[Closed] faith, or the lack of.

I'm with you on this one. I'll happily respect others' wishes to believe in some higher being, deity etc but myself, no. It makes no sense to me at all.

Aliens.  It’s Aliens.  😉

It's interesting how much faith you both have in a materialist philosophy that relies on induction.

For what it's worth, as Descartes noted, the only thing that you can truly know is your own existence. I think you're making the mistake of confusing empirical likelihood within this world with absolute certainty.

JP

People strive to belive in something, it gives them hope and allows them to mentally switch off.

Opium for the masses and all that.

I don't even see why I should respect other peoples beliefs.

it has just come to me that i dont have any faith or religious beliefs.
i believe in my family and my love for them, and hopefully their love for me.

you say 'hopefully' - hope is as much a form of faith as anything. No matter how much anyone might not subscribe to any kind of formal / shared religion or faith we're all people who hope even though you can't really measure the effect hope can have on anything.

Well said Geex.

And I hope people ridicule mine as well.

Faith isn’t just a religious concept though.

Mice not Aliens.

Faith is belief without evidence

Religious belief is just weird to me. I have wondered what I am missing sometimes but having prodded and poked there is no religion shaped hole in me that I can find

Maybe I should just steal all the good bits from other religions. I like the Hindu gods - lots of them - one for every occasion and they can be ( as far as I understand) capricious and mischievous.

Valhalla sounds like a right laugh and probably the best of the afterlife choices - so long as you were a warrior. dunno what happened to the wee fearty vikings that hid rather than fight tho.

In all seriousness the closest I would come to any sort of religious thing would some sort of Gaia concept - that we are all a part of the sum of everything on the planet and increasing the sum of human happiness is where we should be aiming

Those with religious faith can't have much faith in their faith to have to start on the reinforcement job on the next generation so young.

I don’t even see why I should respect other peoples beliefs.

Well, unless you want to come across as a boorish, insulting jackass, respecting other people’s beliefs is just polite*, and lets people just rub along on a day to day basis; to do otherwise, you risk looking like Trump.

@tjagain, I think what you’re describing is a pantheistic humanist, which is how I think of myself.
Regarding the Sacred Wonders programme, I’ve been watching it, and I’ve found it fascinating, and rather enlightening as well, not that I feel any need at all to devote myself to some faith or other.
*There are, of course, some beliefs that just can’t be tolerated or ignored, and do need to be confronted whenever possible. I don’t think I need to point out which ones...

Geex+1
Having said that, I don’t piss on other peoples beliefs either.

I believe in me.

WTF has politeness got to do with what I respect or don't respect?
Who mentioned being boorish or insulting or a jackass about it?
Assuming I'm any of those things towards others beliefs just because I don't respect them actually is boorish and insulting and makes you sound like the jackass here!

@martymac seems to "get" it

Meanwhile, in a far corner of the internet, Woppit becomes aroused....

*There are, of course, some beliefs that just can’t be tolerated or ignored, and do need to be confronted whenever possible. I don’t think I need to point out which ones…

would mass murder under the guise of religion* be one?

Or should we "respect" that?

*religious faith?

"Meanwhile, in a far corner of the internet, Woppit becomes aroused…."
Oh god, no...

Count zero - not really from what I could see from googling that term. Still seems to be too much mysticism and faith overtones with hubris added in.

Its just very simple - the more happiness in the world the nicer place it is to live

My 3 tenets are
"do as much good as you can"
"Do as little harm as you can"
"Have as much fun as you can"

@martymac seems to “get” it

He must have read between the lines.

Always thought of myself as a relatively 'militant' atheist (in the Ricky Gervais mould for example). Do, however, totally understand and defend that other people are free to believe whatever they want about magical sky fairies (not the same thing as respecting their beliefs - just respecting their right to choose). I'm also in the camp that think that atheism is as much a belief system as most religions - which technically makes me an agnostic i guess.

That's not to say I'm not spiritual - just drawn to those ideas that don't involve a supreme being/beings - taoism, bits of buddhism, animism even (but not in the sense that everything around us has a soul or spirit - more about seeing the wonder in the world).

