It is a very specific term coined by Germans to describe a specific concept. I would also use the term blitzkrieg if it was appropriate. Or coup d’etat, or other terms with foreign origins.
Of course. But used by you with full knowledge of who coined it and when, and that people would notice that connection here. Plausible deniability is all very well, but it's still trolling. I daresay you could've found some other way of getting the point across.
"Hmm, how can I compare Israel to the Nazis without actually saying so? Aha! I'm not racist, but..."
(NB: I don't think you are racist. But I do think you push the limits sometimes and have such a strong hatred of Israel that it blinds you to other possibilities or explanations of things. It's possible to have different points of view without excusing what Israel's doing, and to believe that it might have good/valid reasons for SOME acts, even if it goes about them in the wrong way.)
Seeing as everyone seems to wants to talk about the Nazi's, have we done Haj Amin al-Husseini yet? .
Nice attempt inkster but Al-Husseini has been dead for decades and is irrelevant to the conflict, how about we talk about Ben-Gvir instead as his position in the current government is actually relevant to what is going on in Gaza and the West Bank land grabs.
On the day that a number of European countries recognised a Palestinian state, Ben-Gvir entered the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound and said "We will not allow any surrender that would even include a declaration of a Palestinian state" and that the mosque site belongs "only to the State of Israel".
Noted Israeli sociologist Eva Illouz has said Ben-Gvir represents "Jewish fascism".
But used by you with full knowledge of who coined it
I wonder if you know who coined it ? It was a commonly used term in German politics in the 1890s and continued right up until the end of WW2. It was used in the context of Greater Germany and it is totally appropriate to use it in the context of Greater Israel.
You do not deny that the Tel Aviv government has a policy of expanding Israel's borders do you?
The comparison with pre-1945 Germany is totally reasonable. And if you are suggesting that I am making comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany of course I am and of course there are some obvious comparisons.
For a start I have referred to current Israeli government ministers as fascist. The IDF uses some tactics similar to those used by the nazis in occupied territories, including collective punishments, rounding up and incarcerating innocent civilians, and withholding essential necessities such as food. Plus of course zionists, like the nazis, attach far less values to the lives of those whose lands they have invaded, as you would expect from people who consider themselves to be superior.
Plus of course lebensraum, a term used to describe an expansionist policy which you apparently feel the English term "living space" would be more appropriate. Do you say "lighting war" instead blitzkrieg?
It is both legitimate and necessary to draw attention to the similarities between German fascists and contemporary Israeli fascists, something which anti-zionist Jews are particularly keen to do.
The obvious example of that is Gerald Kaufman who famously made a direct comparison between modern day Israel and nazi Germany in a speech he made from the floor of the House of Commons. Kaufman lost family in the holocaust including his grandmother so this was not a man who made the comparison lightly.
I have been on something like 15 or 16 national demonstrations in support of Palestine in the last 11 months, every single one of them has had a significant Jewish presence. By far the most reoccurring reference on the banners and placards of those marching with the Jewish Bloc is the reference to the holocaust.
It was a commonly used term in German politics in the 1890s and continued right up until the end of WW2
Why do you think that the term went out of use with the end of WW2? I think that you're straying close to the edge
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis. https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/a-definition-of-antisemitism
Please stop, I find it offensive
For anyone who hasn't already seen it here is a short speech by Gerald Kaufman he makes a direct comparison between modern Israel and nazi Germany
Why do you think that the term went out of use with the end of WW2?
Because the whole concept of having a greater whatever country and the argument of needing living space/lebensraum went out of fashion after WW2?
The policy of greater living space is still very popular with zionists though. Have you seen what they are doing right now in Occupied West Bank?
Apparently Israel is still too small, despite relentless new territorial claims.
Please stop, I find it offensive
Really? What I find offensive is quibbling about words while people are being shot, bombed, starved, imprisoned, tortured, their houses, schools and hospitals destroyed.
Because the whole concept of having a greater whatever country and the argument of needing living space/******** went out of fashion after WW2?
