Could Webber have turned his car back to full power though? Surely he knew pretty quickly that Vettel was racing for position (and his defensive tactics showed in the preceding corners that he knew Vettel was trying to get past).
So, if he could have turned it up, why didn't he?
And if he did, then he was beaten fair and square.
It's a fair question and I don't think it's been answered but I can see that he might have been a bit caught out given that there was no reason to expect it.
It's a nonsense. Modern karting does not breed the type of racer that senna used to be. He simply would not have been part of modern F1.
clubber - Member
It's a fair question and I don't think it's been answered but I can see that he might have been a bit caught out given that there was no reason to expect it.
The battle went on for what, a lap and a half? If he was still caught out during the whole adventure then he deserved to lose.
Ah, I only saw the highlights and barely that so maybe missed that it went on so long!
The fact though as I explained earlier was that Vettel was faster because aside from anything else, he was on the faster tyre. I don't thing the issue is that really, more whether when the team says to do something and they've agreed it then they should do what they say - eg keeping your word. If the team had said to both, off you go, do what you want then fair enough. The team was VERY concerned that the tyres cold blow out if they raced (particularly if they flat spotted their tyres) so they had a pretty good reason to not want them to race.
I think they were both turned right up and going as hard as they could, but Webber's mentality had already reset to 'cruise' and was just taking that bit longer to tune back in to 100% race pace.
That and he simply isn't as good as Vettel.
I am not sure how I feel about it all though really - yes there should be team agreements and it is daft to challenge and potentially put a team mate out of the race, but at the same time we want to see the best racer win and it made for some great racing.
Serious question to those that think that Vettel was in the wrong - Would you have been happy watching that Grand Prix knowing that 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th had all been decided by the two front teams? Other than the fact that it would've made for the dullest 16 laps in history
Happy? Not really no but then I'd have preferred that all teams just run without team orders. This was a slightly unusual situation in recent times in that the teams were running in tandem. Team orders don't tend to work very well between teams as is usually the case up front...
My issue is simply that they agreed something beforehand and then Vettel just chose to ignore it when it suited him. That's not behaviour that I admire I'm afraid. If he'd refused beforehand to agree to 'multi 21' and would stick to it if the roles had been reversed then that'd be fine.
dullest 16 laps in history
Did you watch F1 in the 2000s? 😀
but the truth of it is revealed if you imagine the roles were reversed and it was Webber doing all the overtaking. Would this thread have been full of anti-webber vitriol? The answer is of course no,
What a new angle to the troll now 🙄 I disagree with your prophecy re the answer as the nationality is irrelevant to eveyone but you who wish to labour the point to death
and the fact that Webber is Aus, is a minor one, clearly "we" like him, he's a substitute Englishman in this instance, and a "good man"
Ah substitute englishman you say - your "racism" shines through for I am British but not english - I assume I should, in your myopic world view, hate them both and perhaps webber more for being "english".
Its a very weak argument you make though i expect you to continue labouring it.
I'd say that any favouritism towards Webber would be on account of his 'tell it how it is' character and the fact that many people feel he's been unfairly treated by RB at times. If you consider those national characteristics, then maybe you have a point 🙂
re: Senna
to be honest Modern F1 would be a different place, as a lot of the issues from Modern F1 came directly from his death, so if he had been around, it would be different.
I also believe that even if Senna had left the driving seat, he would still have been in F1 and perhaps steered it towards a different direction.
It was certainly interesting to see him mellow a little in the latter years of his driving career and work more pro-actively in driver safety (considering what he'd done to Prost and his more youthful attitude of go-for-broke regardless of cost...) and would certainly have been very interesting to see how he could have influenced the sport as an ex-driver. i wonder if he would have been where Todt is today?
As for Senna and the Team Order - he would not have been in that position because the entire Team would have been built around him and he would have been about 32 seconds ahead of Webber from the first few laps in the mixed conditions (yeah i remember DONNINGTON too, probably the greatest drive i ever saw) 🙂
Junky, do you ever think to yourself, "I really must take things more seriously...I'm far too fippant"
ever..at all?
i grew up hating prost and senna for making F1 predictable, with only Mansell and (sometimes) Piquet upsetting the cart! We are fortunate today of having drivers quite evenly matched (Lewis, Seb, Fernando, Button, Webber, Robsberg, Kimi, the list goes on). In part that is due to the regulations and the tyres. I am really enjoying this era of F1 and long may it continue.
As for the note earlier about Red bull being a bunch a **** and a one man show (Newey). Utter nonsense, Adrians car at Leyton House was a shocker, one of the McLarens never made it to a race track it was so bad...........
Junky, do you ever think to yourself, "I really must take things more seriously...I'm far too fippant"ever..at all?
do you ever think that when you can no longer defend your view that doing ad home on me does not make you or your view look any better.
What shame you cannot admit the stupidity of your original statment and I feel sure your brave attempt to call me names when floundering will fool everyone.....why not go for a full house and play the Edinburgh defence for the racism claim?