Bottom line for me is - if you're lucky you only have about 4000 weeks here and then you're toast - no afterlife, no reincarnation, nothing. Savour every moment you have, make the most of it, and don't be a dick.

Also been watching the programme, and from a sociological PoV it's fascinating and pretty captivating. Generally beautifully filmed too. Has in no way persuaded me that organised religion is a good idea though...

I don't have faith and it doesn't really bother me at all but I respect the faith of others because if you don't then you're one step closer to Trumpism. If in doubt just follow the 'don't be a d##k' rule.

If you have a faith or belief that leads you to respect your fellow man/woman and the world itself.... Even if "unfounded", I see no harm. The opposite in fact.

It's people that have absolute and complete faith in themselves and are dismissive of everything and everyone else that I really worry about. Mainly due to the huge hypocrisy and their inability to see it. They are also in the ascendancy of late if you watch the news.

Get through a day doing more good than harm. Repeat.

If that's difficult, well....

As for the defined religious side of things? I'd like to think there might be something bigger than us. I suspect I might be wrong in this but I try to live a good life as best I can anyway. Again, where is the harm?

Perfectly put Poop.

I used to believe in Humanity, up until quite recently.

The longer I live, the less I believe in it.

A faith, any faith, IMO should be founded on the base instinct of belief in humanity “good will to all men” and all that.

Yet centuries of these simple words attached together has proven, humanity doesn’t actually believe in that at all.

Religious beliefs, IMO, are there to segregate pockets/groups of humans. They are founded on secularism and not cohesive inclusion. These beliefs have segregated more humans than brought humans together. A natural order that makes each belief distinct from one another.

No matter how “many” humans believe or assign themselves to a religion, it’s still secular however large the group/set/sect.

Agnostic or Atheism is a form of religion in that these beliefs are distinct from religions. Again, as before, form a basis of segregation rather than inclusion.

Politics, a form of belief mechanism, is IMO, a base form of a religion. Secularism based around keeping the “good” to oneself and others who believe, and dismissing the “bad” onto others who disbelieve.

I’m of the belief that humans are designed or destined to be secular, of all the groups who gather together and form a doctrine that doctrine is there only to seek to either improve the small number in that group or make other groups seem inferior or “bad”

And that’s how I see beliefs in humans.

IMO, obvz.

@Colournoise, needs Eulogy to complete the set. We all need to try/strive to be better.

Faith is a concept created by those in power to exert their power on the masses. It originally exploited people’s lack of education to provide something to fear, like a god and hell to keep the peasants in check and prevent them from revolting and rising up against their landlords. And to give them a higher purpose to go and fight their wars for them against the pesky frenchies and the ungodly moors. But now in today’s world where people are generally educated and we know why the sun will rise every day and the rain will fall it seems a bit silly to me. But if it brings people comfort in life then who am I to criticise. Just as well believing in Santa - no idea why he’s less credible to adults than god, after all St Nicholas did actually exist.

So faith is made up and was a tool, and still is, to exert power and control. My religious mother in law is a nice person except when you get onto the subjects that her faith directs, like sexuality for example. In topics like that she’s pretty medieval in her opinions and pretty draconian and according to her, it’s because it’s not how god intended. But you can’t argue with her because it’s her faith.

Susceptibility to religious belief is partly genetic

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7147-genes-contribute-to-religious-inclination/

but I respect the faith of others because if you don’t then you’re one step closer to Trumpism.

There is choosing to respect the faith of others - i.e. I think what you believe in is pish and privately I'll question your judgment and rationality because you do but I respect that is how you are wired so be it and I will act accordingly.

Then there are those (indeed laws to the effect) that expect and feel entitled to demand you respect their faith and allow their interactions with the world around them to change because of their faith. Allowing a Shechita death for animals for kosher meat against all modern understanding of animal welfare would be one of them for example.

The second feels more uncomfortable to me. But maybe you need that to make people play nicely together.