How about the end of the Nazi era, war crimes trials, etc.
I cant report the post because it's yet another feature that doesn't work here, hopefully the mods will have a look ( @Drac )
Really? What I find offensive is quibbling about words while people are being shot, bombed, starved, imprisoned, tortured, their houses, schools and hospitals destroyed.
Posted 7 minutes ago
Yeah, call it for what is is and appears to be - Genocide.
TBH I've always found that definition of antisemitism a bit weird, and I'm Jewish. If someone's behaving like a Nazi, then they are behaving like a Nazi, whoever they are. Although on the other hand people do tend to jump towards Nazis as a comparison (as opposed to any other fascist/oppressor throughout history), precisely because of the Jewish history with the Holocaust. Therefore equating Israel with Jews. Which again is somewhat understandable, but can also be actual anti-semitism... It's a complicated minefield. I'm starting to ramble...
Anyway, it's nothing to do with lebensraum. Unless you think Israel wants to start taking over chunks f neighbouring countries. It's a fight over who owns the historic land of Israel, which includes the West Bank and Gaza. Granted the definition of "historic" might be up for debate but Israel's not really expansionist in the same way as (for a totally random example) Nazi Germany was.
I cant report the post because it’s yet another feature that doesn’t work here, hopefully the mods will have a look ( @Drac )
What do you want to report, that someone has made a reference to nazi Germany when discussing the far-right Israeli government?
Presumably you would hit the report button if someone made the comparison between Nigel Farage and the Nazis? Netanyahu makes Nigel Farage look like a cuddly liberal.
At least one senior Israeli minister has described himself as a fascist, Israel is widely considered to be an apartheid state. Your attempts to stifle people expressing their opinions of a regime which is racist and very clearly commits war crimes and crimes against humanity smacks of desperation.
If Gerald Kaufman can make a direct comparison between modern Israel and nazi Germany then so can anyone else. Or do you also want to report the video which I posted of a speech made by Kaufman from the floor of the House of Commons?
Ad Hominem is where someone starts to attack the individual rather than put forward their argument. That's happened today and it's the way threads like this get shut down.
This topic is contentious and understandably so. BUT, if you insult another user you will end up being banned and this thread could be shut down. If you find yourself getting angry... STOP TYPING. Step away. Come back to it later.
Thing is Hitler did go in for genocide whereas other fascist dictators like Mussolini, Salazar or Franco were awful oppressors but not quite in the same way. Israel has always been iffy about defining its borders due to its aspirations for an expansionist 'greater Israel' since 1948. I remember discussing this in a tutorial with Michael Clark (RUSI etc, hardly a leftwinger) in 1977, it's nothing new. Perhaps we should tone down the hyperbole by referring to Israel 'mowing the lawn' (sounds quite green doesn't it).
Anyway, it’s nothing to do with lebensraum. Unless you think Israel wants to start taking over chunks f neighbouring countries.
Well I didn't think anyone would deny that Israeli zionists had expansionist policies, and not least when you consider how much Israel has expanded and is expanding, but apparently I was wrong.
Let's be clear what we are talking about. Bezalel Smotrich is a very senior Israeli cabinet minister, he is in fact the Israeli chancellor of the exchequer. He has described himself as being fascist. Don't believe me? Google it then.
Even before things kicked off on Oct 7 last year Smotrich publicly produced a map of "Greater Israel"
Jordan condemns far-right Israeli minister over "Greater Israel" map
https://www.axios.com/2023/03/20/bezalel-smotrich-jordan-greater-israel-map-palestinians
What drew a lot of attention, however, was the map on the podium from which Smotrich spoke. It showed "Greater Israel" with Jordan and the West Bank as part of Israel's borders.
And listen to this:
During his speech, he said there is no such thing as a Palestinian people.
Yup, that's right, I know it sounds totally unbelievable but Smotrich claims that there is no such thing as the Palestinian people. Which of course it means that if the Palestinians don't exist then Palestinian land cannot by definition exist. How convenient.
