MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
So by making the teams richer with the cost-cap and basically creating franchises - they've ruined the racing as no-one can spend more than a fiver to try and catch up. And engine dev is frozen too. What we saw today is what we'll have till 2026.
I'm off to catch up on WEC on Eurosport...
To be fair Bahrain is a non-typical track and they had 3 days of testing in similar conditions, so you'd expect them to finish in pairs.
Like last season Max will walk to the title (plus '25) but there should be some good racing further down the pack.
The cost cap has closed the field up, but its always going to be the top teams at the top, due to the historical investment and the positive cycle of being able to attract the top talent.
Leaving a sinking ship?
the-muffin-man
Full Member
So by making the teams richer with the cost-cap and basically creating franchises – they’ve ruined the racing as no-one can spend more than a fiver to try and catch up. And engine dev is frozen too. What we saw today is what we’ll have till 2026.
I’m off to catch up on WEC on Eurosport
I think the cost cap is sound as a concept, it's the aero handicap that hasn't work.
Weight the handicap on constructors points instead of just the table position or make the handicap cumulative over the last 3 seasons.
I’m off to catch up on WEC on Eurosport…
Where they BoP'd the top 2 teams completely out of contention?
Ha, just seen Danny rics radio message after the video I linked above...
Ricciardo on the radio: "Wha... what the fu... — I'll save it. He's a ****ing helmet."
Boring
7 minute highlights on YouTube covers it.
Christian not looking as "cocky" as he normally is as he's being interviewed
Not as slimey as recently?
Looked like his smug-ometer has been turned down a bit and he gave answers that seemed well briefed and well rehearsed. But he doesn't exactly look like he's losing sleep over it either. TBH I think he loves a scrap (or power game?) especially one played out in front of the media so this is energising him rather than wearing him down.
One glimmer of hope is that LeClerc’s brakes were definitely gubbed. 100 degree temp difference between left and right for some reason. They are checking.
Jos has had his say now
As an aside, how much stuff is tested at RB(alpha-tauri) or whatever before going to Red Bull Racing, and is that taken into account with budgeting etc
One glimmer of hope is that LeClerc’s brakes were definitely gubbed. 100 degree temp difference between left and right for some reason. They are checking.
Apparently Ferrari misjudged the size of the brake ducts and their brakes were undercooled. Merc were caught out by warmer than expected temperatures so the car was undercooled and they had to lift and coast. Hopefully that means that they will be much closer to Red Bull when they don't trip over themselves.
how much stuff is tested at RB(alpha-tauri) or whatever before going to Red Bull Racing
That is not permitted under the rules.
That is not permitted under the rules.
😂🤦🏻
As above not permitted and very closely policed.
Jos.... Words fail me.
The chaos will unfold if Horner GOES not if he stays.
For someone who's been around racing teams so long I'm surprised he can't figure that out.
I’m off to catch up on WEC on Eurosport…
Where they BoP’d the top 2 teams completely out of contention?
Toyota qualified second 🤷♂️
Ferrari lead early on.
Jos has had his say now
That's unfortunate. The only face in F1 I'd never be tired of punching more than Horner's smug mug is his. So now I don't if I should take Horner's side just to disagree with the tosser!
That’s unfortunate. The only face in F1 I’d never be tired of punching more than Horner’s smug mug is his.
This. I agree with this!
I think you would need to watch your back taking on Jos, he has previous for serious violence
I’m surprised he can’t figure that out.
He can, but he loves the chaos.
He just wants to have a fight again
I think you would need to watch your back taking on Jos, he has previous for serious violence
That's what would make it so pleasurable! There's no fun in punching down on a baby robin. That would just be being a massive egotistical bully....like Verstappen Snr!
When it comes to the source of the WhatsApp leak, you have to wonder who in Red Bull would do it ( if it wasn’t alleged victim)
"Jos…. Words fail me.
The chaos will unfold if Horner GOES not if he stays."
I'm assuming this is more about control than anything else? Looking at Jos' history, he seems like the sort who would prioritise that over anything positive, like Red Bull (and by extension, his son) winning championships
thols2
That is not permitted under the rules.
Correct but can you really prevent cross-pollination of ideas when the team formerly know as minardi and RB are both based on the same campus, sharing a canteen, wind tunnel etc? Likewise the RB-AdvTech engineers that are working on (purely coincidentally) a ground effects based hypercar?
