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Fastest lap point to be dropped.
Directing your junior team to pit, fit fresh softs to take the point to your rival seemed like the shitty tactics to everyone watching that it obviously was at the time, even if Horner denies that's the case. It's hardly a surprise that its been dropped.
RB have ‘gotten away with it’
I find it interesting theyve stated they decided to modify it, despite the fact it couldn’t be used in parc ferme. Got away with it indeed, it’s taking the piss / another F1 RB farce. Maybe Horner has more incriminating pictures than we think in his possession.
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see if anything changes to RB's weekend. Texas has been a happy place for RB in the past, and the MacLaren will go well here, but if there's a huge different in RB's performance, I think everyone will draw their own conclusions.
I think the dropping of the point for fastest lap is an odd one. I don't have a problem with it as a thing but what they should do is allow whoever scores the fastest lap to keep the point and not just restrict it to the top 10. That always felt like a bit of a contrived / ill thought through idea.
but what they should do is allow whoever scores the fastest lap to keep the point and not just restrict it to the top 10. That always felt like a bit of a contrived / ill thought through idea.
If they did that then the 5 slow teams would just keep chucking new tyres at it in the last few laps rather than actually racing.
If they did that then the 5 slow teams would just keep chucking new tyres at it in the last few laps rather than actually racing.
And we would actually get to see some cars being driven at the limit rather than just conserving tyres.
And Mazapon would have a had a point for that Belgian GP which never really happened
And we would actually get to see some cars being driven at the limit rather than just conserving tyres.
But they've also often been lapped by the faster cars by that point. Having them suddenly speed up massively is just going to get in the way, what if one of them tries to un-lap himself ad it all goes wrong?
I'm struggling to see the issue with that. Surely it helps spice up the race a bit? A chance for the lesser teams to have a moment in the spotlight? After all, they've probably spent the majority of the race doing their best but essentially fighting over places where there are no points. To see them given the opportunity to have a bit of flat out racing towards the end of the race adds something interesting / another dimension. In reality though, not sure how many teams might actually do that - but at least it would be an option and give them something positive to fight for?
Most the gripes seem to be that the extra point is now more of a tactic that a reward. It does seem to be less about mangin a quick lap in the race and more a bonus point if one of the team slap on some softs near the end.
It can be perceived and a 'cheat' or 'unsporting' when used like Ricardo did, just to get a point off another team and not part of the genuine racing.
I suspect the powers that be decided that few people think it adds much and their is more noise about it being a negative, so why not just remove it?
After looking forward to the F1 this weekend, I’ve seen the headlines and am now considering Netflix as an alternative to several hours of a bemoaning Karen Horner.
Gary Anderson's take on the Red Bull "it's there, but we've not used it guvnor, honest" bib feature...
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/red-bull-bib-device-f1-controversy-gary-anderson/
It's been Max's championship to lose, but if he picks up a win or two this weekend it's definitely all over. That Mercedes seems like a dog to drive, they're very good at doing that to themselves.
Not sure it’s a complete dog - talk is that Lewis would have taken pole if not for Colapinto’s spin.
Anyway - it’s only sprint race pole! 🙂
This is a great sprint race!
Urgh, shame that Lando ran out of tyres at the end - every point is crucial.
As much as I want him to win WDC I don't think he's doing enough to catch Verstappen
the-muffin-manFull Member
Not sure it’s a complete dog – talk is that Lewis would have taken pole if not for Colapinto’s spin.Anyway – it’s only sprint race pole! 🙂
Seems it's decent when it's in the (extremely narrow) temperature window, otherwise it just chews up its tyres. Seemed like the Ferrari was the quickest race car today.
PS Norris got summoned for moving in the braking zone, NFA decided so he retains P3.
Lando proving again he’s not very good racing wheel to wheel.
Brilliant battle, so sick of this track limits stuff though!
This bullshit rule where you can divebomb then push people off at the exit is spoiling the racing.
Brilliant drive by Russell, Colapinto and Lawson. Perez not so much. Lewis will be smiling with that result, forza Ferrari!
It was obvious how Max was going to defend that though - he needed the inside line and Max was never going to allow him to have it.
Other overtakes like that were penalised the same.
If the driver on the inside at the entry goes off on the outside of the exit, the should be no penalty for the driver on the outside at entry if he gains a place from going off.
or they should both get a penalty.
Loved that race! I got to watch it live for the first time in years - bought a now tv pass for the football earlier, didn’t expect it to cover the GP too, but it did, woo hoo!
Track limits is a ballache though, ruins the racing. Great track for close racing and some great driving. I thought Lando drove really well, it’s so risky behind Max as he’s unpredictable, getting a move done is so tough!
