Because NSL is different for different classes of vehicle. Not that this seems to have registered with most van and lorry drivers.
Yup because of that.
5lab- if you check the definition of a phone in the legislation you will see it doesn’t cover NFC frequencies. If you read the case law you will see it has gone some way to confirming that use requires interactive communication. Squashing a fly may still be driving without due care but if contested will NOT get a conviction at court under s41(d)b.
Having NSL signs is sensible as it allows both different limits for different classes of vehicle as @Martinhutch points out and also means those limits can be changed without having to change every sign in the country.
It's up to you as driver of a vehicle to know what speed limits apply in any given situation - ignorance is no defence in law and all that.
I did a speed awareness course in London about a year ago. The folks running it were both driving instuctors so a little on the patronising side, but not too bad. While some of the information they passed on was clearly wrong there was some interesting stuff in there. What I noticed most on the course was how little the majority of the group actually seemed to know about speed limits - or driving in general in fact.
The most surprising thing though was that, despite all the warnings, when someone turned up for the course a good 45 minutes late they still let them in and let them complete the course.
whitestone
A couple of observations:
a) we all think that we are better drivers than we actually are.
b) we don’t like being told that we aren’t as good as we think.
Speak for yourself. I'm a shit driver, which is why I try to avoid it mostly.
Weird thing is - most people really really get annoyed by having their driving criticised. I just nod, yep, can't help it. I'm safe around vulnerable road users though, I'll give myself that.
Because NSL is different for different classes of vehicle. Not that this seems to have registered with most van and lorry drivers.
But those lower limits still apply when it says 70 in a red circle, so the logic fails. As I understand it, the reason is a historical legislative one. The NSL sign means it is an unrestricted road and therefore the national limit applies; any other sign requires a traffic regulation order or similar to apply a limit (even if that limit happens to be the same as the NSL would have been). Imagine if a government chose to change NSLs - say increasing Mways to 80 and reducing single cway to 50 for cars. They can do that with one blanket order and no need to change the signs. It’s really not that hard to expect someone who drives a car on the road to know two numbers:
Barrier/divider down the middle - 70
No barrier - 60.
Unless streetlights.
The area where I have some sympathy for is the car derived van v van, where subtle differences in how the vehicle was registered make a difference, especially for those using multiple vehicles through work etc.
It’s up to you as driver of a vehicle to know what speed limits apply in any given situation – ignorance is no defence in law and all that.
It would be interesting to find out how many folk with normal vans on here aren't actually aware that they should only be doing 50 on a NSL single carriageway, and 60 on a dc. I think the latest mobile cameras cross-check vehicle class with DVLA.
You said Any though it’s not any.
for what purpose are you not allowed to use it then, assuming your driving does not fall below the standard to be considered driving carelessly?
f you get frustrated with people who drive slower than the speed limit, then you probably shouldn’t be driving. There’s no place for frustrated drivers on the roads.
Well 35 in a 60 is frustrating and I'm sure most would agree. If it had been for say 5 mins no problem but it was for nearer 40 mins. It was a Sunday and we were pootling home from holiday so no great drama other than laddo wanted to get back to hit the jumps with his mates, however it clearly was causing frustration with other drivers who were going for the big overtakes at some very inappropriate moments.
Anyhoo I'm going to read timbas link as we used my phone as a sat nav on the way home.
I still think the 60mph limit for vans on proper dual carriageways is hugely outdated. Especially the lighter load capacity ones. What is the difference between most of them and a motorway where 70mph is permitted?
Well 35 in a 60 is frustrating and I’m sure most would agree. If it had been for say 5 mins no problem but it was for nearer 40 mins.
I agree it is very frustrating. Also, the amount of drivers I encounter that bimble along at 40 on a 60 and then don't slow down going through villages is unbelievable.
However, you have to put it in context, 40 mins at 35 instead of 60, only wasted 15 minutes of your time. So it made little or no difference even to laddo and his jumps.
According to the sat nav on the phone it was 20 mins so the time/speed almost tallys up, as I say we were stuck behind him as I couldn't safely overtake, I'll be honest there was a couple of spots where I could have taken a couple of bimblers at a time but I knew for a fact I'd be speeding once the overtake was completed so that was the factor stopping me from doing it. Back in impreza days it wouldn't have been an issue as it would have been in and out of each individual car quite easily.
