W Series is an odd one. You can’t argue with it’s aims but it leads nowhere. Perhaps they should part fund a drive in F3 as prize for the winner. Winner bringing the same budget they bought to W Series.
If a 3 time winner is struggling to move on it shows something is wrong.
Agrees. We have no idea how good Chadwick actually is, very difficult to find a benchmark to judge her against.
I would love to see an F2/IndyLights/WEC team take a punt and give her a go.
Wasn't there a feeder series which gave a drive in a big series as a prize a few years ago? IIRC something like the Clio Cup giving a BTCC drive to the winner? I would like to see the W Series winner get similar.
I’m finding it interesting that RB aren’t going quietly here. If it was all being brushed under the carpet, or they were getting away with it I wouldn’t expect them to be posting this
https://twitter.com/redbullracing/status/1579500220735492098?s=20&t=VAwqW_RXHdIkAg4zLdSO6A
Sweapstake time!…
How long do we think this will rumble on for through the courts?
I’m saying it won’t be sorted until next season starts.
I’m saying it won’t be sorted until next season starts.
Correct. For me thats x 2 Red Bull world championships that are tainted. I find it hard to hold them in high regard at all. I'd hate to work their, imagine how hard some of those staff have worked only to find that someone in the system constantly cheats you out of a clean victory, effectively making you complicit in this everlasting suspicion of wrong doing.
How long do we think this will rumble on for through the courts?
I’m saying it won’t be sorted until next season starts.
Then we have this seasons cost cap results as well. If they thought they were getting away with it last season then you can bet they thought they would get away with it this season as well.
I’m finding it interesting that RB aren’t going quietly here. If it was all being brushed under the carpet, or they were getting away with it I wouldn’t expect them to be posting this
Agree
I am surprised you all still watch after last season, F1 currently has nothing to do with sport it's just a big joke.
For me thats x 2 Red Bull world championships that are tainted. I find it hard to hold them in high regard at all. I’d hate to work their, imagine how hard some of those staff have worked only to find that someone in the system constantly cheats you out of a clean victory, effectively making you complicit in this everlasting suspicion of wrong doing.
1. Last year wasn’t Red Bulls doing
2. “Constantly cheats”. What?
Then we have this seasons cost cap results as well. If they thought they were getting away with it last season then you can bet they thought they would get away with it this season as well.
If I were Horner, I'd accept some financial penalty for this year, then lay some staff off and run the last 4 Grand Prix with minimum staff to ensure no over-spend bleeds into 2023.
Fining them the amount they overspent by, would be an apt punishment. Or lower their limit for spending by that amount for next season.
A fine won't be any deterrent unless it's utterly massive. A better way would be to just have a rolling budget spread over several years. You can overspend this year, but your budget for the next couple of years will be reduced by that amount.
A better way would be to just have a rolling budget spread over several years. You can overspend this year, but your budget for the next couple of years will be reduced by that amount.
Im not convinced that’s much of a deterrent especially when the overspend related to a period of fundamental change in regulations and how aero works. Getting the basics right in yr1 would be worth having to cutback a little at dinner point in the future by when the cap might be higher than now
I haven't followed the season but this story has got me looking at things again. If the FIA don't come down pretty hard on RedBull then it makes a complete mockery of the whole cost cap and the sport as a whole. If a team can overspend at a critical time - at the beginning of new regulations when the most performance gains can be found the easiest and when battling for a championship - then not get a punishment that corrects the advantage then it's one complete farce. Last season's result was dodgy anyway, this just makes it downright wrong in my eyes. How many race results would have changed if Max or Perez had had a car that was 1/10 of a lap slower all race? Enough to affect both championships definitely.
The penalty for RedBull needs to be enough to negate any advantage they gained last season and also to stop them building on that advantage this year and the next. I have no real idea how you would ensure that though, maybe the only fair way is to scrub RedBull from last year's results table but no-one moves up so that we have no champion for last year. The same as Le Tour did when they removed Lance's wins from the record books. Either way Max is going to have an asterisk by both of his championships and any more he wins in the next year or two. A sad time for the sport in general.
Let's face it, <5% of £115 million is definitely a championship alerting amount of money, easiest way would be to increase all other teams budget by the amount red bull have overspent, and strip them of last season's trophy.
1. Last year wasn’t Red Bulls doing
The current cost cap investigation relates to last year. They’ve been found guilty.
2. “Constantly cheats”. What?