Correct but can you really prevent cross-pollination of ideas
Copying ideas is fine, you can't stop that. Engineers switch teams constantly and take their understanding of the concepts with them.
What you cannot do is share data or technical documents. Every component should have a documented history of its design and testing right from the first iteration. This was what got Aston Martin caught in the "Pink Mercedes" scandal - they buy components from Merc so they had access to technical drawings of parts that cannot be shared. They just copied those instead of developing their own parts. IIRC, they had all their points for the season deducted. If Red Bull were found to be using RB to develop and test parts for the Red Bull car, probably both teams would be disqualified for the year and given an enormous fine.
Edit: Following the Pink Mercedes scandal, the FIA clamped down and you aren't even allowed to use photographs of rival cars to reverse engineer parts. Sharing data or drawings is utterly forbidden and would be pretty easy to prove.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-design-copy-3d-cameras-pink-mercedes/4904156/
"F1 2024 season over by the first corner, thats a new record"
Yup
Switched the race off after 10 laps and tidied the garage..
I think the only realistic chance of it being anyone other than Max disappearing over the horizon with the driver's championship, is if Red Bull continue to very publicly tear itself apart
To be fair I think if and when Ferrari, Merc and McLaren can fix their issues and bring useful updates, they’ll be in the mix with Perez. I think certainly Ferrari and maybe Merc can be right there very soon, depending on how the next couple of tracks favour different cars. The real problem is the gap between Max and Checo, which—despite Perez making favourable noises about how he feels in the car—is huge. It’s hard to draw much of a conclusion other than Max being on another level compared to everyone else—yes, even Hamilton and Alonso. If they gave the trophy to Max now and told him to bugger off and sit on a beach until next March, I think we’d have an incredible season on our hands. And I hope Sainz carries on being that punchy—I’ve rated him above Leclerc since before he joined Ferrari.
thols2
Full Member
Copying ideas is fine, you can’t stop that. Engineers switch teams constantly and take their understanding of the concepts with them.
It doesn't break a rule but it's not fine, this is one of a number of discussion points.
Engineers moving from team to team will usually have a notice period followed by gardening leave to mitigate that. But not at Red bull and TR, people can be moved freely from one team to another.
They also have two votes over technical regs.
They also are able to use the sister team tactically during the race.
Red bull top brass even has direct control over who drives in torro rosso.
I respect Dietrich for taking on minardi when they were in the can, but under the current rule set owning two teams just isn't fair.
But not at Red bull and TR, people can be moved freely from one team to another.
Which is not the same as:
how much stuff is tested at RB(alpha-tauri) or whatever before going to Red Bull Racing
Basically, all that engineers can take to a new team is their understanding of concepts, they can't take data or technical documents. I'm not saying that Red Bull and RB won't benefit from having the two teams together but the idea that RB will be feeding test data to Red Bull is silly - it would be easy to detect and would incur extremely harsh penalties.
To be fair I think if and when Ferrari, Merc and McLaren can fix their issues and bring useful updates, they’ll be in the mix with Perez.
Exactly. Merc are saying that their cooling issues cost them half a second per lap. If that's the case, then that would put Merc close enough to Red Bull that they could be ahead at some tracks and could be ahead after a successful update of the car. It's just too early to know.
Nah. Max and Checo pulled away and then simply slowed down once they were comfortable and clear. Had they been in any way pressed by another car, they’d simply have driven faster. They don’t need to, they won’t need to. If all Merc can offer is to match the RB coasting time, it’s all over for this year unless someone pulls a developmental rabbit out of their hat during the first round of upgrades.
it would be easy to detect and would incur extremely harsh penalties.
The cost cap cheating was easily detected and the penalty was negligible. If there was a benefit to it, they'd do it and mop up the consequences later.
It's not like it would spoil their clean cut image.
Had they been in any way pressed by another car, they’d simply have driven faster.
eg Max’s fastest lap time being done on softs that they then managed to last as well as the others on hards.
Max to Mercedes next year?!
FIA president Mohammed Ben Sulayem asked Max Verstappen in Bahrain if he would publicly back Christian Horner
Allegedly, Max refused.
