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[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35107203 ]fracking in the parks[/url]
So, right decision or not?
so ****ing dumb.
merely days after the world agrees that we might need to do something to mitigate the worst of climate change, we're straight back to shagging the world for profit.
WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT IN THE GROUND.
ffs.
At best, it'll cost us a sodding fortune in money and energy to develop and build and run the carbon-capture technology that'll be required to undo the damage done so that a few (and only a few) people can make some profit for a few years. At best.
(worst case, CCS doesn't work, and we're all stuffed)
If there's money to be made I can't see a problem.
Not really but then, speaking as a geologist, I don't think much will ever come of it anyway.
Completely different situation in the UK to the US and fracking can only be viable with subsidy, Carbon Capture and Storage (subsidy by another name) or a very high oil price.
The only one which looks likely with this rabble in charge is a direct subsidy, which even they wouldn't go for!
Stupid decision though as it makes a mockery of national park status. It would be foolish to expect better.
The only one which looks likely with this rabble in charge is a direct subsidy, which even they wouldn't go for!
That would require special permission from the EU.
Elected sovereign governments aren't allowed to make those sort of decisions for themselves.
No. Terrible decision. Not only is it a catastrophically bad technique, it perpetuates the use of fossil fuels we should be focusing on reducing and eventually eradicating.
Enjoy it while it lasts then. It wont be here for long.
Awhiles & mikey74 +1
and done without debate by backdoor parliamentary tactics
Enjoy it while it lasts then. It wont be here for long.
What won't be........the national parks? A finely balanced and predictable climate? The Christmas pantomime season?
Part of the trouble is that for years a lot of the fossil-reduction argument was based on scarcity- peak oil, all that stuff. And that was an argument that was pretty much won, but the conclusions people drew from it and actions taken were completely the opposite of what was needed- massive investment and innovation in new ways to extract fossil fuels, opening up deposits that wouldn't have been viable or tolerated previously...
dump iron in the oceans, plankton bloom and remove carbon from atmosphere, job done.
Northwind makes a good point.
Turnerguy is somewhere I dont want to follow. Seeing as we've ****ed up the air, lets **** up the water too? Strange logic.
Depends on your view.
We need hydrocarbons, most people on this thread are doing so from a plastic keyboard, and will drive a car home tonight.
Gas is far better for the environment than diesel.
a few (and only a few) people can make some profit
I think you'll find that as an industry, the excrement is really hitting the fan with regards to a lack of work due to the low oil prices. We could do with a few jobs (and not getting left behind when it comes to developing expertise).
job done.
What about harvesting and burning the plankton for our energy needs?
merely days after the world agrees that we might need to do something to mitigate the worst of climate change, we're straight back to shagging the world for profit.WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT IN THE GROUND.
This, times a gazillion.
I just caught the news, and feel utterly helpless.
One of these days, some massive earthquake in some place like Lancashire is going to show us how wrong we were. We'll pause for a moment, scratch our heads, then go right back to doing what we were doing.
pretty sure there will be a downside to this but as I cba googling it I'll go with [i]the pH of the sea will plummet and you'll need a hazmat suit when you're on the beach.[/i]dump iron in the oceans, plankton bloom and remove carbon from atmosphere, job done.
Well seeing as they took the decisions about fracking planning applications out of the hands of local authorities, as they didn't share the enthusiasm as the balloon-faced inhabitant of fracking-free Whitney, Oxfordshire, I suppose this was the logical next step
Hurray for democracy and localism
and at the same time as the UK reduces it's investment in renewable energies.
Disgraceful.
Turnerguy is somewhere I dont want to follow. Seeing as we've * up the air, lets * up the water too? Strange logic.
in the aftermath of the 1991 eruption of Mount Pinatubo in the Philippines. Environmental scientist Andrew Watson analyzed global data from that eruption and calculated that it deposited approximately 40,000 tons of iron dust into the oceans worldwide. This single fertilization event generated an easily observed global decline in atmospheric CO
2 and a parallel pulsed increase in oxygen levels.[8]
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_fertilization
thisisnotaspoon - MemberDepends on your view.