"Adrians car at Leyton House was a shocker, one of the McLarens never made it to a race track it was so bad..........."Mashiehood. Leyton house! This was in the 80's! 30 years ago! The poor sod can only have been in his 20's! How good were you at your job in your early career? And March were hardly a disaster. For a low budget team, their results were decent, in a time when there were 15 plus teams on the grid.
As for his time at McLaren, that was hardly awful either. World title in 98? Mika Hakkinen had success in Neweys cars, and they even made Coulthard competitive!
I think you've totally missed the point. Look at the Williams years alone. The fw14-19 were unbelievable. Watch any race from the 1993 season, the advances which were later made illegal were embarrassingly awesome.
Then we come onto Red Bull. A team of nobody's. Two average drivers. (Coulthard was at red bull before he retired remember!!, and he was always shite!) Then a couple of years later, 3 consecutive world titles.
No one guy has had a bigger influence on f1 car design. Credit where its due.
So there!
No one guy has had a bigger influence on f1 car design.
I was with you right up until you forgot about Colin Chapman
Colin Chapmans a damn fine call. Although his innovations were revolutionary, a lot of legendary drivers lost their lives in his radical cars.
landofgiants
newey is undoubtedly a great designer, an amazing aero designer but you need to remember a few other, Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne, John Barnard, Patrick Head, Colin Chapman, Harvey Posthlwaite, Neil Oatley etc. were also great designers and have designed amazing cars, consistently.
The point im making is you also need a team to achieve greatness and the Red Bull team is a great team full of very talented people. i am a big fan, but im also a fan of Williams and Ferrari.
I can go with that. I just think that in a time when the margins between the teams is so fine. For that team to stand above many seasoned teams, that man is the deciding factor.
Id like to see what he could do at a Marussia or a Caterham!
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😀
That's a no then...
Really, lighten up chap. I haven't attacked you, If I wanted to make a [i]serious[/i] point d'you really think comparing some-ones face to a puppy who's done a whoopies is the way I'd do it?
do try to stop filtering other peoples posts and responses through your own viewpoint, other people think and act differently and have different motivations. OK?
Really, lighten up chap.
Perhaps retract your pointless and defamatory statement, then he might.
Zokes, do you ever think to yourself, "I really must take things more seriously...I'm far too fippant"
ever..at all?
😉
To you guys who cry " real " racing is lost , do you agree that what we want is One set of tyres, One tank of petrol and less laps will give us the best solution?
Zokes, do you ever think to yourself, "I really must take things more seriously...I'm far too fippant"ever..at all?
Frequently. On this occasion I was going to call you an arse, but decided I'd better be serious and call you a **** instead! 😉
Sorry - that was too easy to resist.
😀
Really, lighten up chap. I haven't attacked you,
Not interested in the personal stuff but thanks for all your praise then 😕
do try to stop filtering other peoples posts and responses through your own viewpoint, other people think and act differently and have different motivations. OK?
LOL you have got so into just doing "insults " you forgot what started this exchange it was when you suggested this as the reason people objected
If its not Vettel, it's Alonso, if not him, then Schumacher is dredged up. There's more than a whiff of "johnny foreigner being unsportsmanlike..."
Your doing well here defending that view 🙄
Brilliant
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If its not Vettel, it's Alonso, if not him, then Schumacher is dredged up. There's more than a whiff of "johnny foreigner being unsportsmanlike..."
Also, for what it's worth, I consider plenty of British drivers to lack sportsmanship/class too. Hamilton currently springs to mind (and he was genuinely a nasty piece of work in the lower classes) but in the recent past loads haven't lived up to what the ethos of drivers from the past. Maybe those days are well and truly gone but you can see from some sports that there's no reason for win at any cost. At the most basic level, if he agreed that after the final pitstop, if one driver was leading that driver would not be challenged by the other, he should have stuck to it. Win at all costs is fine, but there's loads of evidence that two drivers working against each other can be costly (or even fatal).
Having now watched the highlights of the race, I now know that my original statement is perfectly valid, and see no need to adjust my position. 😀
Was funny to see Webber whinging. Go and race properly then Pom, or be that great 'team player' that does what he's told, and stop moaning.
Interesting to see the difference between Vettel and Rosberg. One committed to win, the other lacking the balls to go and race. I wonder how Hamilton would have behaved had he been stuck behind Rosberg in a similar situation? The strategy employed by Mercedes is against the spirit of true competition, and makes for very boring viewing. Which is something I doubt Bernie, the sponsors or any proper racing driver wants.
Nice to have you back Elfin 😉
The strategy employed by Mercedes is against the spirit of true competition, and makes for very boring viewing. Which is something I doubt Bernie, the sponsors or any proper racing driver wants.
It's been part of racing since the dawn of professional teams. Bernie, sponsors and proper racing drivers have to live with it.
The root cause of the 'anti racing' antics of last week's GP were the regulations surrounding limitations on numbers of engines, gearboxes etc per season. I don't think the teams choose to have the number of engines they're allowed limited. It's a long season.