Sandwich
@Colournoise, needs Eulogy to complete the set. We all need to try/strive to be better.

Good call, but I'd go with this as #3...

I( do not get the concept that atheisim is a belief or faith system

Atheism is simply - without evidence it does not exist

If you think  you don't have faith then you don't have a grasp of the basic concept of money.

Fiat money systems rather than commodity money systems are almost entirely faith based.

We all subscribe to the mass delusion that chips of metal , pieces of paper and electronic numbers, all of which have absolutely  no intrinsic value in themselves are actually valuable commodities that we can exchange for good s and services.

All on a promise that, at the end of the day, that a central government  authority will make it good in the end if it ever starts to fall apart, which in reality is not really the case as evidenced by the many historical currency collapses that have occurred throughout the world..

We believe that a pound has a value, but this value is subject to change on the whims of an infinite number of uncontrollable factors e.g Boris Johnson saying something stupid.

It's only the belief that the system works that makes this possible. If we didn't have blind faith in a higher authority ( in this instance the government central bank) we'd still be bartering with each other for beaver pelts and duck eggs.

Money is the new religion. You all have an imaginary sky fairy as a friend. His name is Mark Carney.

Cracking program thought, Sacred Wonders.... superbly filmed.

I have faith in science. An incomplete but generally consistent set of beliefs about the way the environment we live in behaves. Although largely based on evidence it still requires faith because the model keeps being improved, and because I haven't seen most of the evidence personally.

Anyone can believe what they like provided that belief doesn't cause them to act in a way other people find detrimental.

Doesn't 'respecting someones faith' mean you also believe in that faith?
I respect the *fact* that someone has a faith but not the faith itself.
At the same time I don't like anyone telling me I should have a faith either.

I'd make a good Buddhist though, me & Buddha are the same shape!

I don’t even see why I should respect other peoples beliefs.

Because don't be a dick.

Religious belief is just weird to me. I have wondered what I am missing sometimes but having prodded and poked there is no religion shaped hole in me that I can find

By far the most astute and respectful thing I've seen you say on this subect!

On the original topic.. I'm not an artist or really an art lover. There are some things I like, some I love a bit, but that's all I can say. Some people though, art (and self expression) is a profound and fundamental part of their being. Their whole lives revolve around it - it is everything, it defines them. I don't share this but I respect it - I'm interested and I seek to understand, empathise, and perhaps grow myself a little even though I will never be like them.

Faith is the same thing, I think. I seek to learn - both about people of faith and myself. Because the human world is a huge, complex, fascinating and wonderful thing.

What faith is NOT is an attempt to explain the existence of the universe and replace science. Of course, there are nutjobs around, but there are in every part of life. But even then, nutjobbiness is a part of humanity that has always been there, and is fascinating in itself.

It's not something I understand. To decide that you believe in some metaphysical thing that you have no evidence for, and will never show itself to you even if you ask, and then assume that it's got control over everything without actually intervening ever, and loves everyone but will damn you to eternal punishment if you commit any wrong doing, just sounds like such an irrational thing to do.

To then use your belief in something you've never seen and have no evidence for as an excuse for many of the attrocities carried out in the world, or even just some of the bizarre day to day things, is even more mind boggling.

A preacher I was listening to once said
"You're all sitting on that chairs and whether you realise it or not, you had faith when you sat down that the chair would hold your weight off the floor. If you think that "faith" on its own is more important that what your faith is in, then stand up, remove the chair, and sit down on your faith".

His point was about having faith in the right (his) flavour of religion, but its actually a better metaphor for the importance of having faith in things that have some detectable physical presence, and testable effect.

Atheism is an odd word. We don't have a word for "non train spotter" or "non stamp collector". The existence of the word shows how prevalent religion is, because we've coined a word to show how we deviate from that norm, "non-theist"

Maybe the best word for a someone who would rather sit on a chair than just air is "Materialist" (as opposed to a Spiritualist).