We need hydrocarbons, most people on this thread are doing so from a plastic keyboard, and will drive a car home tonight.
Gas is far better for the environment than diesel.
Yep, if we were only going to burn one of them. But gas + diesel is worse.
Nothing to do with this I'm sure.
We'll need gas for the next couple of decades at least. In an uncertain world I'd prefer a UK supply. Who is volunteering to stop using gas central heating?
As for how viable UK fracking is? We won't know until a few exploratory wells are done. The industry isn't asking for subsidy. Just get they obstacles out their way, regulate, and let them see what they find.
Better than the crazy world of green subsidy where a farmer can rent out his fields for subsidised solar or wind. After getting that he can get another subsidy to have diesel generators in another field for when the wind and solar are producing nothing.
http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2015/12/11/greens-lining-the-pockets-of-farmers.html
And on the canadian news this morning > [url= http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/earthquake-northeastern-b-c-progress-energy-fracking-1.3367081 ]Earthquake in Northern B.C. caused by fracking, says regulator[/url]
British Columbia's energy regulator has confirmed that a 4.6 magnitude earthquake in northeast B.C. earlier this year was caused by a nearby fracking operation.
[quote=thisisnotaspoon spake unto the masses, saying]
Gas is far better for the environment than diesel.
Or coal.
[quote=mikey74 spake unto the masses, saying]and at the same time as the UK reduces it's investment in renewable energies.
Disgraceful.
Must be a mistake. This is the greenest government ever. I know, cos Dave said so.
As the guffawing bellends I went to school with stand to earn colossal amounts of filthy lucre from it surely it can only be a good idea. They probably need some new diamond encrusted cuff links or summet.
Yours George Osborne
Money is so powerful...thats what drives things like fracking ....
Until the leaders take a world view where decisions are based on upon impacts on the planet and what's the best for a healthy planet...it'll just keep getting worse....humans are easily the biggest pest to this ecosystem....
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23505723 ]They definitely said they'd only do it in the 'desolate' bits. Is that all the north now then?[/url]
Amber Rudd, the former parliamentary undersecretary of state for climate change, told MPs: “We have agreed an outright ban on fracking in national parks [and] sites of special scientific interest.”
Shurely not another bunch of lying Tories?
[quote=thisisnotaspoon spake unto the masses, saying]
I think you'll find that as an industry, the excrement is really hitting the fan with regards to a lack of work due to the low oil prices. We could do with a few jobs (and not getting left behind when it comes to developing expertise).
As a former earthquake seismologist I am looking forward to the possibility of a bit of extra consulting work. Carry on, chaps!!
Turnerguy - ever heard of the law of unintended consequences?
Its just storing up more problems for later on.
The people that were once 'deniers' seem to have changed tune in the face of growing evidence and now advocate climate engineering whilst simultaneously implying that there is no problem anyway. Ostriches sticking their heads in the sand and unfortunately we seem to have a government full of the bastards.
The planet is really buggered then.
I see no evidence of anyone or government or business changing this. The latest climate agreement wont change it.
We will still carry on polluting.
I'm quite looking forward to more fracking for on-shore gas being tried out, we have a heck of a lot of environmental controls and legislation in the UK so the chances of significant environmental harm occurring (especially without an enforced clean-up) are very low. Yes, there may be the odd site that has an issue, but there's a risk with any form of industrial development of environmental damage so we'd need to ban any kind of industry. Or transport. Or petrol stations. Etc, etc.
I'm up for it, my proviso is that the same amount of money put into extraction is put into renewables, unlikely as that proposal is.
And yes, looks like the South Downs gets it too..
Given the current falling oil price it will be uneconomic for the foreseeable future.
if the shires don't won't it they should have voted green not blue, while there is little chance of that happening the government will carry on regardless.
Turnerguy - ever heard of the law of unintended consequences?Its just storing up more problems for later on.
Except that natural events are doing this stuff all the time - volcanic eruptions for example.
Or the massive fires in Indonesia which is chucking out loads of co/2 but it people don't seem fussed about, a lot less fussed than about VW.
It is almost certainly the greatest environmental disaster of the 21st century – so far.
it is currently producing more carbon dioxide than the US economy. And in three weeks the fires have released more CO2 than the annual emissions of Germany.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35109393
A little bit pointless having these global agreements but letting something like this happen.
