MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Over these mobile phones.
Looks like I'm going to loose, even with admission from the guy that ordered them in my name, an order for them from his company, copies of business cards with his name - the mobile numbers - and another companies name on them. And much more that proves I never ordered them in my name for another business.
Actually told by the judge last time that it would be easier to just pay it and pass it onto my customers?
I can't tell you how stressful it is going through this when you are totally innocent
Bill now stands at about 6K for two unused mobile contracts.
How on earth could you possibly be in a losing situation if the above is true? No offense, but are you acting as your own counsel?
Hmmm. That ain't good. Just shows how unreliable the British justice system can be at times.
Dunno if it's possible, but it might be worth asking around at court to see if any solicitors there have a spare 10 minutes, even if it's just to give you another perspective. My mate was up on a driving charge a few years back and was going in fighting his own corner. He was guilty as, by the way. By pure chance, some guy's solicitor was hanging around cos his client hadn't shown up and my mate got talking to him. He stepped in [i]gratis[/i] as my mate's defense and probably lessened the punishment.
Ridiculous but having been seen first hand how these things work (and some of the moronic decisions that have personally gone for and against) I'm not altogether surprised.
Best of luck - you never know, sometimes common sense and fair play wins.
Try and collar a young lawyer hanging about in the corridors and say "I've got a cast iron case, but unfortunately I made a mess of presenting it. Please can you represent me in court and try to get the judge to see sense?"
That's really crap. Sounds like it's too late to do much about it too. 👿
That's a real bugger! I am having a serious think about a legal case as even though I have the law on my side and will win, the cost of winning might just outweigh the damages to be paid. 👿
Hmm ... the law is an:
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How did it end?
As he's disappeared from the site, it looks like he's gone daan for a stretch. 😮
perhaps he won and is off on the pop?
a no show from the phone company, wednesday now.
Surely if they don't turn up (not the first time IIRC) then they lose?
It's a mess, anyway sorry it's Thursday.
Missed first time due to snow, and judge seemed on my side.
Showed second time, but didn't realise these were never my phones or contract. but the new judge said I should pay anyway and swallow the costs. First witness statement from me then supplied.
Third time they emailed that due to a communications error they couldn't attend. third different judge not happy and seemed on side again.
Fourth and hopefully last day they need to prove I gave permission for this contract. They only have diary transcripts of calls not recordings and an email from an address that isn't mine with my name printed on it.
The phone company had thought I had used this contract from day one, but the contract is linked to a privately owned phone, the same phone owned by the person I can prove ordered this contract.
However the phone company contacted me to say they have a cast iron case.
However the phone company contacted me to say they have a cast iron case.
Are they allowed to do that? sounds like they are trying to intimidate you because they have a very weak case to me. What did your lawyer say?
[i]However the phone company contacted me to say they have a cast iron case. [/i]
well, they would say that wouldn't they?
No idea if you have had professional (ie. not just stw) advice on this but I can't help thinking it woudl help.
Are you liable for their costs if you lose?
No can't afford it. this is the same company that cost me 98k. But they've all gone back to ****stan so no chance of getting anything from them, and their company will soon be struck off. I'm the only tenuous link they've got. Coughing up 98k out of my own pocket has left me broke, if I loose I'll only pay minimal amount.
Remember though this bill isn't for any phones supplied, well one which I got back, or any call charges. This id because they've lost a contract.
They cost you £98k? Was that money you genuinely owed them, or did they stiff you for it?
old git,
Can you explain what is going on here? Have you lost £98k ?
Yes in 2009. that was the cost value of goods supplied to the same company that ordered the phone contract.
Spent 2010 paying everyone back.
Tough year. This phone thing is the final hurdle, just want it over with do I can rebuild in 2011.
Good luck - fingers crossed here.
Didn't win.
But don't have to pay 6k. There's a law that overides fraud, something like percieved agency. Because this ex employee had in the past been authorised to deal with the phone company it was considered fair that the phone company thought he still could.
However it was very clear to everyone that I had no dealings in this and was ordered to pay 1K over the year.
I was also advised to persue the employee. Though the judge leant over and said it was probably best to put this all behind me and get on with work.
And I can sell this flippin Blackberry that's been on my desk for the last 16 months. Don't get excited it's an el cheapo one.
ah, well - sounds like you;re not unhappy with the outcome - as you say it's done and you can move on now.
Must feel like a weight's lifted?
thats poop.
Well, though it's been a diffuiclut situation, and it's not a straightforward area of the law, I'm pleased it's all done and it hasn't cost you a huge amount.
Here's to you getting your business straight again..!
Oh, that 'in good faith bit'.
Yeah had that happen with a bike once. Someone knicked my bike and sold it on. I found the bike again and went to the police, but because guy who bought it had done so 'in good faith' then he got to keep it and i had to whistle.
Had lawyers been instructed...different outcome?
Nah, it wasn't that good a bike
Oh, that 'in good faith bit'.Yeah had that happen with a bike once. Someone knicked my bike and sold it on. I found the bike again and went to the police, but because guy who bought it had done so 'in good faith' then he got to keep it and i had to whistle.
You mean you can't just take it back? That's what I did after the chap riding my stolen bike couldn't tell me the postcode on the frame & I offered to walk to the police station with him to sort it out. Oops
Charlie Mungus - that sucks. I thought that even if you bought it in good faith it was still stolen property and had to be returned to the owner.