I think I'll use that from now on, as it doesn't acknowledge or contain "theism", and it explains what I think is important about the world, and the sort of explanation or evidence I would have "faith" in rather than concentrating on what I don't.

EDIT ...
Countdown to some spiritualist saying "but isn't materialism just another religion" :O)

Let's be clear - having faith is completely separate from using religion as a pretext for being a dick.

I used to believe in Humanity, up until quite recently.

The longer I live, the less I believe in it.

Humanity still exists if you don't fall for the media and bad news agenda.

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/man-down-stw-help-needed/

its actually a better metaphor for the importance of having faith in things that have some detectable physical presence, and testable effect.

Faith in the ability of a chair to support you and faith in God are quite different things. Most religious people (at least the intelligent ones) realise, I think, that God isn't going to intervene in the material world. But that's not what it's about as I understand it.

Let’s also be clear – having no faith is completely separate from using  a disbelief in religion as a pretext for being a dick.

Which , in my experience, is equally common

Lets be clearer - using religion as a pretext for being a dick, requires faith.

molgrips

Faith in the ability of a chair to support you and faith in God are quite different things. Most religious people (at least the intelligent ones) realise, I think, that God isn’t going to intervene in the material world. But that’s not what it’s about as I understand it.

Thats exactly my point. "Materialist" defines the sort of explanations I think have any validity, (or that I might have "faith" in) without needing to reference "gods" or any other number of things that don't exist.

For example, whats the difference between a "God [that] isn’t going to intervene in the material world" and one that doesn't exist?

eat_the_pudding

Member
Lets be clearer – using religion as a pretext for being a dick, requires faith.

Indeed - respect is a two way street and I have had religious people be pretty offensive to me to my face - without even realising how offensive they were being because their worldview is so distorted

using religion as a pretext for being a dick, requires faith.

No, it doesn't. You can pretend to be religious whilst doing anything you want. Pretty sure that's happened a lot throughout history.

For example, whats the difference between a “God [that] isn’t going to intervene in the material world” and one that doesn’t exist?

Faith, of course. That is the entire point. Although we are now well outside the area of the subject about which I am qualified to talk.

I have had religious people be pretty offensive to me to my face – without even realising how offensive they were being because their worldview is so distorted

Of course - there are dicks, there are religious people, the two areas overlap of course.

Hmmm. What people say they believe, even what they think they believe, do not necessarily correlate with what they act as though they believe. I'll tend to judge people by the latter.

Faith is a concept created by those in power to exert their power on the masses. It originally exploited people’s lack of education to provide something to fear, like a god and hell to keep the peasants in check and prevent them from revolting and rising up against their landlords.

Horseshit.

I don't say that because I need to defend faith, but because the quote above is such a grotesque misconstrual of the history of humanity. Faith is an impulse that lies within the human person (in general), that found its expression in ritual, in art and, later, in systematic statements.

Not all human beings across all time have felt (or feel) this impulse in the same way that @molgrips, above, suggested he has no especial regard for art. But what we have always done is to engage in ritual behaviour - faith or no faith. Historically, that behaviour has been predominantly associated with religion, and members of specific human collectives have engaged in ritual as part of the collective expectation.

So, for example, attending games at the forum in ancient Rome. Surely, someone in the crowd will have balked to see another human being cut up with a sword, or devoured by a lion; yet that person still engaged in the ritual of being there.

Faith - like absolutely anything on Earth - can certainly be used as an instrument of control. But your caricature of faith as a thing per se used as an instrument of control, is just anthropologically, socially, and historically ignorant.

TJ, yup me likewise.
I do think the "respect" question is a big one, its a word that always comes up in these topics and I'm not sure it means the same things to everyone.

Some people seem to think that respect for someone means "accepting all their ideas without criticism", but that doesn't work.

People are due respect (and rightly have rights), but not ideas. If you walk into an internet argument about religion, and then demand "respect" (= silence) about your ideas without producing any evidence, then you've probably made some bad life decisions.