…that’s the latest rumour! Toto was seen in discusion with Jos yesterday.
Red Bull have got to really, really love Horner if they keep him over Max.
Seems that blood is thicker than water…. This is turning into a right pickle. There must be various factions thinking it’d be better if Horner took an indefinite break from the sport.
The engineer/ideas swap needn't mean taking stuff that works between teams. It can be saving time and money by not trying stuff that doesn't work.
If RB decide there are options A, B, C & D for a particular design choice and test all four to discover that A, B & C don't the expected benefit but they spend £X and Y hours on each to discover this. The engineer wanders into Red Bull and says 'lets try idea D, we need to design it from scratch' . This save Red Bull 3 lots of £X and Y Hours on bad ideas and means they can start on the best option, even though they are starting from scratch.
This might be handy if a team had a limit on the amount of time they had in the wind tunnel and sandwich allowance.
According to #BusinessF1
Red Bull CEO Oliver Mintzlaff decided to terminate Christian Horner and an official Press release was even ready.
The Austrian parent company had planned to allow Horner to leave without losing face.
But Horner did not want to accept the dismissal and now called in his lawyers, who intervened at Red Bull in Austria. Horner insisted on an arbitration clause in his contract, which gives him the right to an independent investigation in the event of such allegations.
From Twitter....sorry, still can't do quote thing anymore
And there it is... Jos's play, Max to Merc
Threatening that as leverage to get Horner out.
I was about to suggest that was where it was going earlier this morning but had stuff to do!
The problem with getting rid of Horner is twofold, the obvious one is the total chaos that any new boss will bring, they will all want to put their mates in key positions, and secondly there will be a rush for the door following Horner out.
WorldClassAccident
Free Member
The engineer/ideas swap needn’t mean taking stuff that works between teams. It can be saving time and money by not trying stuff that doesn’t work
Yes, exactly! Thank you
The problem with getting rid of Horner is twofold, the obvious one is the total chaos that any new boss will bring,
Bring f++king Guenther back to F1 and make it interesting 😄
The problem with getting rid of Horner is that any allegations would have to be proven. As yet, we don't even know if that's been done/possible. Can you imagine how much it would cost RB in the event he sued them?
Can you imagine how much it would cost RB in the event he sued them?
I'm sure they've got some boffins working out that vs losing verstappen
I was reading something a few months back (can't remember where) to the effect that Horner and Newey both have "co-existance" clauses in their contracts. I'm not sure what the purpose of these clauses are, but got the impression that they, sorta, tied Horner and Newey together in F1...which would provide a lot of leverage for Horner and a lot of risk for Red Bull HQ.
Anyone know anything about this, or am I imagining it?
I’m not sure they are tied to one another - just that they have clauses that if one leaves the other can with no exit penanlty.
I can’t imagine they come as a pair.
So if Horner left, Newey could leave and follow him but doesn’t have to.
BBC News - Christian Horner: Jos Verstappen says controversy 'driving team apart'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68461379
Front page news on the BBC
Apparently there's been a fall out between Horner and Helmut Marko, as well as between the Thai and Austrian owners of Red Bull. It will be interesting to know the details, once it is all done.
There must be another layer to the onion here if the Verstappens are threatening to leave if Horner stays. I can’t imagine Jos at least would stick a enough of a flag in the moral high ground to walk away from the most dominant car the formula’s ever seen.
I was reading something a few months back (can’t remember where) to the effect that Horner and Newey both have “co-existance” clauses in their contracts
Joe Saward said a few weeks back that it is "believed" that Horner and Newey have those clauses in their contracts. Whether Newey would follow Horner is another question though, he's not young enough that he would want to walk away from the team he built and start again.
Red Bull have got to really, really love Horner if they keep him over Max.
But where would he go? Horner and max aren’t the people who make the car. Could max in a Ferrari or a Mercedes beat Perez or Ricciardo in a red bull?
If this were a play my guess would be that Jos, or someone he’s close to wants horner’s job. Even though, it would be a brave bluff to suggest you’d give up the fastest car if there wasn’t a management change.
"If this were a play my guess would be that Jos, or someone he’s close to wants horner’s job. "
Helmut Marko?