See above, see the pressure they put on Masi, see flexi wings etc, and yes I’d bet a fiver on the fact that they are again pushing at the cost cap. The latter point we might agree was pushing the boundaries of developmental rules and that all teams are guilty of that, but we do find red bull have more suspicion attributed to them than most.
We’ll likely never know how much performance the extra cash did or didn’t unlock, but suffice it to say they used it and others didn’t and red bull appear to have a dominant car in the majority of conditions. Like I said before, if the performance impact of exceeding the cap was at least minor I feel sorry for the team, because it shows they worked hard to get a great car on track only to be let down by their management team who appear to want to win by the all edged cheating.
After 38 years of following F1 pretty closely I've boycotted watching the 2022 season after the 2021 season ending farce. What have I missed?
Red Bull benefitting from F1 rules not being implemented properly you say, quelle surprise...
What is bonkers is that up to 5% overspend is considered "minor".
RedBull are apparently claiming the overspend was on catering and sick pay, so no great crime....but if they aren't properly punished, why shouldn't every other team do the same (and use the catering and sick pay budget for performance upgrades).
But it's the FIA...they won't do anything.
Remember when the discussion was more about racing cars ....... ?
It's sad but politics and money have ruined the class.
Remember when the discussion was more about racing cars ……. ?
Were you watching during the Moseley era? That was a massively litigious time with all sort of protests and decisions. Nothing much has changed, dispute and argument has been part of the sport for years (remember Hunt and his bulging... tyres). One job of F1 personnel is to find grey areas in the rules and exploit them, then other teams complain and the whole thign gets reviewed and that grey area becomes black and white, so they move on to the next grey area. If RedBull have done that then every other team will be 1) furious that they didn't think of it and 2) doing all they can to reverse the advantage that RedBull got by doing it.
With regard to the W series I firmly belief that Chadwick should have had a FP1 session in the Williams. They didn’t have anything to lose by replacing Lattiffi.
After 38 years of following F1 pretty closely I’ve boycotted watching the 2022 season after the 2021 season ending farce. What have I missed?
You don't need to know, because you've boycotted it, right?
For me thats x 2 Red Bull world championships that are tainted
Lol! 🤣 Some people...
With regard to the W series I firmly belief that Chadwick should have had a FP1 session in the Williams. They didn’t have anything to lose by replacing Lattiffi.
What level is the W series though, in terms of car performance? Because if it's lower than other classes, then shouldn't the route be through those? I'm all for women being encouraged into motorsport more, but if the W series cars are nowhere near F1 performance, then there's the risk of women drivers being out of their depth if they do get to drive an F1 car, and this would only fuel the naysayers and misogynists. An F1 car is nearly twice the weight of a W-S car, and has nearly 4x the power. That's a massive step up.
Like I said before, if the performance impact of exceeding the cap was at least minor I feel sorry for the team, because it shows they worked hard to get a great car on track only to be let down by their management team who appear to want to win by the all edged cheating.
Doesn't matter if the extra spent found only minor gains or even none at all, it's an advantage as they haven't spent the money within the cost cap on it so they can use that for other avenues of performance.
RedBull are apparently claiming the overspend was on catering and sick pay, so no great crime…
Catering budgets and sick pay are part of running a team, why should they be different to anyone else?
RedBull are apparently claiming the overspend was on catering and sick pay, so no great crime…
Where's that from? Their tweet is simply "there is no overspend"
Where’s that from? Their tweet is simply “there is no overspend”
From various trusted journalists.
What level is the W series though, in terms of car performance? Because if it’s lower than other classes, then shouldn’t the route be through those?
Roughly equivalent to F3 in car performance terms.
No one really knows in terms of driving standards as they are very difficult to benchmark until some of them get into bigger categories.
F2, IndyLights, DTM would be an obvious step up for Chadwick, and would give us an indication of how good she really is.
For all we know she could be Hamilton level in a field of LeClercs or just a Latifi racing a bunch of Mazapins just now, but she definitely deserves an F2 drive at least. Surely there must be some sponsor would take her on for the publicity she would bring?
andrewh
For all we know she could be Hamilton level in a field of LeClercs or just a Latifi racing a bunch of Mazapins just now, but she definitely deserves an F2 drive at least. Surely there must be some sponsor would take her on for the publicity she would bring?
Do Williams not have an idea of how fast she is? I think she has been doing simulator work with them for a while, which must give some indicator of how she compares?
