Just add 20kg to the car for every million they go over-budget - sorted. 36kg will trump $1.8 million every time.
I don’t think it’s quite that, I think they are disputing the interpretation of some regulations.
Agreed. Like the sick pay for R&D staff not being included as part of the capped part of the budget, because they're not actually working or something like that. Not sure what the hospitality bit is all about though.
it can all be explained
https://twitter.com/the_lollipopman/status/1579866435295539201
Classic trolling by Rich Energy
https://formula1news.co.uk/cashgate-rich-energy-congratulate-lewis-hamilton-on-winning-2021-title/
Zak Brown has written to the FIA with an interesting proposal - Fine with a reduction in budget cap for the current year, and a reduction in R & D.
That could be painful.
I think Pato O'Ward enjoyed his run in Senna's McLaren!...
https://the-race.com/formula-1/what-a-frickin-beast-owards-adventure-in-sennas-mclaren/
https://twitter.com/PatricioOWard/status/1581793489406173184
https://www.youtube.com/embed/jQY4mhdmrEw
Have we all mentally checked out of this season then!? 🤣🤣
Seems FIA are offering an 'accepted breach' cover up and Red Bull are digging their heels in.
Maybe the FIA will set the "Maximum" spend at £X million and then the "Acceptable" Breach at £Y million, the "Hang on a mo.." breach at £Z million and the "You are taking the p155 now" breach at £KKK million with sanctions varying from a harsh comment in the newspaper to some serious frowns and right up to an all expenses trip for the FIA to wherever they want to discuss the matter in detail over cocktails?
An Accepted Breach Agreement would mean that redbull have to admit that they did something wrong, which would be a major U turn on everything Horner has said to date. And he's a fighter, not a quitter.
Its a bit like accepting a speeding fine and paying the fixed penalty rather than going to court - if they don't go for the ABA then it opens up a much wider range of penalties. For example an ABA means no points loss and no change to future cost caps, but if they go head to head with the FIA then those options are back in play.
Forget all that, it's boring and hardly anyone outside the UK actually GAS anyway.
Now that Max has his second well deserved WC, who will take second this season? Will it be a battle between Perez and LeClerc, or could Russell sneak in and grab it? Or will Carlos Sainz suddenly discover some of the driving talent his father had, and prove he's not just their cos he's someone's son?
Unlike son of Jos?
Forget all that, it’s boring and hardly anyone outside the UK actually GAS anyway.
Have you been on Twitter at all! 🙂
Forget all that, it’s boring and hardly anyone outside the UK actually GAS anyway.
The other teams seem to be extremely angry about it, all the others were under the cost cap. If the FIA don't handle this carefully, the other teams will take it as licence to breach the cost cap, which will mean the cost cap will become meaningless, which will mean that manufacturer backed super-teams will dominate and the small teams will struggle to survive. Red Bull fans obviously don't GAS, but fans of any of the other teams do.
Unlike son of Jos?
He's there on merit though. He is much better than his dad ever was. Mick Schumacher hasn't proved to be much cop either.
His 'merit' is now two tainted WC's as well as being a sport sportsman.
But I'm sure you are right. No one outside the UK cares that RB have cheated their way to another championship.
His ‘merit’ is now two tainted WC’s as well as being a sport sportsman.
But I’m sure you are right. No one outside the UK cares that RB have cheated their way to another championship.
Lol! Want some vinegar with all that salt?
Now; this weekend's racing. Anyone want to discuss that?
Apart from a couple [cough]Latifi/Stroll[/cough] all F1 drivers are there on merit.
Anyway, enough of that - have you all watched that Pato O'Ward video!!
Just shows what we're missing with modern F1 cars.
Now; this weekend’s racing. Anyone want to discuss that?
Im paying no more attention to the cheats and spending my time watching everyone else for some car racing. That’s as far as my interest goes unless something is done with RB to level the playing field in 2024 and I might get interested again*
*In will be interested in Mercedes 2024 redesign.
A more detailed look at the overspend from a respected journo...
https://racingnews365.com/red-bulls-f1-cost-cap-breach-was-in-four-main-areas
...the R&D tax rebate is a weird one. Why should a sport be able to claim tax rebates for R&D work that is primarily to make a car go faster? I presume they've all done this not just Red Bull.
