Ok, hands up, I did break a speed limit which I am genuinely gutted about as I do religiously (apart from this time) stick to speed limits and moan about others who don’t. Long story but on the a 697 in Northumberland and didn’t realise the limit started as far out of a village as it did. Didn’t stand on the brakes as there was a car up my a&£e and camera van nabbed me almost as soon as I’d crossed the line.
Anyway, fair cop and offered a speed awareness course. Did it this week.
Some interesting stuff and an interesting range of society participating. The trainers did their best to make it interesting and relevant.
There was a bit of general scaremongering going on though.
1. It’s illegal to use your phone as a satnav when driving even if it’s fixed in a holder.
2. Smart motorways have hidden sensors in the tarmac that can defect tailgaters or middle lane hoggers and prosecute them as if they were speeding (great if they could but I can’t believe this is the case... the instructor seemed to be making it up when pushed)
The advice on the internet about using your phone to pay for goods at a drive through is a laugh...
Using a mobile phone /smart watch to scan
Potentially there could be legal issues with using a smart watch/phone to scan/pay for goods services whilst driving riding e.g. at a take away food retailer or car park, but it would be a matter for a court to decide. To avoid any problems, we would suggest that if you wish to pay in this way you stop, turn the engine off and get out of the vehicle to scan your watch/phone.
I thought it was just illegal to touch the phone when driving.When used as a phone or satnav basically? Using it as a nav in itself isn't illegal surely?
As for paying for a maccyd etc, that's on private land, not a public highway... So can't see that as illegal either??
I’m glad you put the “ “ around “facts”
As they most certainly aren’t 👍
Best most useful thing I learned on my awareness course was "Handles out, bin men about. Handles in, bin men have been."
I now make sure I leave my bin the correct way around when I put it out.
I thought it was just illegal to touch the phone when driving.When used as a phone or satnav basically? Using it as a nav in itself isn’t illegal surely?
The law says using a handheld phone for an interactive communication purpose whilst driving is illegal (s41D(B)). BUT that doesn't mean that if the device is not handheld you aren't committing a separate offence of either driving without due care and attention (s3) or using a vehicle whilst an electronic device obstructs your view [I paraphrased that one - which I think is s41D(A)]. ANY portable sat nav could fall foul of either. Even an in built satnav could get you in bother for operating the functions whilst driving if they show you were not driving with due care. I imagine as an instructor on these courses its probably easier to teach to the dumbest person in the groups level, than worry about the nuances of the law.
As for paying for a maccyd etc, that’s on private land, not a public highway… So can’t see that as illegal either??
Its in a place the public have access to - so the RTA still applies. Until someone decides to try a test case (which means not just going to magistrates, but then whoever loses appealing) there will be no absolute certainty - but does the phone actually need a data connection to make a payment (anyone tried it in airplane mode). If not then I think a reasonable lawyer would show that it was not within the meaning of an interactive communication; even if you managed to find a police officer, and a prosecutor who thought it was worth pursuing. As far as I am aware nobody has yet faced the question whither a watch strapped to your wrist is "handheld".
I did a course about 4 years ago. I picked up a couple of things. But, one of the main things I took from it was that it doesn't stop people speeding. It was my first (and only) speeding course but I was in the minority. Most had done them before. The two men delivering the course were very patronising and talked down to us until someone asked if they had ever had points on their licence. They changed their tone, but only a little bit.
It's detention for grown ups. You have been a little bit naughty so you have to give up a few hours of your time to show you're sorry.
The one I did a few weeks ago in Hants by comparison was well presented, not remotely patronising and focussed a lot on what to look out for to avoid inadvertently speeding, so visual clues other than the blatantly obvious big signs with numbers on!
Did seem concerning to me though just how many people didn’t know they were speeding until the letter arrived.
I would agree with mattbe above. Did course a few years ago now, also Hants, it was useful and I certainly speed less and pay more attention to my speed when driving.
J
2. Smart motorways have hidden sensors in the tarmac that can defect tailgaters or middle lane hoggers and prosecute them as if they were speeding (great if they could but I can’t believe this is the case… the instructor seemed to be making it up when pushed)
There are inductive loops hidden in the surfacing that can detect lane occupancy, vehicle speed and length and flow patterns including the gap between vehicles. However the data is for general network usage and to alert the Regional Control Centre to potential incidents, they are not suitable for enforcement. Check out Webtris to see some of the output. The loops are being phased out in favour of radar which is less of a maintenance liability and can gather data on vehicle shape to aid with categorisation.
but does the phone actually need a data connection to make a payment (anyone tried it in airplane mode). If not then I think a reasonable lawyer would show that it was not within the meaning of an interactive communication;
A phone doesn't need 'data' to work for contactless payment, but it is communicating (with data) to the NFC reader, so technically, I think that may still count. Either way the phone doesn't have to be used for interactive comms to break the law, if you have turned it off and use it to squash a fly on your dashboard, its still technically illegal
In fact, your card itself is also enabling 2 way data comms to an NFc reader when you tap, so maybe using that is technically illegal too??