Lot of sources claiming an overspend of 1 to 2 Million, it cost 1.8m to rebuild Maxs car after silverstone , then the race after bottas took out half a Dozen Cars including Max, ,thats 2m out thier Budjet. ok other teams had Crashes but none had to rebuild a Car from scratch, so could be there was no performance gain overall . And they Just done a damn good Job. Who knows maybe we will never get the true answer.
RedBull are apparently claiming the overspend was on catering and sick pay, so no great crime…
That’s a lot of sick pay and many trays of sandwiches
Chadwick did an Indy Lights test back in Sept...
https://racingnews365.com/chadwick-pleasantly-surprised-by-indylights-car-after-test
mav12
Lot of sources claiming an overspend of 1 to 2 Million, it cost 1.8m to rebuild Maxs car after silverstone , then the race after bottas took out half a Dozen Cars including Max, ,thats 2m out thier Budjet. ok other teams had Crashes but none had to rebuild a Car from scratch, so could be there was no performance gain overall .
Eh? This argument makes no sense to me.
They have a budget. If they have to spend money re-building a car (as Horner would probably say, "hey, these things happen in racing") they have less money to spend on development of the car.
Over-spending means they can negate (some of) the additional costs, by dipping into money that they "didn't have" to further develop the car.
It's unfortunate that incidents throughout the year meant that repair costs ate into the budget but at the end of the day, that's the luck of the draw. It's not like they didn't have the benefit of good luck at other points in the season.
Other teams like Williams & Haas seemed to be constantly re-building broken cars, so it's not exactly a unique situation.
RedBull are apparently claiming the overspend was on catering and sick pay
So now we know who MartynS works for now https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/employee-sickness/
RedBull are apparently claiming the overspend was on catering and sick pay, so no great crime…
Martin Brundle reported it. I should add that the "no great crime" is Red Bull's or Martin Brundle's words not mine
Eh? This argument makes no sense to me.
Me neither. If some can blame the overspend on a subsidised canteen then surely after rebuilding the car (not even half way through the year!) a responsible CFO would say "sorry folks we need to spend more on the car so no more cheap lunches". In the current climate many people are living on a limited budget and if they have an unexpected bill then they are forced to cut corners elsewhere to make ends meet, so with all the tech available to them an F1 team should be able to do the same.
It sounds like this is a bit like doing your taxes. Money is allocated to either running the team or development/build/test costs that are then in scope of the cap.
So it looks like RB have been unable to provide receipts. For sick pay, the payroll should provide that? So if no receipts, can't see an appeal achieving anything.
less than 5% so a ‘minor breach’ in the rules
The word minor is in the rule book to distinguish it from "major" breaches not because they think it's less consequential, but it's not a massive obvious fraud of "There appears to be an entire room full of employees who're not on the books" sort of crime. So the breach could still attract some substantial fines or points removal
Under 5% is still up to £7M. Benotti suggesting at the weekend that that sort of cash on car development brings you perhaps as as much as 1/2 a second a lap.
perhaps as as much as 1/2 a second a lap.
Which over 2 years = 1 second, pretty much how much faster Max is than his nearest rival. Makes you think…
So it looks like RB have been unable to provide receipts. For sick pay, the payroll should provide that? So if no receipts, can’t see an appeal achieving anything.
I don't think it's quite that, I think they are disputing the interpretation of some regulations. Red Bull haven't tried to hide anything, they are claiming that what they did was legal. Something like this was bound to happen, teams will always be looking for interpretations of regulations that give them some benefit. What we have now is a test case that will determine whether Red Bull's interpretation was reasonable or not. If it is, everyone will be doing the same thing next year.
We don't know how much the sum in question is. All we know is that it's less than 7 million. Best to wait until we know how much it is before speculating about lap time gains.
1.7 to 1.8m apparently
1.7 to 1.8m apparently
Sauce?
Brundle again....could be made up
Brundle said he has heard that Red Bull have gone around $1.8m over the cap,
Do Red Bull use the same auditing company as Trump? 🤣🤣🤣
Can't wait to hear David Coulthards view on this...
Can’t wait to hear David Coulthards view on this
Should be too hard to figure out he'll be quite neutral about it. He is a RBR and RB brand ambassador so I'd guess there is a caveat somewhere in his contracts.
This Tweet from Alex Brundle hit the nail on the head - from now on we’re going to have the ‘who’s not played ball’ 10 month wait every season now…
https://twitter.com/alexbrundle/status/1579762436110168064?s=12&t=KA-s9uuRIqHXvd00kONPcA
…so no season will ever really be finalised at the final race. Sad state of affairs.