I've seen those figures bandied around before. First off there was a trial run last year and I expect catering, garden leave, sickness etc needed to be included in everyone's 2020 submissions as well. So let's call that a smoke screen.
Second, other teams will have similar costs and still managed their budgets within the cost cap.
Third, if you've overspent by 2M on developing parts (not saying this has happened, innocent until proven guilty and all that) and are found to be over the cost cap you're not going to admit that. No, you'll find a bunch of other slightly debatable costs that combine to give an "excusable" overspend that offsets the competitive overspend.
I really hope the FIA give full transparency on what has happened and how they reached whatever conclusion they come to.
Anyhow, Austin - really hard to see past another demonstration drive from max. It seems merc are bringing their final upgrade of the year but I think the gap is too big for them to fight for a normal win, so that leaves ferrari who somehow need to keep their Saturday pace on Sunday and not mess up the strategy. Midfield is more interesting with an improving alpine needing to start out scoring a waning mclaren.
I really hope the FIA give full transparency
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Apart from a couple [cough]Latifi/Stroll[/cough] all F1 drivers are there on merit.
Lance Stroll is actually a decent driver. Yes, he has a wealthy father who paid his way, but pretty much all the drivers got there because they convinced someone to put serious money towards their careers. Latifi shouldn't be there, but Stroll, Tsunoda, and Zhou, all seem to be reasonable drivers, despite basically being pay drivers.
Im paying no more attention to the cheats and spending my time watching everyone else for some car racing. That’s as far as my interest goes unless something is done with RB to level the playing field in 2024 and I might get interested again*
*In will be interested in Mercedes 2024 redesign.
K thanx bye. See you in 2024.
…the R&D tax rebate is a weird one. Why should a sport be able to claim tax rebates for R&D work that is primarily to make a car go faster?
Great, so the cost cap compliance (or otherwise) now rests on HMRC making a decision to apply, or not, a tax credit. What a FIA farce...
It also raises the question - do teams outside of the UK get tax rebates on R&D work!?
It also raises the question – do teams outside of the UK get tax rebates on R&D work!?
And that is obviously open to abuse. Any tinpot regime could offer 100% tax rebates to attract F1 teams to their country (and following on from that article, could provide free catering to the whole workforce 😉 )
I can't help but feel RB/Horner think there's sufficient interpretation of the rules that they still think they can "prove" their innocence, otherwise they'd have accepted the ABA. If that's the case then every other team who interpreted them differently might need to have their budgets changed retrospectively, perhaps allowing them to spend more for 2023-4 as a result.
Now; this weekend’s racing. Anyone want to discuss that?
Frankly, there isn't anything interesting to discuss now, except the politics...I'll watch the C4 highlights but will probably drift off to sleep or be browsing on my phone.
Just shows what we’re missing with modern F1 cars.
I actually got a bit emotional watching that, sounds stupid and probably is but i did. For years in my opinion its been downforce thats made F1 .... rubbish but at least theyve tried to address it this year. I remember when they tried to make "better racing" in the late 90s and I was speaking to my friends about it and we all said they need to cut aero and keep or add mechanical grip and then they decided on grooved tyres. it was around about then I stopped watching as much. Im sure ive mentioned before in this or even last years thread the only races I go out of my way to watch now are Spa and Susuka as id rather watch GT3 and WEC races.
The only interest this weekend is the rookies in FP1 - some promising talent…
They’ve not really addressed downforce, they’ve only addressed the turbulent air issue. The problem is you can’t unlearn all the downforce know-how gained over the years.
Weight and size is the thing for me now, they just look cumbersome.
Why should a sport be able to claim tax rebates for R&D work that is primarily to make a car go faster?
The same reason any business can claim tax rebates for R&D that improves their product. Randomly, R&D has spin-off benefits that benefit society. How much fuel has been saved in road cars, over the years, because F1 drove the development of more efficient engines? I don't know, but I expect it's significant. Probably some the carbon fibre tech that's used in bikes was developed in F1.
I remember when they tried to make “better racing” in the late 90s and I was speaking to my friends about it and we all said they need to cut aero and keep or add mechanical grip
It was ever thus.
From the Racefans article:
Red Bull are believed to have expected a rebate from HMRC, but this did not materialise, adding the $1.4 million to the budget for the year.