I remember mentioning that I wondered if the death of Dietrich Mateschitz would be the end of Torro Rosso/RB/VCARB. The power struggle now looks more like it could rip the whole thing to pieces if someone doesn't get a hold of it
Thing is; I think that Jos' comments;
"It cannot continue this way, The situation is not good for the team and is driving people apart."
Are pretty much right*, It can't continue. I'd have thought there's now folks at RB who have a completely different opinion of the boss, and its just a matter of time before either RB self destructs or Horner goes.
*never thought I'd agree with Jos about anything!
Captions please!... 🙂
[img] 
[/img]
does anyone actually know what the original falling out with Jos was? I mean max has been clear no1, the car is fast, wtf more does he want!?
There's a bit of history here - need to translate the page and it reads a bit funny, but it makes sense!
wtf more does he want!?
Absolute control of the team that employs his son. Why employ (read; pay) some-one else to do that job, when you can have control over all of it.
https://twitter.com/GrandPrixDiary/status/1764579781109076190?t=w12_HL1Yg0GlYyyOx7K52w&s=09
Not sure this will work...
does anyone actually know what the original falling out with Jos was?
My guess is that it's been simmering for a long time - Max disobeyed team orders to let Perez through in Brazil, maybe in retaliation for Perez crashing in Monaco qualifying. I don't think Max has the personality to let things go and move on, and Jos is even worse. There was also the Nelson Piquet racism scandal - Max is dating Kelly Piquet so Horner saying that Nelson wasn't welcome around the Red Bull team may have annoyed the Verstappens. That's obviously speculation, but I doubt that it was just one thing, more likely just something that's been smouldering away for months or years.
Thing is, I'm sure Merc would love to sign Max as a driver, but they won't want Jos hanging around causing friction. If Merc did sign him, I can't see Merc giving him as much leeway as Red Bull did. Ferrari don't have an open seat and I can't see him going to McLaren or Aston Martin. Audi would be a big gamble and none of the other teams look like they will be contenders anytime soon. Jos may have overplayed his hand here.
does anyone actually know what the original falling out with Jos was?
I think it was Marko that forced Horner to give Verstappen a go in the car all those years ago, Horner wasn't sold on him as a very young driver, and I think it's caused tension ever since. Plus Horner wants what's best for the team - I don't think he'd care is Perez (or who-ever) took the championship; whereas Jos wants his son to be the focus of that (obviously) I think that causes some issues.
Sorry for interrupting the Horny Horner discussion, but just came across this on twitter.
Take a moment to enjoy this nearly perfect lap by Bobby K at Suzuka
ps. keep an eye on his left hand! 👀
https://twitter.com/_moraa17/status/1764344949993070749
I think I remember hearing that there has been some friction previously with the Verstappens about not prioritising Max enough at Checo's expense, so the above comments might be spot on
keep an eye on his left hand!
The F Duct?
I get the feeling that Jos has overplayed his hand. I for one will be very glad if he becomes persona no grata in F1 from now on.
Extract from his Wiki entry:-
After a 1998 incident at a karting track in which a man suffered a fractured skull, Verstappen and his father, Frans, were found guilty in court of assault but were each given a five-year suspended jail sentence after reaching an out-of-court settlement with the victim.[34]
In December 2008, with the couple effectively separated, Verstappen appeared in court in Tongeren, Belgium, charged with assaulting his wife, Sophie Kumpen.[35] He was found not guilty of assault, but guilty of threatening Kumpen in text messages and of violating a previously issued restraining order. He was fined and sentenced to three months probational, suspended prison sentence.[36]
On 29 November 2011, the media reported allegations that Verstappen had assaulted his ex-girlfriend; Verstappen claimed to only have had a discussion with her.[37] In January 2012, he was arrested on attempted murder charges following accusations that he drove a car into his ex-girlfriend in Roermond,[38] but released two weeks later after the charge was withdrawn.[39]
A truly horrid individual.
slowoldman
The F Duct?
Exactly, the stones on the guy to be going through 130R etc with one hand on the wheel and the rear wing stalled!
One handed you say - most of a lap used to be one handed!... 🙂
Yeah, controlling an F1 car would be hard enough with both hands on the wheel i reckon, without having to contend with a gear lever as well.
I’m a professional driver, but I’m under no illusion about handling one of those beasts.
those guys are on a different level to us.