Timbas link was useful since I have a car that I use a cradled phone for satnav.
To the OP. It’s odd that they didn’t have the /// then // then / 30mph warning signs coming into the village since a 60mph to 30mph drop is quite a large speed change.
60mph to 30mph drop is quite a large speed change
Drive in north Wales or round here in Derbyshire and it's a standard thing.
Drive in north Wales or round here in Derbyshire and it’s a standard thing.
Or pretty much anywhere across the UK.
Not only that! But leading up to most traffic lights… “have you ever wondered why, when you’re in a hurry, the lights always seem to go red..?”
Sort of bullshit that undermines the usefulness of these courses. I know there are a hell of a lot of morons out there, but don’t treat us all like one.
The A75 going west from Dumfries actually does appear to have two sets of those! There are two sets of lights in/out of a village which serve no purpose, but always go red if you trigger the sign before them!
The most surprising thing though was that, despite all the warnings, when someone turned up for the course a good 45 minutes late they still let them in and let them complete the course.
If they had driven a bit faster they may have arrived on time...
I still think the 60mph limit for vans on proper dual carriageways is hugely outdated. Especially the lighter load capacity ones. What is the difference between most of them and a motorway where 70mph is permitted?
Dual c/ways can have crossing points/slip roads on the right, shorter entrance slips, potential for tractors and other slow moving vehicles (including cyclists and mopeds), possibility of pedestrians crossing, approaches to roundabouts and even traffic lights none of which appear on m/ways.
Unless streetlights.
The streetlights thing is a tricky one. For a start, it was never mentioned at all when I learned to drive, I'd be amazed if your average driver knew about it.
It really only applies if there's no other information. If you've got a single carriageway with regular streetlights and no other signage, it's probably a 30; streetlights and NSL repeaters, it's a 60. It's really just a rule of thumb - the limit that applies is whatever it said on the last pole you passed.
gastromonkey - It’s detention for grown ups. You have been a little bit naughty so you have to give up a few hours of your time to show you’re sorry.
I think that is one of the two fundamental problems with these courses. They are perceived as exactly this by a large number of people who attend, they have no real intention on changing their behaviour or learning from the experience. Most people are there to avoid the points and its effectively made it a "15 pts" to a ban world.
I think the second problem is there is significant variability in quality/consistency and lack of fact checking, as this thread emphasises. The same applies to all sorts of low end training though - first aid courses, health and safety courses etc.
Dual c/ways can have crossing points/slip roads on the right, shorter entrance slips, potential for tractors and other slow moving vehicles (including cyclists and mopeds), possibility of pedestrians crossing, approaches to roundabouts and even traffic lights none of which appear on m/ways.
So why do vans have to go slower for those reasons?
The streetlights thing is a tricky one. For a start, it was never mentioned at all when I learned to drive, I’d be amazed if your average driver knew about it.
. Jesus how old are you? Did they not teach this when you no longer needed a man with a red flag to walk in front of you? When I learned it was generally described as "built up areas" but then the question was "how do you know it is a built up area? - it has streetlights". I'm fairly certain that anyone who has sat a theory test will have had to revise something to that effect not to mention anyone who drove in a built up area during their test or training (surely almost everyone) had to comply with the limit - exceeding it would get you a fail.
It really only applies if there’s no other information. If you’ve got a single carriageway with regular streetlights and no other signage, it’s probably a 30; streetlights and NSL repeaters, it’s a 60. It’s really just a rule of thumb – the limit that applies is whatever it said on the last pole you passed.
its not a rule of thumb. A road with streetlights (whether a single or dual c/way) with no signage to the contrary is a restricted road and therefore a 30 limit. If there is signage to the contrary it will have repeaters, and usually signs on every side road.
Greater braking / stopping distances?
I did a course a few years ago. I took two things away from it:
1) Anyone coming away going "wow, I learned loads" probably shouldn't have been on the road in the first place. There were a couple of interesting bits but it was mostly very basic stuff.
2) The number of people probably falling into the first category was astonishing.