Either way, you won't get prosecuted, it's not in the public interest
I thought it was illegal to touch your phone whilst driving. So if the satnav function was set before you started the car and you didn't touch it until you reached your destination and parked with the engine off it should be ok. However we all know that nobody really does that. The woman in front of me on the M1 on Momday was merrily flipping through her phone between satnav and messages with it attached to her windscreen.
Long story but on the a 697 in Northumberland and didn’t realise the limit started as far out of a village as it did.
Powburn? Yeah that 30mph limit sign before the garage is not just for decoration.
Powburn? Yeah that 30mph limit sign before the garage is not just for decoration.
Thought of signing up as one of the course leaders there drac. Should fit in nicely with the patronising instructor type 😂
So if I "hey Google" while driving is that ok? I've maybe done it to: set nav destination, make and answer calls (both to avoid a smash on the bypass, and tell Mrs 100th I'd be late) and skip tracks on the music player.
The one I did a few years ago was quite interesting.
Learnt a few things, what actual defines a "dual carriageway" was something I didn't know.
However, the instructor was patronising and very anti cyclist. Some of her remarks were unbelievable.
You're allowed to touch a phone whilst driving, for any purpose just not hold it. Obviously you can be done for driving carelessly if the above means you are driving carelessly (ie, responding to a text, unlike pressing 'answer' on a call)
There seems to be a lot of confusion and interpretation on what you Can do and what you Can Not do with a phone whilst driving.
Who knows the “truth”?
You’re allowed to touch a phone whilst driving, for any purpose just not hold it.
Guess again.
Thought of signing up as one of the course leaders there drac. Should fit in nicely with the patronising instructor type
I've lived and worked in the area for years, I've seen why the 30 mph was moved further out of the village. It was a 40mph by the garage a few years ago which meant people didn't realise it started so soon and were doing nearer 50 in the village. They then changed it to 30mph which is shown by signs and road markings.
Best most useful thing I learned on my awareness course was “Handles out, bin men about. Handles in, bin men have been
You'd be in trouble in Stirling then. Our bins are lifted by front lip, so bins are always handle in....
I'm very aware of my phone these days - it's my sat nav and music in the car. I use Android Auto and voice control, and it has a good feature that freezes it if you touch the screen for much more than a prod, discovered while one of my kids was attempting DJ status.
A friend is traffic cop, he suggested that a phone on dash mount being prodded occasionally was fine. Holding it, mounting it middle of screen (as is more common) or nodding dog lap mounting results in some blues and a word, probable fine..and anything that looked like texting of Facebook was instant angry cop and certain points.
Yes Drac. It was powburn. I just got caught out as I was com8ng south and overtook someone who was doing 40 in the 60 up the road and before I knew it the limit had changed from 60 to 30 on the bend before the village. I couldn’t slam on the anchors as the car behind had also overtaken and was right up my a&£e. That’s the thing, I was aware of what I was doing and just try8ng to do the right thing at the time. In hindsight I prob shouldn’t have overtaken the guy in front but you know how it goes, I’d been following him for a while, he was doing 35-40-35 in the 60 which can get a bit frustrating. I was genuinely annoyed with myself as I just don’t speed through places like that as I live in a place where people do habitually and it annoys me.
Regarding the course, it was useful for some stuff and the instructors did their best. It just annoys me when people make stuff up or over egg something to scaremonger those who are a bit stupid.
It would be great if the authorities could solve tailgating on the motorway through the average speed cams on smart motorways but I bet they can’t. The instructor was emphatic that they could and have prosecuted people already.
And the McDonald’s payment issue - surely the more distracting thing there is picking up a happy meal or a boiling hot Costa - rather than using your phone like a credit card to swipe a keypad.
Thought it would be there and at least you admit it was a silly mistake.
Such a shame that those offered a responsibility to help us understand how to be safer reduce their credibility by lacing a vocabulary with bullshit.
I did a speed awareness course 4 years years ago which had none of that yet was incredibly educational. I still remember the content now, which is a testament to its purpose when delivered correctly.
#2 sound like BS
might be able to detect that there's too much traffic too close for the speed. prosecute? no, not unless there's a camera too.
would be nice to have though, especially in Germany. €240 fine there for tailgating on the autobahn, roughly 4x the fine for a speeding ticket for not too much over the limit. I've even been tailgated by the Polizei, who must have been so close they could read the SatNag thru the rear window (with me making doubly sure I was not using it!).
at least you admit it was a silly mistake
That's another one you naughty naughty boy!
