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I hate to say it but I think the conductor was in the wrong for making it everybody's problem in the first place. Why should everybody else be inconvenienced because First Scotrail are out £10? The whole thing could have been dealt with without stopping the train or requiring a member of public to take matters into their own hands...
Agreed.
I got the feeling the ticket inspector was trying to belittle the lad by continually shouting out 'why should all these people pay and you not' which is incitement?? Once big man heard that it was translated as "I'm on old man and can't do my job so would someone who likes to throw their weight around please help me out?"
Granted the young oike's response isn't polite, helpful or respectful but I can't see why the inspector invited everyone to shame the kid in public. If it were my son I would have given him a dry slap for behaving like that and then removed his toys, university overdraft and written to scotrail and volunteered him for toilet cleaning duties to payback his sentence. IF, he was fare dodging.
'may' being the operative word
I also think the video only shows what happens half way through the encounter, I have a feeling there was quite a build up to this situation that we do not see.
Perhaps some of us like to see the rule of law not vigilante action.
'may' being the operative word
[url= http://digitalhen.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-16177725 ]no it isn't[/url]
Nah, I think most people like to see the appropriate use of law than the rule of it. Except for fascists of course 🙂
This. Case dismissed.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Perhaps some of us like to see the rule of law not vigilante action.
rule of law being fare dodging wee nyaff holds up train and abuses conductor with no comeback?
Two wrongs don't make a right.
There's only one wrong.
apparently the guy that filmed it had been listening to the foul mouthed kid for about five minutes before he started filming, the kid had been swearing non stop to the conductor which is why he started filming.
So the little prick seems to be a complete and total liar and deserved what he got, hopefully the police wont be so stupid as to prosecute the big man.
I think doing so would remove another element of confidence in the police by the public.
hopefully the little shit will get nothing from this by means of compensation.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
..wonder if he'll try dodging his fare next time he's on a train?
..wonder if he'll be abusive to the conductor when he's asked for a ticket?
No - the comeback is he gets arrested by the BTP
The big man assaults him that is a far greater crime than fare dodging.
There's only one wrong.
There really isn't. I don't think that the kid, the fireman or the conducter come out of this with any great credit.
..wonder if he'll try dodging his fare next time he's on a train?
So anything goes, eh?
No - the comeback is he gets arrested by the BTP
when? do you think they have a fleet of magical flying white horses that appear on demand where and when required? Or should several trainloads of passengers be delayed because of some fare dodger?
still dont see it as assault no matter how you explain it.
Next time a bouncer removes someone from a club for being a dick is that assault?
someone pushes past me in the queue at the supermarket is that assault, get real its not assault and hopefully the police will not waste time on the case.
So anything goes, eh?
being abusive certainly doesn't. I'll guess the wee laddie has learned that lesson.
I agree with 13thfloormonk. What we see in the video is an elderly train conductor who is unable to sort out a possibly drunk student without the right ticket.
I can't imagine scotrail's official line on this is that you should loudly annnounce to the rest of the carriage that the train is going to be delayed unless he pays or gets off, and that you don't really care if this happens. (Basically saying "please help someone I can't deal with this")
..wonder if he'll try dodging his fare next time he's on a train?
..wonder if he'll be abusive to the conductor when he's asked for a ticket?
I wonder if he'll come tooled up next time so he isn't humiliated on youtube again?
D'you think he's going to go 'oh well that's my lesson learned' and be a good kid from now on?
Depends, if he gets a couple of grand out of it it'll just reinforce that if hes stroppy/wants his own way he'll tend to get it.
I doubt he'll be overly popular on his course at the moment.
Sancho - Memberstill dont see it as assault no matter how you explain it.
He manhandles him - its a clear assult. No if but =or and.
You can only use force to prevent a crime if it is proportionate, commensurate and reasonable. this is none of those things.
'big man' asked if the conductor want him to get him off, and the conductor said yes. From this point 'big man' is effectively deputised employee of the railway company and removed the young man using what could be enterpreted as reasonable force. I don't see a significant difference between this and a nightclub doorman ejecting an undesirable from his club. The degree of force used may be a valid topic for discussion, but the actual action seems reasonable.
As to the degree of force, my feeling personally is that it was reasonable; in that it wouldn't have been required if the lad had been compliant, it's application was controlled and stopped as soon as there was no further resistance, and was reactive to the actions of the lad, rather than aggressively proactive.
I fully accept that others may feel different, and I guess it doesn't matter what we think anyway, it will probably be down to the courts to decide. Interesting one to watch though.
Edit; it would be interesting to hear a police officers take on this, as they are definately the experts on the Expert and professional use of proportional force. Any of the STW resident Bobbies care to comment?
apparently the guy that filmed it had been listening to the foul mouthed kid for about five minutes before he started filming, the kid had been swearing non stop to the conductor which is why he started filming.
As Cilla Black would say 😉
Alot of kid gloves get sold around here. Is it because its winter?
Humiliated?? You obviously haven't seen his facebook page, turns out his friends are ****s too
completely disagree with you TJ, being manhandled is not assault
in your logic every copper removing a protester ar the gypsys site should therefore be up for assault, every copper remiving a demonstrator in london up for assault, the kid was manhandled but not assaulted
being abusive certainly doesn't. I'll guess the wee laddie has learned that lesson.
Neither does assault. I expect the fireman won't be doing that again, either.
D'you think he's going to go 'oh well that's my lesson learned' and be a good kid from now on?
I think he's going to get the pish ripped out of him for a while, which is probably a stronger punishment than a £50 fine, ad yes, I do think that that'll be a deterrent
You can only use force to prevent a crime if it is proportionate, commensurate and reasonable. this is none of those things.
enough force was used to remove the laddie from the train when he refused to get off after being asked by the conductor.