The carriageway example above for instance, I think aside from the instructors I was the only one in the room who knew the difference and what the limits were on them. I guess this is why you see so many people doing 40mph in a 60 - they genuinely have no clue what the speed limit is.
"The use of a mobile phone or similar device for texting/internet access etc, while driving is also prohibited if the phone (or other device) has to be held in order to operate it."
So if the phone is in a cradle it's legal to access facebook whilst driving? I must be confused as that sounds ridiculous.
You must stay in full control of your vehicle at all times. The police can stop you if they think you’re not in control because you’re distracted and you can be prosecuted
Texting or reading facebook you're not going to be in control, being a in a cradle does not make it so you can do any task.
Greater braking / stopping distances?
And this is where I say it's outdated.
I'd hazard a guess at my light payload transit sport stopping quicker than a Chelsea tractor with 5 fat businessman types on board. Vehicle braking has moved on massively and all the tech that goes in to it nowadays seems to be ignored.
A road with streetlights (whether a single or dual c/way) with no signage to the contrary is a restricted road and therefore a 30 limit. If there is signage to the contrary it will have repeaters, and usually signs on every side road.
This does seem like a pretty crazy way to organise things. I think laws that the general public are expected to follow on a daily basis should be VERY clear and obvious. It really shouldn't be a logic quiz.
Drivers should never be left thinking: "Ah.. right so there are two carriageways here, but does that reservation actually count as a physical barrier or not? Oh there are overhead lights, but I think they might be more than 183 metres apart. There's no repeater sign but is that because it is a 30 where repeaters are not required or because it is an NSL and the lights are far enough apart?"
I’d hazard a guess at my light payload transit sport stopping quicker than a Chelsea tractor with 5 fat businessman types on board.
And if it's carrying several tons? It'd be a nonsense to have separate limits for laden / unladen goods vehicles, it'd be impossible to police.
Vehicle braking has moved on massively and all the tech that goes in to it nowadays seems to be ignored.
No arguments here. To the best of my knowledge the braking distances listed in THC haven't changed in my lifetime, I'm reasonably sure that my 17-plate Octavia can out-brake a Ford Anglia. Veering dangerously back on-topic for a moment, I questioned this on the SAC and got told that thinking distances haven't changed, which is a bit of a non-answer really.
Of course, the speeds at which you're likely to kill someone rather than injure them in the event of a collision hasn't changed all that much.
quicker than a Chelsea tractor with 5 fat businessman types on board
Never happens. Max is 1 adult and a couple of kids on the school run.
I did a course, and the only thing I learned is that the reason you don't always (or even usually) get repeaters in a 20 is because with traffic calming it's not required.
The instructor did claim, after asking people what possible reason there could be to tailgate, and me failing to resist "slipstreaming", that you had to be within 30cm to get a benefit. My cycling experience says no to this, but I didn't bother arguing.
Jesus how old are you?
I passed my test in 1990. The theory test didn't exist then beyond half a dozen THC questions at the end of the practical.
then the question was “how do you know it is a built up area? – it has streetlights”.
You know, I don't recall ever feeling the need to ask a driving instructor what a town looked like. I was reasonably familiar with the concept by that age.
A road with streetlights (whether a single or dual c/way) with no signage to the contrary is a restricted road and therefore a 30 limit.
Yes, and whilst we're seemingly patronising each other I've highlighted the important bit of that for you.
The only time you'd ever have to worry about this is if you've forgotten what the last sign you passed was, or missed it. This can readily be resolved by paying attention. The number of times a speed limit changes without signage is never.
The most interesting thing that was put forward at mine (that I had not considered before) was that braking is not linear - ie the majority of actual slowing happens in the final moments before stopping. So even if the overall stopping distance at 35 is only a few metres more than 30, the amount of speed you will be carrying into those extra metres will be a lot more than 5mph.
Vehicle braking has moved on massively and all the tech that goes in to it nowadays seems to be ignored.
No arguments here. To the best of my knowledge the braking distances listed in THC haven’t changed in my lifetime, I’m reasonably sure that my 17-plate Octavia can out-brake a Ford Anglia.
I'm no 'making progress' driving god but one minor indiscretion on the way out of village past the last junction, house and pavement but crucially before the NSL sign did see me doing a speed course a few years ago. The instructor tried to pre-empt that question by saying that although brakes had improved, this was off-set by 'reaction time' - I asked how reducing the largest part of the overall time to stop would be off-set by the smaller part staying the same but didn't get an answer.