We had a similar person doing 35/40 in a 60 on the way back from Wales on Sunday, it is a little bit infuriating, and there was at least 25 cars behind him at one point. The main problem was the lady directly behind him was right up his arse but would not overtake, so she wasn't leaving enough room for a simple one car at a time overtake. Several loons did a three car blitz but like the op there was definitely a few areas where I wasn't sure of the exact speed limit at the time, so luckily I've hopefully stayed in dracs goodbooks.
That’s another one you naughty naughty boy!
WTF are you waffling on about?
Your patronising approach to anyone who ever speeds, that's all.
Eh? Because I said he at least he admitted it was a mistake.
🙄
guess again
How about you guess again, Drac..
Provided that a phone can be operated without holding it, then hands-free equipment is not prohibited by this legislation. Therefore, the use of a phone as a sat nav is lawful providing you don't have to hold it.
I'm assuming that Drac's attitude to speeding is due to having to deal with the results on numerous occasions. A bit of mild disapproval is a fairly restrained response.
There's a chap who lives near me who got done for speeding (40ish in a 30 IIRC) and opted for one of those courses. The 'instructor' stood up at the front and said something like, "Now, you all know why you're here. Driving around like you're a F1 World Champion. Well, you're not, are you? None of you are."
Said chap raised his hand slowly, and sheepishly grinned. "Erm, actually, I am."
And he is. 😁
I thought that the speed limit change there must have moved north from where I thought it was nearer the garage. I assumed I had room for my overtake but was into the lead in to the 30 before I knew it. Don’t drive it that often but it deffo caught me out. Even caught my father in law out - advanced driver, ex mountain rescue team leader, general safe and legal bloke. I think lots of folk have been pinged there. Perhaps some advanced warning of the wind down to 30 would help. Iirc the limit change is just round a corner. With a tailgater slamming the brakes on isn’t an option.
Provided that a phone can be operated without holding it, then hands-free equipment is not prohibited by this legislation. Therefore, the use of a phone as a sat nav is lawful providing you don’t have to hold it.
Indeed, I hope everyone has read timba's link ? If you do all your questions will be answered.
Said chap raised his hand slowly, and sheepishly grinned. “Erm, actually, I am.”
The helmet should have been a bit of a giveaway really
(40ish in a 30 IIRC)
83ish on a motorway
Smart motorways have hidden sensors in the tarmac
Not only that! But leading up to [i]most[/i] traffic lights... "have you ever wondered why, when you're in a hurry, the lights always seem to go red..?"
Sort of bullshit that undermines the usefulness of these courses. I know there are a hell of a lot of morons out there, but don't treat us all like one.
If you get frustrated with people who drive slower than the speed limit, then you probably shouldn't be driving. There's no place for frustrated drivers on the roads.
Driving around like you’re a F1 World Champion. Well, you’re not, are you? None of you are.”
Said chap raised his hand slowly, and sheepishly grinned. “Erm, actually, I am.”
Easy answer - shut up and save it for the track.
Thanks for the link timba
Some folks on here would do best by spending 10mins reading it eh?
🤷♂️
Iirc the limit change is just round a corner.
It's on a long straight it changes and has painted indications on the road, I think it has a warning before but may be thinking of another stretch but there is an led display showing your speed but it was probably too late.
How about you guess again, Drac.
You said Any though it's not any.
Learnt a few things, what actual defines a “dual carriageway” was something I didn’t know.
I don't mind admitting that I get confused about national speed limits on single carriage ways, dual carriageways etc and to recognise when it changes. I don't understand why they use national speed limit signs, why not just use an actual speed limit sign?*
*edit, I should add that I usually end up driving slower than I probably could, I'm a bit paranoid about it so eer on side of caution.
A couple of observations:
a) we all think that we are better drivers than we actually are.
b) we don't like being told that we aren't as good as we think.
I get confused about national speed limits on single carriage ways, dual carriageways etc
A dual carriageway is when there is a physical barrier between the traffic lanes. There may be only a single lane going in each direction but there are 2 "carriageways".
You can have 2 lanes on each side of the road, with no physical separation and that is a single carriageway.
NSL is 70 on a dual and 60 on a single.
why they use national speed limit signs, why not just use an actual speed limit sign?
Seems pretty daft and pointless to me as well.
why they use national speed limit signs, why not just use an actual speed limit sign?
Because NSL is different for different classes of vehicle. Not that this seems to have registered with most van and lorry drivers.