Great racing spectacle. Lando's team should/could have been a bit more objective about where he was in relation to Verstappen and the apex when making the illegal overtake and suggested he give the place back to then have a couple more goes at a legal move. And Ferrari coming good for the arrival of Lewis.
Jenson called it. Essentially Max knows he just has to have his nose ahead at the apex, then he can run the overtaking driver off the track, then they either yield/get a shit exit/get a penalty so he comes off the brakes early knowing he won’t make the exit, but it doesn’t matter.
tomhowardFull Member
Jenson called it. Essentially Max knows he just has to have his nose ahead at the apex, then he can run the overtaking driver off the track, then they either yield/get a shit exit/get a penalty so he comes off the brakes early knowing he won’t make the exit, but it doesn’t matter.
Yep bang on
These decisions seem to be judgmental. Russel got a penalty for (IMO) less of a breach than max as he was still partly on the racetrack. Max was all four wheels off and it’s Norris who gets ****ed
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The comparison between this incident and the one between Max and Kimi is bollocks, Max over took Kimi by simply cutting a corner, he wasn’t forced off at all.
Yet again, McLarens tactics and strategy fail them. Lando should have made that move a couple of laps earlier, sucked up any 5 second penalty but just ran off over 5 seconds in front of MV over the last n laps (as he obviously had much more speed).
Granted, it's not "sporting" but neither is MV pushing other drivers off track
I agree about the track limits argument, it seems inconsistent. Lando should've given the place straight back and given himself time to have another go at passing which s on the team to give that direction quickly to Lando, but both Max and Lando IMO should've been penalized, as both are clearly off the track.
No wonder the drivers are criticising it.
The funniest outcome would definitely have been to announce Lando's penalty and then announce the same for Max 30 seconds later.
The whole situation is just a farce. That comment from Jenson Button pretty much sums it up. Max knows the limits of the rules very well and has no qualms in going right up to them. It really pisses me off every time he does it, which is often. But, with the way the FIA have written the guidelines he gets away with it every time.
I think Mclaren thought that Norris would be able to pull a 5s gap on Verstappen given how quick he caught him and the tyre delta to cover off any penatly, but that never happened.
Max knows the limits of the rules very well and has no qualms in going right up to them.
I have zero problem with Max driving hard, I absolutely want and expect all the drivers to be 100% when it comes to that. The thing that pisses me off is that while Lando's overtake was clearly not going to work, he should've just either backed off or given the place back. At the same time, while Max's nose was ahead at the apex, so yeah, he has the corner he had to brake so late to makes sure he did, that he couldn't make the exit - He went from the inside of the previous corner to way outside track limits on the next on the outside. So if George is outside track limits and gets 5 secs for forcing a driver off the circuit, at the same corner, and Lando gets 5 secs for gaining a place while off the track at the same corner, then Max should get the same for doing pretty much the same thing at the same corner.
It's these sorts of things where the FIA just shoot themselves in the face. Derek Warwick was the race steward yesterday and frankly he should be doing a better job given his experience.
Is this the difference between gaining an advantage and retaining an advantage? Seems that if you're ahead at the apex and take the "racing line" then more leeway is given than if you're behind and have to go wider than the racing line in order to pass. I'm not sure how that can be tightened up other than to penalise both drivers for going off-circuit and give another penalty for the overtake. The effect would be much the same, although any drivers closer than 5s behind might be promoted.
I was also confused by the R5 commentary. They suggested that Lando had already been flagged for repeated track limit violations and that the 5s penalty was related to that rather than the overtake specifically?
To an extent, yes I guess it is. But the "rules/guidelines" at the moment effectively give the defending driver a pass to drive off the track as long as they can show that they were ahead at the apex. So if you're Max (or anyone else) just stuff it into the corner and be the last of the late brakers, it apparently doesn't matter if you run completely off the track at the exit. Conversely if you want to overtake then better to if you do it on the opening lap, as apparently its OK to exceed track limits then, but later on in the race, if you go off the circuit; that's bad.
Six of one, damned if you don't
and that the 5s penalty was related to that rather than the overtake specifically?
A bit of both. I think it was his 4th violation but at the same time, Max pretty much forced him off, so the two are related.
A bit of both. I think it was his 4th violation
It wasn’t. If you go off at T19 or 20, both the lap you are on and the next lap time get deleted. He had 4 laps deleted, but only for 3 infringements. The penalty was for overtaking off the track.
Max knows the limits of the rules very well and has no qualms in going right up to them
See also, brake checking just before DRS detection lines
What Max did with late braking and running off at the exit is within the rules. The rules are wrong for that.
Perhaps the rule about 1st to the apex should remain but only if you actually also make the corner. If you and the car behind both go off track then whoever comes back in front keeps the lead?