Equally, theres a time and a place. To take an extreme example, going to a religious persons funeral and telling everyone that heaven is a farce and uncle bobby is worm food would be a dick move, in exactly the same way that turning up at an atheists funeral and telling the bereaved that their beloved is in hell being tortured for eternity would be a dick move.

(this second example is close to the way I've had religious people behave towards me that was badly timed and they thought was just "speaking the truth").

For what it’s worth, as Descartes noted, the only thing that you can truly know is your own existence

How can you know this?

Funny thing for me is, it's easy to understand why people need to have faith (religious).
But why do so many religious people not understand why the rest of us don't need it?

If you walk into an internet argument about religion, and then demand “respect” (= silence) about your ideas without producing any evidence,

Respect doesn't mean belief, nor does it mean not questioning someone.

Take the 1x debate that is in the bike forum currently. The respectful position for someone on the 2x side is 'well I don't like 1x personally, but if it works for you then that's fine'. The dis-respectful position is 'why on earth would you want to limit your gear range?' or '1x is fine for people who don't know how to work a front mech' or even 'for people who can't manage using both thumbs at once'

I don't believe in God, but instead of assuming all believers are stupid, I seek to understand why they believe in God and what it means to them. And I can and will question it. But there is a respectful way to question. Respectful questions are not loaded with judgement, and the person asking actually wants to know the answer, or to make the other person think about something. Disrespectful questions are rhetorical and are used as constructs to denigrate the other person.

Respecting someone's beliefs in this case means not treating them as stupid simply because they have a different point of view. They may turn out to be stupid, but they may not.

What faith is NOT is an attempt to explain the existence of the universe and replace science.

Lol.

Religious faith is nothing if it not this very thing. This is self evidently the origin of religious beliefs; a man made construct to answer difficult questions in the absence of quality evidence. Humans always want answers; this provides a vacuum that can be exploited by both well meaning paternal types and power hungry controlling types.

No single human being is better equipped or qualified than any other to understand ‘God’s word’. Those who suggest that they are should be viewed with suspicion.

That being said; Wheatons law should always apply. Pity that a lot of religious types haven’t gotten the memo.

Religious faith is nothing if it not this very thing.

That is incorrect.

Otherwise, how could we have religious scientists? People who believe in God and yet still continue to seek answers about science and the universe?

As has been explained over and over again on this forum, the creation story in the Bible is taken as fable by most Christians.

No single human being is better equipped or qualified than any other to understand ‘God’s word’. Those who suggest that they are should be viewed with suspicion.

I think this was suggested by some 16th century German fellow wasn't it?

But some people who've studied the subject are more qualified to talk about what actual religion is and isn't. Religion being an anthropological and social phenomenon it can be studied like any other, regardless of your own personal faith.

Otherwise, how could we have religious scientists? People who believe in God and yet still continue to seek answers about science and the universe?

Humans are REALLY good at compartmentalising, is my guess.

faith, or the lack of.

Just be yourself by living your life as you wish with faith or not as we will all die one day.

Two possibilities about our next step while we contemplate on our deathbed will be whether there is such thing as another beginning or better off being fertiliser.

While contemplating on our deathbed all our memories of the past start to flash back from the day we were born to the day where we see our all our happiness and regrets passing by ...

Then you ask yourself what have done in this life? Why am I worry?

You will hang on as much as you can because fear prevent you from death until such time as you free yourself from fear. Then final breath and that's it ... gone.

I think this was suggested by some 16th century German fellow wasn’t it?

No idea! There’s precious few new ideas under the sun though, so probably 😏

molgrips, thats what I mean about different people having different ideas about what respect means.

Your example makes sense, but what do you do when you meet ideas that just aren't "fine".

Some ideas deserve ridicule but might be harmless to the holders and those around them, flat earth, young earth, evolution denial or lizards run the world. We haven't lost the cure for cancer and noones probably going to die (unless they fall off the edge).

But what about the other ideas, death sentences for homosexuality or apostasy, genital mutilation of children, vaccines cause autism, eternal torture?

Some people see ideas like that as a fundamental part of themselves and they will squeal "lack of respect" if you argue against them.