The isssue of fracking is a good example of how dysfunctional Britain is.
In Wales, there was supposed to have been a ban on fracking. But nobody seems to know if there really is - or how exactly it would work.
In theory, it's because, while the UK Government controls mineral licensing, the Welsh Assembly has control over planning.
But the Planning Inspectorate, who would deal with any appeals, is part of UK Governemnt.
Should be a completely devolved matter.
As a former earthquake seismologist
We may have much to talk about (it's something I'm interested in and considering as I progress my Geology studies). Would you mind the odd email exchange?
irc - Member
We'll need gas for the next couple of decades at least. In an uncertain world I'd prefer a UK supply. Who is volunteering to stop using gas central heating?
I don't think it works like that, it all goes into the European market I think?
Turnerguy - ever heard of the law of unintended consequences?Its just storing up more problems for later on.
Except that natural events are doing this stuff all the time - volcanic eruptions for example.
Or the massive fires in Indonesia which is chucking out loads of co/2 but it people don't seem fussed about, a lot less fussed than about VW.
It is almost certainly the greatest environmental disaster of the 21st century – so far.
it is currently producing more carbon dioxide than the US economy. And in three weeks the fires have released more CO2 than the annual emissions of Germany.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35109393
A little bit pointless having these global agreements but letting something like this happen.
Well volcanic eruptions we can do nothing about and they have two effects - 1 immediate cooling due to high level aerosols and 2 long term warmer due to increased CO2.
We should try to address the things we can do something about and we should target the illness, not the symptoms. Your ocean seeding plan is stitching up the wound without re-setting the broken bones underneath.
I would also be very worried about some possible natural disasters which might just be manageable on their own but will completely floor us if the world is already 2 deg C warmer than it would otherwise have been.
As long as the oil price stays low, no one will be starting any Fracking operations in the UK (bar perhaps an exploratory drill).
I don't think it works like that, it all goes into the European market I think?
Well firstly, European security of supply is helped if UK and other Euro countries secure their own gas.
Secondly if it came down to houses being unheated and lights going off because of some crisis cutting off supplies from elsewhere in the world I'm sure the House of Commons could rush a law through pretty fast to ensure Britain got first option on UK gas.
+ 1 for the decarbonising our way of life and our economy being the priority but I think political objectives are what's steering the recent rise in shale in USA and now fracking here.
If we can ruin Saudi and Russian economies (both highly dependent on oil price) we can a) increase our security b) save a lot of money on not having to go to war c) get a desperately needed source of income to help pay of the debt.
So, not ideal, but some very positive and badly needed benefits. Remember, we're in a crisis and we have to be prepared to try previously unimaginable options and make compromises to get out of it...
We should try to address the things we can do something about and we should target the illness, not the symptoms.
Yes, so why are those Indonesian fires being tolerated - they go on every year although this one is more out of 'control'.
http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/tags/indonesia
Your ocean seeding plan is stitching up the wound without re-setting the broken bones underneath.
It's not my plan, people have been researching and thinking about it for year - pretty sure that it was mentioned when I did A level geology 33 years ago (before my geophysics degree).
The isssue of fracking is a good example of how dysfunctional Britain is.In Wales, there was supposed to have been a ban on fracking. But nobody seems to know if there really is - or how exactly it would work.
In theory, it's because, while the UK Government controls mineral licensing, the Welsh Assembly has control over planning.
But the Planning Inspectorate, who would deal with any appeals, is part of UK Governemnt.
Should be a completely devolved matter.
It's amazing. Shut the pits and people are still whinging a generation later.
Try to start fracking, something utterly benign in comparison, and people whinge. I have no idea what would happen if JC got his way and the pits reopened. Pitched battles with Police?
TurnerGuy - MemberWe should try to address the things we can do something about and we should target the illness, not the symptoms.
Yes, so why are those Indonesian fires being tolerated - they go on every year although this one is more out of 'control'.
http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/tags/indonesia
Your ocean seeding plan is stitching up the wound without re-setting the broken bones underneath.
