[Closed] F1 time

Bollocks!

Most famous british racing driver?

Remind me again how many WCs he won, I've forgotten.

Worth a millon Schumachers and a thousand Vettels.

Bollocks. 😉

Well, an ability to see beyond greed and selfishness is what distinguishes a hero and a gentleman from a mere winner.

Remind me again how many WCs Moss won, I've forgotten.

What do we think of Lewis Hamilton; a driver so determined and focussed he was prepared to lie (along with his team) in order to gain an unfair advantage, as well as ram other drivers off the track etc?

Vettel was only able to beat Webber after Webber turned his engine down. Hardly racing.... 🙄

You would think that he would've turned up back up as soon as Vettel started trying to pass then, eh? If he did, then he got beaten. If he didn't, then he rolled over. Either way he looks like a looser, whereas the winner goes home and ****s the prom queen

😉

Remind me again how many WCs he won, I've forgotten.

Well, that was my point 😀

The man's a national hero because he raced like a decent human being, rather than a thoughtless machine.
The fact that he didn't win a top flight world championship is irrelevant.
He will be remembered as a hero and one of the all time greats.

Shumacher may well have one of the greatest records when it comes to results, but his achievements will always be tainted by the knowledge that he behaved like as spoilt, ungracious little shit.

Vettel's only mistake was to 'apologise' to webber. I would respect him more if he'd just turned round and said 'look Mark, I'm better than you, end of. If you really want to beat me, and think you have what it takes, then do so. If you can't do that, then stick to being number 2. And quit whinging'. 😉

Maybe we should start calling Webber 'Pom'. 😀

The man's a national hero because he raced like a decent human being, rather than a thoughtless machine.

If I wanted to watch someone being a 'decent human being', I'd watch a documentary about Princess Di or Mathatma Ghandi or whoever. But I want to be entertained when it comes to sport. So I prefer the pantomime villains to the do-gooders. Because the villains are far more interesting. 🙂

Because the villains are far more interesting.

Look, for a salutary lesson about what happens to cheats and rotters I recommend that you watch this excellent documentary on the early history of cross channel aero racing:

[img] [/img]

Who ended up in the sewage?
[img] [/img]

Exactly.

😆

'look Mark, I'm better than you, end of.

Well actually, he was on different tyres which were the faster ones which he'd left to the last stint so that if he was fighting FA or similar, he'd stand a good chance of getting past. That's probably part of why he was frustrated to be told to sit behind webber who was slower (at least in part due to his slower tyres) because it meant that he wasn't going to get the chance to use the faster tyre and if he'd known that, he'd have used them earlier in the race and quite possibly been ahead of webber in the first place...

He was still wrong to overtake.

He got passed because Webber let him.

Was that before or after nearly putting him into the pit wall?

If its not Vettel, it's Alonso, if not him, then Schumacher is dredged up. There's more than a whiff of "johnny foreigner being unsportsmanlike..." Oh and as if on que comes a properly respectful English gent . 🙄

Hamilton is hardly the most popular person here, is he?

nickc - Member

If its not Vettel, it's Alonso, if not him, then Schumacher is dredged up. There's more than a whiff of "johnny foreigner being unsportsmanlike..."

It's got nothing to do with nationality 🙂
Fangio is generally considered the most sportsmanlike of racing drivers.

It's about being a whining, duplicitous little weasel.
Something the three drivers you mention surely know an awful lot about.

Anyway, I'm off to the pub.
If anyone is at the bar when I get there, should I push in before them, apologising afterwards whilst saluting the assembled throng?
Or should I just wait my turn like an adult? 😀

The new rules necessitate a more tactical approach which is clearly difficult for some people to understand.

With 12 WC between them....

Let's be honest here, F1 has never, will never be about being "fair" it's about winning. That's why those drivers are successful Innit

[i]It's got nothing to do with nationality[/i] apart from the Old guy being British, and the others being Spanish or German

He got passed because Webber let him.

Ah, so Webber is happy to stay number 2 driver, and help Vettel win another WC then? That's jolly decent of him.

He was still wrong to overtake.

Of course; how terribly ungentlemanly of Vettel to try and actually win a race. But then how can he be 'wrong', if Webber sportingly 'let' him win? 😕

Shumacher may well have one of the greatest records when it comes to results, but his achievements will always be tainted by the knowledge that he behaved like as spoilt, ungracious little shit.

No they won't. He'll be remembered for being an incredibly focussed, committed and talented seven time WC. Which he was/is.

If anyone is at the bar when I get there, should I push in before them, apologising afterwards, just after saluting the assembled throng?
Or should I just wait my turn like an adult?

Depends on whether or not it's a 'race'. 😉

If its not Vettel, it's Alonso, if not him, then Schumacher is dredged up. There's more than a whiff of "johnny foreigner being unsportsmanlike..."

Vettel drove past Weber like a Panzer trying to get the French coast. This time it was not following ze orders.

I think the fundamental issue in the whole situation is the management at RedBull - Brawn faced a pretty similar situation with both Merc drivers wanting that last step on the podium, but he dealt with it firmly and that was that. There's no real sign that anyone at RedBull did the same thing - messages from race engineers rather than anyone higher up. If Dr Helmet had got on the radio to Vettel I expect the situation may have been different, but AFAIK Horner didn't lay down the law to either of them.

Team orders (yes they are and always have been a part of many forms of motorsport) will only work if there's respect both ways, and at least some inkling of consequences if they're not followed. Vettel acted that way because the disobeying the team to win was more attractive than the option of obeying the team and coming 2nd, ergo he's not that bothered about what comes next.

8 engines. Could bite a few teams that rule..