Thats where misplaced "respect" can be an issue. People deserve respect, ideas don't.

Maybe we should avoid calling someone a ****ing idiot, but that doesn't mean that we can't call some ideas ****ing stupid or ****ing bigoted.

Humans are REALLY good at compartmentalising, is my guess.

You don't have to guess, it's actually pretty easy to explain and, being to do with actual real humans and their writings, is a matter of historical fact. We even have a resident theologian to help you. You just don't want to listen and/or can't be bothered to research the topic you're arguing about.

As has been explained over and over again on this forum, the creation story in the Bible is taken as fable by most Christians.

The trouble is different bits of the bible change from being literal to fable (I personally think myth would be a better word as it doesn't involve anthropomorphised animals) over time and even today different Christian sects disagree on what is and isn't myth. Early Christian sects couldn't even agree on what should or shouldn't be part of the Gospels and that's before it was translated through several languages.

Some ideas deserve ridicule

No, they deserve to be argued against. Ridicule is something people do to poke fun at others when they think they are superior. It doesn't help, it actually makes matters worse and is just unpleasant all round. Arguing properly against a point of view is fine, and everyone should expect it and be able to defend their position against it.

Some people see ideas like that as a fundamental part of themselves and they will squeal “lack of respect” if you argue against them.

Respecting means not dismissing. So if someone for example is against gay marriage you can attempt to demonstrate why it's nothing bad. What you should not do is insult them, mock them and turn away. This, incidentally, is why our Brexit thread frequently descends into bullying. People can squeal lack of respect if you challenge them, yes, but that's poor engagement with discussion from their part as well.

All ideas may be disagreed with, and some do not deserve respect. But faith is "a different epistemic category" (c) SaxonRider because you cannot prove or otherwise. Note that creation stories and such aren't necessarily the same as faith. It's pretty easy to prove that the Earth is more than 4,000 years old beyond reasonable doubt, but it's not easy to prove that God doesn't exist at all.

The trouble is different bits of the bible change from being literal to fable

They do?

As has been explained over and over again on this forum, the creation story in the Bible is taken as fable by most Christians.

Yep, the ability to pick and choose which bits of the book to take literally interests me; it’s a relatively new thing in the history of Christianity I believe. It’s an interesting development in response to both scientific and moral/ethical advances in society. I wonder at what point we reach the tipping point whereby so much of the book is redacted into allegory that it becomes obvious that it is what it is; a 1900 year old man made collection of contradictions and mostly irrelevant, out of date attempts to explain and codify the universe?

(And the same for the other ‘holy books’ too, for the sake of equality)

Faith – like absolutely anything on Earth – can certainly be used as an instrument of control

Faith lends itself perfectly to organising and controlling people, because it involves voluntarily accepting the truth of something without objective proof.
If you start from that position, it's much easier to go along with everything else your chosen faith system proposes.

They do?

Over time, yes. to be clear I'm talking about many hundreds of years.

No, they deserve to be argued against. Ridicule is something people do to poke fun at others when they think they are superior. It doesn’t help, it actually makes matters worse and is just unpleasant all round. Arguing properly against a point of view is fine, and everyone should expect it and be able to defend their position against it.

Your position would make sense if people were actually convinced by rational argument but they're not. The point of ridicule in many instances is not to convince the person with the ridiculous view but rather the other members of the audience.

Thanks for joining in Saxon rider but I am afraid you are generalising - I certainly have no need of faith nor does anyone in my family.

Organised religion is certainly a means of controlling people and faith is a human construct not an innate thing in any way. Faith is an invention of organised religion to control the credulous

You are conflating things that are not faith based with faith.

You don’t have to guess, it’s actually pretty easy to explain

No, I DO have to guess. Or take someone’s word for it. Because as you point out, this is a discussion completely devoid of fact, it’s a matter of ‘faith’. Which means, ipso facto, my opinion is as valid as anyone’s...

Horseshit.