It's not my plan, people have been researching and thinking about it for year - pretty sure that it was mentioned when I did A level geology 33 years ago (before my geophysics degree).
The simple answer is that they shouldn't be tolerated, however, most people in the west seem to care more about cheap food rather than how the palm oil which goes into it was produced. To flounce off further along this particular tangent, the CO2 from those fires isn't fossil. Besides which, it has absolutely **** all to do with how we live in the west.
Geoengineering has been mentioned for a long time, you are right in that at least. Its also been debunked for a long time. If you're a geologist you should know that.
Back to the topic in hand - fracking could be useful in terms of UK energy security but if it ever came to a point where that was a real concern, I think we'd have far bigger worries. Fracking, oil and the rest is the past. If there is any long term future it has to be sustainable and renewable.
[quote=5thElefant spake unto the masses, saying] The isssue of fracking is a good example of how dysfunctional Britain is.
In Wales, there was supposed to have been a ban on fracking. But nobody seems to know if there really is - or how exactly it would work.
In theory, it's because, while the UK Government controls mineral licensing, the Welsh Assembly has control over planning.
But the Planning Inspectorate, who would deal with any appeals, is part of UK Governemnt.
Should be a completely devolved matter.
It's amazing. Shut the pits and people are still whinging a generation later.
Try to start fracking, something utterly benign in comparison, and people whinge. I have no idea what would happen if JC got his way and the pits reopened. Pitched battles with Police?
As you well know - the issues are unrelated. The pits weren't shut to save the environment, were they?
If it's an issue of energy security wouldn't it be better to leave it where it is for now, until our current supply is insecure?
yes.
'energy security' sounds like a nice, boring thing that calm, intelligent grown-ups would say.
But fracking clearly is not about 'energy security'*, it's about profit, now. knackers to the consequences.
(*as you say, if it was, we'd leave it till we needed it)
the CO2 from those fires isn't fossil.
does fossil CO2 have different effects in the atmosphere then ???
I am not sure those ideas have been debunked as they have been shown to work, it is just that they would potentially be very dangerous as we don't know what the possible side-effects of playing around with Gaia would be.
However it is certain that stopping those annual fires will have a huge immediate impact - they were chucking out CO2 at the same rate as USA!
People, apart from Greenpeace and some of the press, aren't worried though as the green energy schemes are ways to get more money into business, nothing to do with actually doing any environmental good.
Financially compensating Indonesia, and any other country wreaking huge environmental damage like that, so that they don't have to exploit the environment so much to survive, would be a lot better use of a green tax than funneling it off to businesses that just want to make money building the kit, whether it is a good idea or not. And politicians who just want to be seen as doing something, so anything short term is good, even if it is not the best idea.
As you well know - the issues are unrelated. The pits weren't shut to save the environment, were they?
They're the same issue.
We're better off with gas than coal, so there is no environmental argument, other than a positive one.
We're better off with gas than coal, so there is no environmental argument, other than a positive one.
But there is an on-going argument. There's no agreement on what the environmental impact of fracking is - that's why many countries have chosen to hold off until more is known. It seems a reasonable and rational thing to do - and it's what the Welsh Assembly decided.
To say we should charge ahead because it's potentially less harmful than coal is daft.
WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT IN THE GROUND !!
[u]but[/u]
at the moment every single aspect of our lives depends on hydrocarbons
plastic is everywhere, clothes, housing, medicine, food production, fertilisers, manufacturing, providing utilities, furniture, home appliances, heating and cooking in our homes, gadgets, gizmos and tvs we are all using to type this
(yeah we can use bio materials but that would only mean pulping more rainforrest etc)
and fuel, well without it our entire global economy would stop, the millions of flights a day, the constant stream of container ships from asia to the west full of all our 'essentials' all rail and travel
the national grid is so underpowered that the governments recently OK'd a load of new diesel power stations!! (on the QT , obvs)
the shops would be empty, commuting, would be impossible, no more holidays, emergency services stuffed, the military crippled etc etc
Its not just about subsidising wind and solar farms and funding ITER which we should be doing, tho the reality is infact the opposite: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35119173
wed have to start rebuilding every piece of our infrastructure from the ground up and no politician is ever going to spend that kind of money
as for the profit argument, if you take out the money from the North Sea oil boom, then the UK economy has flatlined for the last 30+ years and this year only 2 North Sea oil companies payed any tax apparently!!