So....is this a failure of the RB accounting dept to apply for the rebate early enough (or chase up HMRC timeously)? And the had to ask Dieter to pony up the difference last year?
Or have RB been selected for a random audit by HMRC and they are withholding this amount (which may yet get paid and screw up the following year's budget?)
Presumably other UK teams would be eligible for similar rebates, yet they haven't fallen foul of this??
(I am not an accountant!)
And yes, @configuration, this subject is probably more interesting than what happens on the track 😃
the-muffin-man
They’ve not really addressed downforce, they’ve only addressed the turbulent air issue. The problem is you can’t unlearn all the downforce know-how gained over the years.
Can someone who understands aero more than me (i.e. anyone) explain why they cannot put a limit on downforce, rather than adding contrived regulations around wings, dirty air, DRS, etc.?
Cars currently have a minimum weight limit of 798kg. Is it not possible to mount a weighbridge in a wind tunnel and say, for example, that the weight (not mass) @200kph cannot exceed 1000kg? If this is technically possible, then it would very effectively limit the downforce available. The static weight minimum would have to be retained, obviously.
This would have lots of benefits. The aerodynamicists would still be in demand, but this time it would be to reduce drag for a given downforce, striving for higher straight line speeds. And as cornering speeds would be lower (less downforce) the braking distances would be increased, leading to more overtaking opportunities, and a greater reward for drivers' craft. And F1 could still be promoted as the pinnacle of automotive envelope-pushing as drag is far more relevant in the real world than downforce. Higher top speeds give greater willy-waggling credentials, and as anyone who's followed Formula F will testify, the racing will be way more fun.
This is a massive over-simplification and I'm sure there's lots of technical challenges, but surely nothing the engineering might of F1 couldn't overcome if it wanted to?
TL:DR - Low drag = clean air and longer braking zones = more overtaking and closer racing. Time to stop fannying around with the causes of drag and just deal with the actual issue.
Randomly, R&D has spin-off benefits that benefit society. How much fuel has been saved in road cars, over the years, because F1 drove the development of more efficient engines? I don’t know, but I expect it’s significant. Probably some the carbon fibre tech that’s used in bikes was developed in F1.
Providing entertainment is a benefit to society. The technology benefits of motor racing are massively exaggerated, little of the technology is relevant to road cars. I think you'll find most of the technological advances come from aerospace developments and are then adopted by F1. The main research focus of F1 is on aerodynamics, but that has no relevance to road cars.
Can someone who understands aero more than me (i.e. anyone) explain why they cannot put a limit on downforce, rather than adding contrived regulations around wings, dirty air, DRS, etc.?
It would be just as contrived. F1 cars don't run a static amount of downforce, it's adjusted for each circuit. At fast circuits, they use skinny wings for high top speed, at slow circuits, they use huge wings for maximum downforce. Downforce increases by speed, so you'd need to specify the speed (and ride height, tyre pressures, etc.) that the target downforce was generated at. Aero development would then focus on the drag reduction side of the downforce/drag equation - teams would aim for the target downforce, but at the lowest drag level. The most efficient (i.e. lowest drag) car would then have a higher top speed and greater downforce at the end of straights, so it would be able to brake later and would generate more heat in the tyres for qualifying warm-up laps.
I think it would be much simpler to just limit front and wings to a single element and have two or three regulated profiles (i.e. a low-drag, a high-downforce, and a medium downforce profile). Problem is, teams don't want to limit downforce so it'll never happen.
and we all said they need to cut aero and keep or add mechanical grip
Teams don't want it. Won't happen.
edit: Overtaking might be exciting for spectators, but the teams want to build a fast car that fires off into the distance and is never seen again.
F1 fans seem to have become football fans in the last few years.
How long before we have organised gangs fighting in pubs outside circuits?
How long before we have organised gangs fighting in pubs outside circuits?
We already have that with the current Red Bull supporters.
RIP Dietrich Materschitz (as weirdly predicted up thread...).
It's being reported that the FIA and RB have agreed a punishment but the announcement is delayed "out of respect"
What the hell was that rendition of the national anthem😂
…murdered it - straight to death row!! 🤣💀
No fly past? You can normally tell how much Americans value an event by the cost of the firepower that they chuck over at the start!