I believe it is totally reasonable to make comparisons with the views of the genocidal fascist Smotrich and some of the policies of the Nazis.
Smotrich is not some fringe politician, he holds one of the great offices of state in Israel, he is very much representative of the extreme far-right government of Israel.
Yes it is hard to stomach the comparison between the zionist far-right and the Nazis, in the video Gerald Kaufman doesn't appear to find the experience particularly pleasant. But not only is reasonable to do so it also vital to make it.
this thread is getting a bit Ken Livingstone
Just a quick reminder that Israel are ****s...
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/08/23/middleeast/israel-gaza-water-shortages-heatwave-crisis-intl
It seems the IDF (previously known as “the most moral army in the world”) have deemed the World Food Program a legitimate target.
“Despite being clearly marked and receiving multiple clearances by Israeli authorities to approach, the vehicle was directly struck by gunfire as it was moving toward an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) checkpoint,” the statement by the agency read.
Just a quick reminder that Israel are ****…
Deliberate targeting of civilian infrastructure is a war crime so I expect the rule of law to apply.
Ha…..like **** it will, they’ll lie….and lie….and lie….and lie….
Deliberate targeting of civilian infrastructure is a war crime so I expect the rule of law to apply.
You know that you are talking about Israel, right?
You know that you are talking about Israel, right?
You realise I was taking the piss, right?
No I hadn't.
No I hadn’t.
Really?…….this is all getting a bit meta for me
What do you want to report, that someone has made a reference to nazi Germany when discussing the far-right Israeli government?
It wasn't that, as you well know.
It was a remark that is very close to antisemitism, using words that were highlighted as such by at least three independent posts over a period of several hours
That you carried on defending its use after the first calling out is deliberate when you could have used other less tone-deaf words,
"Along with the huge expansion of illegal settlements (a war crime under the Geneva Convention) what we are witnessing is simply the territorial growth of Israel"
would have done the job quite adequately
At what point is it OK to start calling this a genocide?
Depends on what side of the fence wall you’re looking at
The objective one.
Thing is Hitler did go in for genocide whereas other fascist dictators like Mussolini, Salazar or Franco were awful oppressors but not quite in the same way.
Mussolini did conduct a genocide in Ethiopia/Eritrea and it was with the aim of eradicating/enslaving a population to replace them with Italian settlers. Obviously in terms of scale nothing like Germany though.
Slight derail in any case.
There's no way Netanyahu can have any defence against collective punishment and targeting civilian infrastructure - both war crimes in their own right.
Going into the West Bank feels to me like "let's sort this once and for all" to me - which also has a German translation that I won't use.
Israel under Netanyahu is doing despicable things that have nothing to do with 7th October any more. If they weren't nuclear armed and a client state of 'the west' the actions of the UK/US would be very different.
It was a remark that is very close to antisemitism, using words that were highlighted as such by at least three independent posts over a period of several hours
Lebensraum? I appreciate that you might not like the term, especially if you support zionism, because it has connotations with the German far-right's quest in the 1930s for a Greater Germany, but firstly I feel it is totally appropriate because as my earlier link shows the Israeli far-right has a policy of creating a Greater Israel.
And secondly because it is not even vaguely "anti-semitic". The policy of a Greater Israel, and the need for living space for Israelis, is an Israeli government policy and it has absolutely nothing to do with being Jewish. Plenty of Jews throughout the world are very strongly opposed to it.
In fact I consider your apparent belief that "Greater Israel" policy is somehow intrinsically Jewish to be anti-semitic.it reminds of a rally in support of Palestine that I went to recently where by far the best speaker was a Jewish guy, as is often the case, who in his speech pointed out there is nothing Jewish about apartheid.
And if that's not the point you are trying to make then I don't know what it is. I think we have established that if Gerald Kaufman can use parliament to make a comparison between Israeli far-right politicians and the nazis then I can do the same on a MTB forum.