Yeah, but that's all done in faraway places, so it doesn't matter - as long as we put a few windmills around here and there to produce a few percent of our electricity then we're 'doing our bit' aren't we, and there's no need for fossil fuels (unless it stops being windy of course)
If there's money to be made I can't see a problem.
You have a glittering career in the tory party ahead of you
Wales is a funny one, currently Welsh LNG terminals accept up to 20% of the UK gas need on ships from Qatar and the pipeline runs under the Brecons National Park.
I'd prefer it if we fracked locally, hence, saving all the energy costs involved with transporting LNG and as an added bonus sending less money to Qatar.
dragon - Member
...saving all the energy costs involved with transporting LNG
i know what you mean, but...
moving things by boat is a very efficient way to do it.
(i can move a 40+ tonne narrowboat with only a little oomph to get it started, i can't move a 40+ tonne lorry at all)
Turnerguy - the CO2 is the same in the atmosphere yes, but it is not destroying an already sequestered and irreplaceable stockpile. THe forests [i]can[/i] be regrown in a reasonable timescale i.e. a generation or two. Oil, coal and gas needs several million lifetimes to replace.
That is not to say its not a big issue but it doesn't affect [i]our[/i] impact.
Enough of the strawman, I largely agree with your last post but you seem to be proposing removing subsidies from renewable tech just to give it to the frackers. I've seen first hand what cuadrilla's attitude is and I don't like it. There is no acknowledgment that everything is different about the fracking proposed here to the US. Environmentally it doesn't concern me too much other than the fossil fuel aspect.
Why subsidise a dirty non sustainable energy source at the expense of renewable, sustainable technologies?
And to the original point of the article, why under national parks when the vast bulk of reserves are nowhere near them?
An efficiently way to move gas is via pipelines, not boats.
The National Parks issue is a bit of a Red Herring. What is far more important is the fact that they are looking to frack through some of our drinking water!
In the South Downs they are looking to put those pipes through the only drinking water supply for miles around. So when asked if you want to risk that what do you think the answer should be.
Add to that it is using another fossils fuel and not a renewable resource then the risks start to stack up against using any of this gas as a resuorce.
This government has done everything possible to screw up green energy, and maintain a high fossil fuel future, maybe they have some vested interests.
They have devastated the wind industry, just done the same to POVs, now I do understand that subsidies should be used to stimulate and help develop industries but nuclear FFS.
Then to pull the plug on Carbon Capture, twice, it just defies logic.
Every resource that can be garnered must be thrown into developing an environmently friendly,economical, tidal energy industry, we have in this country some of the biggest tidal ranges in the world and a huge coastline, the potential is huge, reliable, predictable and eternal. We made a start with industry in the 70s' and the Tories kiboshed it then, otherwise who knows by now we could have been energy secure, and world leaders in a safe energy future.
Will know one think of the children.
but you seem to be proposing removing subsidies from renewable tech just to give it to the frackers
can't see where I said that - I said our green taxes going to help other countries stop wreaking huge environmental impact might well be a lot more effective way of spending the money than building loads of wind and solar farms that only work some of the time. Tidal is the way to go eventually as they don't stop.
Every resource that can be garnered must be thrown into developing an environmently friendly,economical, tidal energy industry, we have in this country some of the biggest tidal ranges in the world and a huge coastline, the potential is huge, reliable, predictable and eternal.
Not going to happen. If people object to something as unobtrusive as fracking just imagine the outrage that destroying the habitat for a few ducks will generate.
Not going to happen. If people object to something as unobtrusive as fracking just imagine the outrage that destroying the habitat for a few ducks will generate.
people who want to protect their local environment will have to commit to spending a couple of hours a day on treadmill farms.
[quote=5thElefant spake unto the masses, saying]If people object to something as unobtrusive as fracking just imagine the outrage that destroying the habitat for a few ducks will generate.
How unobtrusive is poisoning the water supply?