F1 needs to decide if it's a race for Team against Team OR Driver against Driver....you can't have both.

There has been a Constructors title for more than 50 years.

.

tyger - it's a race of drivers who are employed by teams. Always has been. If you asked a team principal if they'd prefer to win either the constructor's title or the driver's title they would all give the same answer.

I *think* that the horse racing world has jockeys as free agents employed by the horse owners on a race by race basis, which would turn the F1 model on its head. Don't know of a single motor racing series that works like that though.

Still, at least Alonso didn't win... 🙂

If anyone is at the bar when I get there, should I push in before them, apologising afterwards, just after saluting the assembled throng?
Or should I just wait my turn like an adult?

If there's only 1 beer left then yes, thirstiest bloke wins

[i]Its a great trollargument defeated only by the fact they are both johnny foreigner [/i]

but the truth of it is revealed if you imagine the roles were reversed and it was Webber doing all the overtaking. Would this thread have been full of anti-webber vitriol? The answer is of course no, and the fact that Webber is Aus, is a minor one, clearly "we" like him, he's a substitute Englishman in this instance, and a "good man" (obeys orders) and he has a face like a puppy who's just done a whoopsie, whereas we're more than happy to have Vettel as our panto villain, and better still he's a dastardly Hun, he can no more help himself overtake against orders, than walk past a sausage, or wear leather shorts under his overalls....

However the alternative is factory drivers full of PR speak following Team orders and very very dull Grand Prix, thank heavens for the likes of the Vettels of this world.

he can no more help himself overtake against orders, than walk past a sausage

Best line of the thread for me

"Vettel drove past Weber like a Panzer trying to get the French coast. This time it was not following ze orders."

You didnt read history then.

Red bull is a team of tits with Adrian Newey designing their car. I don't think either Vettel or Webber would contend in another car, both average drivers. Christian Horner is a weak gaffer too. They are the team that nobody supports. Ask anyone who their favorite f1 team is, and any that say red bull are soulless weirdos!

that sir, may be the weakest "xxxxxx team are shit" post I've ever read!

Didn't go all out. I will now though!

It's not that they are shit. It's more that they are impossible to like. Soulless, gutless, charachterless whinging tossers.

Iv always been a McLaren fan. Probably due to the Senna era, but more recently Hamilton. They have class and style, and you don't get this bollocks squabbling. And I don't count the Prost/Senna era as squabbling, as both had balls and openly hated each other. Rather than "oooh sorry I passed Mark by mistake" or "Sebastian wasn't supposed to pass me, oooh" (both said in Kenneth Williams stylee!)

Red Bull is a team made good by one man's design. Adrian Newey has had succes everywhere he's gone. So Red Bulls success is his amazing feat, not two tit average drivers, or a weak ass team leader.

Can't wait til Newey goes elsewhere, or Hamilton starts sticking to them. Then listen to them piss and moan.

how it should be:

followed by:

nickc - Member

It's got nothing to do with nationality apart from the Old guy being British, and the others being Spanish or German

No, it hasn't.
So please stop telling me that I'm a xenophobe.

but the truth of it is revealed if you imagine the roles were reversed and it was Webber doing all the overtaking. Would this thread have been full of anti-webber vitriol? The answer is of course no, and the fact that Webber is Aus, is a minor one, clearly "we" like him, he's a substitute Englishman in this instance, and a "good man" (obeys orders) and he has a face like a puppy who's just done a whoopsie, whereas we're more than happy to have Vettel as our panto villain, and better still he's a dastardly Hun, he can no more help himself overtake against orders, than walk past a sausage, or wear leather shorts under his overalls....

You can keep repeating it all you like, it doesn't make it true.

I could give you a list of my favourite drivers if you like.
Most of them are not British.
But there's no point, you've already made your mind up, despite others politely telling you that you're wrong.

This is how you secure a championshio:

nice clip. when schumi did it he was a c***, but senna gets movies made of him and everyone admires him - hmmmmm

Nah, everyone loves Schumi now after his underdog swansong

Interesting isn't it. A matter of charm? I could say it's because Senna got killed but people were more accepting of his less positive character traits than they were/are with Schumi even before that.

I wonder if Senna would have done what Vettel did? I can't help but think not though I reckon he'd have been haranguing the pit wall until they said yes, go through.

I wonder if Senna would have done what Vettel did?

I reckon that's a yes.

I think Senna would have done it, but done it differently.

1) His team mate would have known it was coming and wouldn’t have slowed up thus making it easier for him to be caught.

2) Senna wouldn’t have tried to wriggle out of it with a cringe worthy apology. He’d have said something along the lines of “So what? I beat him. Man up.”

If Vettel had always intended to go for it he should have said so rather than allow Webber to believe that his position was safe.

Bernie and the sponsors will be loving this. I bet the viewing figures are higher for the next race as a result.

thepurist - I can't see the vid - which one is it?

clubber - 'if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver... because we are competing, we are competing to win not to come 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th'

That's not like for like though is it. Webber had been told to slow and that Vettel wouldn't be overtaking. It's hardly a 'proper' racing move.

I reckon that Senna would have either said that he'd not agree to a team order to hold station or he'd have ignored the order and then said something about always racing to win but either way at least being open about it.

I think Senna would have done it, but done it differently.

Senna would have walked away from this era of the sport altogether. It's not the same F1 that existed in Senna's era and it's not one Senna would have been a part of or been able to exist in.

No chance. It's still the pinnacle of motor sport so he'd have been racing but probably complaining loudly about the bits he didn't like.

FWIW, I think he'd have enjoyed some of the challenges of modern F1.