You can only use force to prevent a crime if it is proportionate, commensurate and reasonable. this is none of those things.
Seems reasonable to me, but then again I'm not a legal expert like a lot on here 🙄
next time i get thrown out of a night club no matter how i kick off the minute a bouncer touches me should i get him arrested for assault.
enough force was used to remove the laddie from the train when he refused to get off after being asked by the conductor.
The crime had already been committed.
HAHAHA! HEEHEEHEE!! HOHOHO!!!
I'm sure there will be a lot of mixed feelings and opinions on this matter/incident.
However the bigman did not check the ticket for himself or even attempt to understand what was going on, he looked over checked the size of the guy and then intervened.
Had it been necessary to call the police and had the smaller man/youth tried to leave the scene, then intervention would have been acceptable.
However to act like that, without even varifying the information on the ticket or trying to gain a better understanding of the situation before choosing a course of action, is illogical as well as irrisponsible and can only be applauded by fools.
THERE WILL BE NO SHORTAGE OF APPLAUSE!!!
It is necessary that we come to understand situations before we choose our courses of action, if your parents or culture has not taught you to respect that simple obvious fact, then they have failed to teach you something of great value and importance in life!
I would have to at this point wonder, what else they have failed to teach you ❓
He manhandles him - [s]its a clear[/s] [b]could be interpreted as[/b] assault. No if but =or and.
You can only use force to prevent a crime if it is proportionate, commensurate and reasonable. [b]In my highly qualified opinion as a cyclist and nurse[/b] this is none of those things.
There you go sweetie, fixed that for you. I know you struggle with the facts versus opinion thing sometimes. 😉
So if a bouncer pushes me out a club its automatically assault?
then again I'm not a legal expert like a lot on here
then what are you doing here? sorry but admitting to a lack of knowledge is simply not good enough. you have your opinions, state them as fact and be done with it. if any questions you, just post some numbers or invent a quote or two.
He was sitting 6ft away, I think he understood the situation
dosent need to verify anything, he'd had enough of listening to the abusive language of the kid, and also was supporting the conductor who had clarified to the passengers that the kid did not have a valid ticket.
so best learn how to read and listen and observe before criticising people on this ere forum
next time i get thrown out of a night club no matter how i kick off the minute a bouncer touches me should i get him arrested for assault.
Poor analogy. Bouncers are employed by the night club, and are licenced, which includes specific guidance so that actions they take remain proportionate. This is more akin to someone else in the nightclub asking a bouncer if they would like it if they threw you out, and did it themself.
Sancho - Membernext time i get thrown out of a night club no matter how i kick off the minute a bouncer touches me should i get him arrested for assault.
so long s the force the bouncer uses is the minimum needed the bouncer is fine. Thats the point here. the scrote was being a nusience - he was not going to harm anyone one. there was no need to manhandle him.
kaesae - MemberHAHAHA! HEEHEEHEE!! HOHOHO!!!
I'm sure there will be a lot of mixed feelings and opinions on this matter/incident.
However the bigman did not check the ticket for himself or even attempt to understand what was going on, he looked over checked the size of the guy and then intervened.
Had it been necessary to call the police and had the smaller man/youth tried to leave the scene, then intervention would have been acceptable.
However to act like that, without even varifying the information on the ticket or trying to gain a better understanding of the situation before choosing a course of action, is illogical as well as irrisponsible and can only be applauded by fools.
THERE WILL BE NO SHORTAGE OF APPLAUSE!!!
It is necessary that we come to understand situations before we choose our courses of action, if your parents or culture has not taught you to respect that simple obvious fact, then they have failed to teach you something of great value and importance in life!
I would have to at this point wonder, what else they have failed to teach you
Posted 14 seconds ago # Report-Post
I think it's a fair assumption by 'big man' that the ticket inspector knows how to do his job, no?
Me being drunk and swearing dosent harm anyone either
TJ the bouncer is not in any legal position to touch me.
if he manhandles me in the manner of the video then that's assault in your book.
Train companies have unbelieveably strict guidelines for frontline staff regarding passenger confrontations, they cover their backsides and then some.
This sutuation isn't as uncommon as people think. The only reason it's gone viral is that half of it's been filmed and gone on th'internet, then the scrote (who was laughing about it online originally) has then squealed. The guard isn't going to risk his job for an abusive faredodging scrote, the quickest way of resolving the situation (and therefore more attractive option for most passengers) is guard goes away and does a PA announcement along the lines of "we're not moving until the abusive faredodger is removed by the police", which some passengers with problem-solving skills see as an invitation to cut out the middleman (ie the copper who's on his way from 30 miles away).
Everyone wins except the squealing scrote. Maybe if everyone paid the right fare then the 'thieving train companies' thread would be redundant.
The crime had already been committed.
which one, verbal abuse? fare dodging? breach of peace?
there was no need to manhandle him.
because the video clearly shows he was getting off the train of his own free will?
No sancho - it depends on what you are doing - and also again its a different situation has the bouncer has the right to remove you from the premises using minimum force. Public space / priovate space.
teh big man only has the right to use force to prevent a crime and the force must be reasonable commensurate and proportionate.
the bouncer has the right to remove you from the premises using minimum force as well as the right to use force to prevent a crime.
[b]the force used must be reasonable commensurate and proportionate.[/b] is the critical thing
"Assault" seems to be claimed nowadays even if you just touch somebody.
The lad provoked this and could have have walked away when he was ejected from the train.But no ! He wouldn't leave it alone and got pushed over .So what.Happens every Saturday night in town centres.
If you're prepared to be foul mouthed and abusive then someone at some point will shut you up.