Track limits seem to have become a favorite thing to penalise drivers for in the last couple of seasons. Was there loads of dubious driving before that made this such an issue?
brake checking just before DRS detection lines
This has been spinning around my head since it was posted; surely that’s an incorrect thing to do as it only brings the following car closer to you. Or, what am I missing?
Wanting to be second across the DRS detection line, more relevant at some circuits than others, ones where the slipstream effect is powerful.
Although take that to extremis and we end up with Monza 2019...
Lando should’ve given the place straight back and given himself time to have another go at passing
or made the move 2 laps earlier and got 5 seconds on max before the checkered flag.
Derek Warwick was the race steward yesterday and frankly he should be doing a better job given his experience.
didn’t he say in the grid walk that he was hoping for a quiet afternoon. Doesn’t sound like he was too committed to the task
What Max did with late braking and running off at the exit is within the rules. The rules are wrong for that.
I’m not so sure. Here’s the full Article that is relevant (and is the one that was cited for Russell’s penalty); I’ve numbered the sentences purely for ease of reference:
1. Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried out on either the right or the left.
2. A driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason.
3. More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted.
4. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
5. However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.
6. Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the Stewards.
I think there’s a reasonable argument that Max breached the second and fifth points here. I don’t think it would have been outlandish to penalise both drivers.
I was surprised that McLaren made the call to stay ahead, though. To me looked a pretty safe bet that Norris would get a penalty regardless of whether Verstappen did or didn’t.
Other than that, I think Max did a sublime job of defending, while Norris didn’t appear to be mastering attacking. His car always looks very scrappy on corner exit, as if he’s just too keen to get on the throttle, and ends up compromising the straights. Then he ends up too far back at the braking zone and ends up with half-moves like the one that got him the penalty yesterday. I think it’s a safe bet that Max has the title in the bag now; I think neither Norris nor the McLaren pit wall are up to the job yet.
In other news: Colapinto very impressive yet again; Leclerc finally seems to be delivering pretty consistently on Sundays; Hamilton underperforming like never before. It’ll be very interesting to see their relative performances at Ferrari next year, but unless Lewis has simply mentally checked out this year—which I doubt—I’m starting to think Leclerc will be the top dog.
Leclerc finally seems to be delivering pretty consistently on Sundays; Hamilton underperforming like never before.
I think it comes down to Ferrari making a car that doesn't destroy its tyres in five laps. Hamilton reminds me of Damon Hill and Villeneuve Jr. at the ends of their careers, they just weren't a shadow of what they used to be.
It’ll be very interesting to see their relative performances at Ferrari next year, but unless Lewis has simply mentally checked out this year—which I doubt—I’m starting to think Leclerc will be the top dog.
I think Ferrari will be disappointed if Leclerc isn't top-dog. He's the future for them - IMO Hamilton is a brilliant marketing exercise that will bring Ferrari massive exposure for his last two seasons. I do think he'll produce better results than Sainz though, and I'm really looking forward to seeing him in red next season.
I think Lando could have pulled out the required 5 seconds had he been more ruthless straight after the overtake.
From the outside it looked as if he was hesitant to break away from Max while still questioning the need to give the place back. If you look at the final corner Max was on Lando's gearbox and Brundle/Croft questioned on commentary if the switch was about to happen. Had Lando got on with the job its not inconceivable that he could have found the extra 0.9s required to negate the 5s penalty.
Whilst Lando is exceptionally competent and likable, he seems to lack the shear ruthlessness of the multiple WC's that have come before. McLaren too are also guilty of being too indecisive in certain scenarios.
Hamilton reminds me of Damon Hill and Villeneuve Jr. at the ends of their careers, they just weren’t a shadow of what they used to be.
Hm, not sure. Hill suffered from Frank’s apparent policy of never having the number 1 on his cars, and then got the fear. Also, to be honest, even in his championship year I never saw him as one of the consistent greats; I’d compare him to Rosberg, taking two years of hard schooling from one of the true greats before finally beating them and kind of exhausting themselves. And Villeneuve I don’t think is or ever has been a barometer of anything other than himself.
Maybe a better comparison is Schumacher, though in his case there was a clear hiatus after leaving as a dominant force and returning looking distinctly average. At this stage Hamilton is an unknown: he’s had three years driving cars that have mostly been dogs, so it’s a question of whether he’s given up on Mercedes or given up on F1. I think he still wants his 8th title that he believes he was robbed of.
Whilst Lando is exceptionally competent and likable, he seems to lack the shear ruthlessness of the multiple WC’s that have come before.
Yes, though I’m not even sure he’s “exceptionally competent”, not by F1 championship contender standards: there was only ever going to be one way to maintain the lead at the start and he never chose it, and his close-quarters chasing still looks scrappy. He has great pace but still too many errors of racecraft.