I also asked if they could explain why DfT guidance in the form of Manual for Streets & DMRB had been updated to reflect the performance of modern vehicles rather than relying on the Highway Code (1960s?) but again no answer.
Once they'd come out with bollocks about the most dangerous driver they'd ever known did the course and became an instructor themselves I knew it was just Bullshit Bingo / Adult Detention and nodded and smiled at the appropriate moments to go home as soon as possible
I did one about 8 years ago, all the above sounds familiar- mixture of patronising and useful info, plus a collection of drivers with virtually no knowledge of road rules. It's a miracle things go ok most of the time if that's your average driver, and knowing so many terrible drivers are out there is another reason for driving slower. I was caught at 9am on a Sunday morning, sunny, dry, no traffic, dual carriageway. Had sped up after 70 went down to 50 with a speed camera, camera van was waiting around the corner. So while I felt annoyed that a trap like that wasn't going to catch a dangerous speeder and conditions were safe for my speed, I could hardly complain about getting caught. I already drove very carefully in 20 and 30 zones, usually under the limit by 5 - 10mph depending on situation, but on faster roads I viewed the speed limit as more of a guidance figure, just don't get caught. While the course was 50/50 good/bad, it definitely made me think about the issues, and I calmed my driving down a lot. I certainly gave it a lot more thought than if I'd just got another SP30. I'll still occasionally do 80-90 on a clear motorway or d/c if it seems appropriate, but 75 is my default max speed most of the time.
And if it’s carrying several tons? It’d be a nonsense to have separate limits for laden / unladen goods vehicles, it’d be impossible to police.
But that's the thing people like yourself don't get. Most standard transits won't even carry anyehere near a ton legally mine include. You could easily have the same weight in a 7 seat toerag/disco or galaxy.
a collection of drivers with virtually no knowledge of road rules.
The number of times I hear this observation on these threads just reinforces my strong belief that all drivers should have periodic retests. Maybe once every five years or so.
In any other walk of life, if you are in charge of a piece of machinery that was responsible for 170,993 injuries a year - 24,831 of which were serious and 1793 were fatal (RRCGB 2017 figures) - then you'd need regular re-certification to demonstrate you knew how to operate it safely. But cars? Nah. Pass a test at 17 and you're still good 60 years later. Going to a different country where the road rules are different? Pfft you'll be fine, just wing it.
In any other walk of life, if you are in charge of a piece of machinery
That reminds me, my npors 360 card has run out....after Just 2 years!
The number of times I hear this observation on these threads just reinforces my strong belief that all drivers should have periodic retests. Maybe once every five years or so.
+1
Even if it was just a thing for new licenses to begin with, then rolled out across the population I reckon it'd make some serious cash for the government.
The drivers from overseas thing is also interesting - can live here for a year with no compuction to do anything, then go for a holiday, come back and start again.
The number of times I hear this observation on these threads just reinforces my strong belief that all drivers should have periodic retests. Maybe once every five years or so.
Its a valid point and one where once I used to think “for the over 60’s” but now conclude “everyone, regardless of age, if they hold a valid driving license”
And also I used to think “FOC tests” but now think it ought to be a mandatory £250, which makes it a) a commitment to continue driving and b) expensive enough for the driver to think about what they are actually paying for.
🤷♂️
Trouble is that such a law could be political suicide unless it was spun very carefully.
A £250 charge on top is a laudable idea, but the general public wouldn't stand for it. War on motorists. Punishing the poor. etc etc
Perhaps that part can wait till autonomous vehicles are more commonplace on the road?
do they teach basic maths e.g. 5 miles through a village at 30 mph vs 5 miles through a village at 40 mph? Saves a whole 2.5 minutes - wow.
If I was sat in stationary traffic, would I still be committing an offence using my hand held device if the engine isn't running...for example, on auto stop/start?
Hypothetical question, just wondering how the law addresses it.
As I understand it, you have to be parked up in a safe place with the engine switched off
'Safe place'
Makes sense otherwise anyone could just manually switch the engine off at lights etc.