I've just bought Buck House in good faith, its now mine so if you can get rid of the old bat, her funny husband and those smelly dogs I can get to redecorating to modernise the place a bit!
Nope, but he kindly let me buy it off him for the price he'd paid for it.
That is/was my understanding too, as the person who had it stolen remains the rightful owner of the property. I've certainly read of people who have had to hand back property/bikes and know one guy who had to hand over an £8k car when he discovered it was stolen.I thought that even if you bought it in good faith it was still stolen property and had to be returned to the owner.
Can't say I'm happy, but it's done now. If the judge had ruled in my favour they would have appealed and that would have meant more days not doing any business.
Learnt a lot over the year. Even that bit on the back of your invoices about the goods being your property until paid for isn't black and white. I.e watching stuff get installed by a company in administration that they haven't paid for and wont pay me for and not being able to didly squat about it...that's gutting.
That is/was my understanding too, as the person who had it stolen remains the rightful owner of the property. I've certainly read of people who have had to hand back property'bikes and know one guy who had to hand over an £8k car when he discovered it was stolen.
I think (and I say think) this is all changing because of the way we do business i.e at more than arms length.
"he bought it in good faith"
"give a shit? it's my bike, I suggest he takes his complaints to the 'seller'"
Look, no matter what, good luck and all the best!
Get the business going, make a fortune, move on. Still gut wrenching.
"give a shit? it's my bike, I suggest he takes his complaints to the 'seller'"
perhaps so, but if he took his complaint to the police, i'd have got pulled for theft. Honest, we went to the police station together. They spoke to him and were convinced that he had bought it in good faith, so it was his bike.
You trusted the Police's opinion on a matter of law? Fool!
Correct me if I'm wrong but if you can prove the bike was yours and reported stolen, isn't the other guy basically handling stolen goods? Citizens arrest!!!
They spoke to him and were convinced that he had bought it in good faith, so it was his bike.
It's a well established legal principle, and the reason why we're all encouraged to insure our valuable goods.
Well, dunno about prove, but I don't think anyone doubted it was mine. But the important part was this bit about 'good faith'.
sorry oldgit i don't know enough about implied agency or the facts of your case to advise you .
I do however know enough about the bike scenario "nemo dat quad non habet" is the rule about stolen goods being sold . You cannot give what you have not got, so a thief cannot give good title to a seller, so if your bike is stolen and sold on it is still your bike in law. The police would not be looking at the civil law which covers ownership of goods but the criminal which deals with whether or not the purchaser is dishonest and naughty so the good faith defence works to avoid criminal sanction not to give him the stolen bike.
pedants please note i am avoiding market overt the HP position plus factors as they are not relevant .
They spoke to him and were convinced that he had bought it in good faith, so [s]it was his bike. [/s][b]he shouldn't be arrested for receiving stolen goods.[/b]
FTFY.
I don't know enough about law to be sure, but common sense (yes yes, I know) would dictate that it can only be "his bike" legally if the seller was legally entitled to sell it in the first place? [i]Surely?[/i]
Otherwise, I could rock on up to someone, say "that Mercedes outside? Give me the keys, it's mine now, I've just bought it in good faith from a bloke in the pub."
I could rock on up to someone, say "that Mercedes outside? Give me the keys, it's mine now, I've just bought it in good faith from a bloke in the pub."
Yeah, sort of. But i guess with a car there are all the usual documents. However, for any other scenario, you'd have to convince the police or someone that it was in good faith.
I suppose I could have gone to court with it, but i couldn't prove it was mine either. It had been missing for a couple of years
What they said up there. That bike is still yours Charlie Mungus. Fair enough not doing the bloke who bought it, but wrong to say it was now his just because he had bought it in good faith. Unless he was disputing it was the one nicked from you, and you couldn't prove it was, in which case they would be on a bit of a sticky wicket if they took it upon themselves to just hand it over to you.
I think the logic of it is that the bike belongs to the bloke who bought it. But this puts them onto the guy who sold it, who then has to make good to me the loss of the bike. (I think)
"I think the logic of it is that the bike belongs to the bloke who bought it. But this puts them onto the guy who sold it, who then has to make good to me the loss of the bike. (I think) "
NO the bike belongs to you it does not become the thief's bike when he steals it, so it is not his to sell so he cannot pass ownership on to the purchaser no mater what good faith the purchaser had so it is still your bike. You get it back. The purchaser takes up his loss with the thief if he can.
You cannot give what you have not got, so a thief cannot give good title to a seller, so if your bike is stolen and sold on it is still your bike in law.
Years ago, a mate bought a car in good faith blah blah ... replaced the lump and had it tuned ... then 6 months later had a visit from the plod saying "Sorry son, you're in possession of a stolen vehicle ... we're impounding it for collection."
Needless to say he was well out of pocket and properly gutted.
NO the bike belongs to you it does not become the thief's bike when he steals it, so it is not his to sell so he cannot pass ownership on to the purchaser no mater what good faith the purchaser had so it is still your bike. You get it back. The purchaser takes up his loss with the thief if he can.
well, that's not the way it was explained to me back then. Having said that, I didn't lose £98K out of it so...
Latin maxim-tastic.
V. basic concepot of law - only an owner can pass title(expecting some limited circumstances)
CharlieFungus FAIL
@ Oldgit - Looks like you've had your thread stolen too! ^^^
😀