As it happens The Race seem to have just posted a decent comment: https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/lando-norris-must-get-smarter-or-max-verstappen-keep-embarrassing-him/
Interesting thing about the Mercs. Both of the drivers lost control of the car with the new updates, but George, reverting to the older spec due to damage seemed much more in control come Sunday.
In quali, Hamilton made one small mistake on entry (at 7 or 8?) which cost him 0.5s and dropped him to 19 from George's 4th. Fine margins in all the other sectors. Hamilton isn't passed it...yet.
The Merc just looked weird. At points it was absolutely flying, at others it just looked like it was on marbles. I think Mercedes still just don’t have ground effect sorted.
didn’t he say in the grid walk that he was hoping for a quiet afternoon. Doesn’t sound like he was too committed to the task
I'm sure this comment is related to "if all the drivers/teams follow the rules then there will be nothing for the stewards to do"
I hoped that after the successful track changes made at Austria, to avoid the track limit issues, would have been rolled out to other circuits. There needs to be a physical loss of time for going off-track, rather than some retrospective penalty.
Lets say Lando had made up the 5 secs, would have that been the right result?
It sets a dangerous president that you can cut the corner to get ahead
Max extends his lead over the weekend, and the RedBull has always been strong at Mexico, so barring a DNF the title is now a long shot for Lando.
so barring a DNF the title is now a long shot for Lando.
The title has always been a very long shot for Nando - I don't think at any point (since McLaren got their act together) there been less than a 2 race victory lead? That's a huge gulf in any championship, it's just been reported as a title battle to make things seem more exciting
Mercedes had a very low downforce setup for last weekend which made them fast, but they were also running very low. Lewis and George both seems to loose it as the car bottomed out, lifting the rear axle and ruining their corner entry.
Chew
Max extends his lead over the weekend, and the RedBull has always been strong at Mexico, so barring a DNF the title is now a long shot for Lando.
Yeah, we need Piastri to go bowling à la bottas @ hungary '21 🙂
This has been spinning around my head since it was posted; surely that’s an incorrect thing to do as it only brings the following car closer to you. Or, what am I missing?
if your opponent is about to overtake around but not before the DRS line, they will overtake AND have DRS after. Brake checking means they still overtake, but if you do it right and let them through before the line, you’ll get the DRS to take the position back on the next straight.
plus it makes the other driver nervous around you, not knowing your next move
Anyhow, Mexico this weekend. Are we still expecting Perez to announce his "retirement" at his home race?
Yeah, we need Piastri to go bowling à la bottas @ hungary ’21 ?
This is how you protect a teammate
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QI8litf5a2s&pp=ygUVYnRjYyAxOTkyIHNpbHZlcnN0b25l
andrewh
This is how you protect a teammate
😀 one of the best Murray Walker clips that, brilliant
I was at Silverstone the day of that Soper/ Cleland accident. There was a huge cheer, Cleland wasn't the most popular driver.
See Russell binned it in FP2, that Merc is a real pig by the looks of it. Shows how sensitive the cars are, slightly the wrong way and it's down the grid.
I was at Silverstone the day of that Soper/ Cleland accident. There was a huge cheer, Cleland wasn’t the most popular driver.
Big fan of Soperman but that was criminal. Harvey's title is worthless.
jimster01Full Member
See Russell binned it in FP2, that Merc is a real pig by the looks of it. Shows how sensitive the cars are, slightly the wrong way and it’s down the grid.
I just watched the replay. Bit of a weird crash. I thought at first he took too much kerb but I checked against last couple of years pole laps and it looked about the same, maybe a bit less.
Something's happened to that car recently, no way are experienced drivers like Hamilton and Russell binning it 3 times in 2 race weekends. Bad update or something spicy taken off the cars?
Anyway sounds like they've had to replace a lot of stuff including the monocoque. Lewis' floor also got damaged in FP1. Not great.
no way are experienced drivers like Hamilton and Russell binning it 3 times in 2 race weekends. Bad update or something spicy taken off the cars?
Same pattern we've seen from most teams with the new regulations. They develop a new aero package that gives great downforce in the windtunnel, but is too peaky to be useful on track unless conditions are perfect. Merc have been the standout team at that, cars that are unbeatable when the track temperature and wind are just right, but undriveable if the weather turns cloudy or the wind changes.
Wonder how they'll cock this up
Formula 1’s governing body is to revise its racing guidelines following a meeting with drivers at the Mexico City Grand Prix.
The move comes after drivers questioned the decision to penalise McLaren’s Lando Norris following a controversial incident with Red Bull’s Max Verstappen in last Sunday’s United States Grand Prix.
The FIA said in the drivers’ briefing in Mexico on Friday, sources in the meeting have told BBC Sport, that it would come up with revised wording to cover the specifics of the incident and present it to the drivers for approval later this season.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/articles/cn5wwzl052go