I don’t say that because I need to defend faith, but because the quote above is such a grotesque misconstrual of the history of humanity. Faith is an impulse that lies within the human person (in general), that found its expression in ritual, in art and, later, in systematic statements.

Right back at you. Faith or religion is not an impulse within humans. Nonsense. Understanding the world around us is the real natural instinct we have and the gaps have been filled in through here history to enable people to Weil day power over the tribe/villagers/peasants etc. Faiths and religion are entirely man made constructs and not natural or human instincts at all.

Let’s be clear – having faith is completely separate from using religion as a pretext for being a dick.

Definately, & when I sit on a chair, I don't have faith in it, I have trust in it.

My Mrs was in hospital last week & a gobby woman was also on the ward. A conversation came up about their illnesses & Gobby said to another patient, 'haven't you found the lord yet? because he'll take all your worries away'.
WTF?

quite a can of worms this.

one thing that made me think last night was the people in Jerusalem at the church of the holy sepulchre.

why is the chosen priest the only person allowed in to see the Holy Flame appear?

makes you think eh?

Saxonrider - I wonder if you make the mistake I have seen many times confusing your own mental processes where faith seems self evident and natural (??) with those of non believers where faith seems nonsensical.

I know enough to understand that I have no idea how those with faith think - its incomprehensible to me. Do you think you understand the secular mindset?

Faith or religion is not an impulse within humans. Nonsense.

I think you'll need to argue with anthropologists on that subject. As far as I know, there's evidence for a form of religion in every single human culture ever studied, past or present.

Bring your evidence please!

Or take someone’s word for it.

Well, there are real people who actually exist who have faith and are scientists. You could ask one - or read what they've written. So you don't have to guess what their motivations are.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1416542744/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1416542744&linkCode=as2&tag=thebiofou06-20

So you don’t have to guess what their motivations are.

You miss my point. Those people could I’m sure tell me what their motivations are; but they will be absent of fact, based in ‘faith’ (which is just opinion put on a pedestal) and therefore absolutely no more (or less, to be fair) valid than my guess.

I believe in God.

But to me, God is just a better version of me, somewhere inside of me, with a proper functioning conscience, and mostly inaccessible to the conscious real me.

But it makes me feel better to speak to him, call out in times of need and plead "help me ride down this bloody section without falling off JUST FOR ONCE won't you?" Just like everybody else's God. And just like all the other Gods he's helped reinforce all my prejudices (both nice and nasty. Yes, Birmingham City fans, I'm talking about you - bluenose scum).

And exactly like everybody else's God, he's never intervened, changed anything, manifested himself or done anything remotely helpful. Except helped me feel better (and maybe be a better person) by talking to him.

Those people could I’m sure tell me what their motivations are; but they will be absent of fact

You're missing my point. Their motivations are facts. You may not think that they are in turn based on facts, but that is a separate issue.

which is just opinion put on a pedestal

Only someone who's never bothered to really listen to an intelligent person of faith would think that.

Soorry molgrops - faith is belief without evidence - thus its merely an opinion with nothing to back it up.

Don't be dazzled by sophisticated arguments.

I believe in God.

But to me, God is just a better version of me, somewhere inside of me, with a proper functioning conscience, and mostly inaccessible to the conscious real me.

That’s a fascinating insight. And I can completely relate to what you are saying. But respectfully, it doesn’t sound like you actually believe in ‘God’; more like you believe in mostly trying to be a better person and you call that system of ‘conscience in hindsight’, God.

I’m pretty sure it’s different. The religious do NOT have the monopoly on morality.

I wonder if you make the mistake I have seen many times confusing your own mental processes where faith seems self evident and natural (??) with those of non believers where faith seems nonsensical.

I know enough to understand that I have no idea how those with faith think – its incomprehensible to me. Do you think you understand the secular mindset?

You make the assumption that these two mindsets are a binary choice,  that people are either believers or not.

The real word is much more nuanced than that.  What of clergy who have lost their faith?

What about those, like me who were raised in an atheist household and only found faith as rational, self determining adults?

Do I not understand the secular mindset?