Don't think this will be the end of it. Think Merc will try and chase this through court and then FIA might end up with a hefty compensation bill to Merc or overturning the results if they did win.
FIA ruined what should have been a great final race to one of the best seasons in a long time.
Seeing as they were making up the rules as they went along, why didn't they suspend the no DRS rule for 2 laps after the safety car. Would have at least given Lewis a fighting chance and made for an even greater spectacle (as Lewis makes that overtake stick, and then Max takes him out on the last corner....
"Let them race" as everybody keeps saying.....
The f1 tweeting makes the whole mess look even worse, just pretending that **** up never happened.
So, in summary the F1 rulebook effectively states ‘The rules apply until the race director decides they don’t’.
Amazing.
Well, the sports headline writers will be busy tonight!
I think appealing was the right thing to do to highlight the double standards / making the rules up as they go kind of thing even if there was almost no chance of it succeeding. F1 needs a new Race Director - the irony is that in trying to give everyone a spectacle and a race, they basically fixed the result.
BBC page has a poll on it now, right decision [to reject the appeal] or wrong decision.
Wrong is on >15,000 votes compared to about 3500 for right.
Where's Toto? Can we have a comment please
Where’s Toto?
...he's trying to find a handy-man to fill in the punch holes in the stewards room walls! 🙂
The alleged underfueling of perez is interesting - had Lattifi not binned racing shadows, could Perez have conked out just at the right point to trigger the SC? 😂
Borrowed from elsewhere
All of these new F1 fans are going to be bitterly disappointed when the first race of next season has no overtakes at all, as is the usual tradition
Made me chuckle
I think somebody posted this before, but I didn't twig:
WWF
F1 is now just like American wrestling, the spectacle is more important than the sport.
The alleged underfueling of perez is interesting – had Lattifi not binned racing shadows, could Perez have conked out just at the right point to trigger the SC?
No more ridiculous than asking your driver to crash to force an SC. But that would nev… oh, wait.
Not watched F1 in years, in fact last time I watched a fast pit stop was 7 seconds or so.
Watched first corner and thought well that’s a bit daft, Hamilton would have been in the crash barrier back in the day.
Went out with the dog for a walk and watched the last 20 minutes and the keys make it up as we go along
Did absolutely nothing to make me want to watch F1 again, and I think they have shut themselves in the foot with all the hype before and such a shambles at the end.
Do less people watch F1 these days?
Nice to see Lewis with his Dad at the end, obviously telling his son to not seek revenge or saying anything daft, respect to Lewis for keeping his cool
F1 is now just like American wrestling, the spectacle is more important than the sport.
That’s WWE, the quote was about panda racing
And that cost Piquet his F1 career.
Mercedes are appealing the decision according to Sky Sports News
If I was Mercedes I'd now release something like this "as an f1 team we race within the regulations. Whilst we feel that regulations weren't correctly applied today, for the good of F1 we're going to accept the result...but Masi should resign"
yep agree with above.. Toto et al are really grasping at straws and looking as unsporting as Red Bull
Some one tweet this to Toto please
Shame for Max as well I think. All but the most one eyed F1 followers know that he’s not really the winner of that race.
To suggest 48.13 overrides 48.12 in this case is drivel.
Wonder what algorithm the teams will use to factor random rule changes into their pit strategies next year.
I believe there is already a strategic tool for predicting such events
If Perez had got third, and Botas dropped down a place, how would that have affected the contructors?
I think the *only* way for F1 / FIA to come out of this in any half decent light would be to acknowledge that the rules were not applied fairly / consistently / in the spirit of the sport on this occasion and announce that MV and LH will be joint champions.
That's not going to happen now of course but this will just rumble on and on.
If Perez had got third, and Botas dropped down a place, how would that have affected the contructors?
Wouldn’t. Merc only needed a 2nd place to secure it, regardless of red bulls finishing position.
All but the most one eyed F1 followers know that he’s not really the winner of that race.
But if it was any other race than a title decider* it’d be a case of “shit happens”
*and if not for the bizarre no unlapping call flip/flop
In the days when Balestre was head of FISA we all knew that he was a dictator, made up new rules on the spur of the moment and favoured Prost over Senna. That was OK because the whole sport was pretty amateur in those days and a successful season was one where no one died.
But we were supposed to have moved on from that. It's supposed to be professional and the financial stakes are too high to just bodge it through.
If F1 can't be bothered to apply the rules fairly then I can't be bothered with F1 anymore.
But if it was any other race than a title decider
It would have finished behind the safety car
It wasn't just the flip/flop of the call, but that it wasn't applied to all the lapped drivers, just the ones between Hamilton and Max, and that the safety car then pulled in straight away rather than a lap after.
It stinks to high hell.
I find it hard to see anyway that f1 can defend this if it goes to an external body like CAS. By fudging the in race call, then doing the same for the appeal they are just leaving themselves open for further humiliation.
It would have finished behind the safety car
And red bull would’ve said they were disappointed they didn’t get one last roll of the dice, but rules is rules.
As it is, they’ve created a shitstorm.
Well said. You either have rules and stand by them or you don't. If you don't know the rules then you are incompetent, and if you do know them but choose to selective bend them to favour one party then you lack integrity. Either way, this stinks.
Not sure it was a factor in the stewards decision, which seems to be based on them ruling that 48.13 overrides 48.12, but one of Red Bull’s arguments was that “any” lapped drivers doesn’t mean “all” lapped drivers.
Which is about as logical as arguing that “any driver who has been disqualified from driving can’t drive” doesn’t mean that “all drivers who have been disqualified from driving can’t drive”.
I wonder if they rejected the appeal, so that they could have the responsibility taken away from them for changing the result, knowing that CAS would overturn it.
Yep
I don’t think there was a flip flop - he wasn’t prepared to sanction the unlapping whilst recovery work was underway, but then permitted unlapping when the track was clear. As for permitting only some to unlap, that’s a whole different question.
Someone in Mercedes might want to ask LH for his opinion on making an appeal. After all, Mercedes have the constructor’s title so they are potentially going further sour the mood by pursuing an appeal. LH looked quite calm and accepting of the situation - if he came out and said words to the effect of “enough is enough” he might just find his stock elevated to sainthood
The FIA: it gives you wins!
I don’t think there was a flip flop
There was a radio message to Horner clearly stating that the race would be restarted without the unlapping taking place.
I would have though there could be a few race positions further down the field also affected by having lapped cars now between them and the next position as well, they weren't afforded the opportunity that max was
I don’t think there was a flip flop
The was a message, to everyone, that said no cars could unlap (as per the rules), followed by a message saying only the cars between LH and MV could.
I don’t think the FIA will sack Massi as it adds to Mercs case, but I think he’ll leave for personal reasons.
I don’t know if Merc will take it to court, whereas I feel Redbull would have.
they’ve gone for the headline grabbing sensational end and in the process forgot about the rules and the sport
Twodogs
Full MemberIt would have finished behind the safety car
not convinced in modern F1. 1 lap sprint finish is great for viewing figures
1 lap sprint finish is great for viewing figures
Not if all the viewers then think you've ****ed it up!
🙂
brilliant
Some folk are forgetting the purpose of professional sport, which is to get the sponsor’s logo in front of as many people as possible and keep it there.
I think they’ve done an excellent job. Even the folk who are outraged keep saying either Red Bull or Mercedes.
Pity Bernd didn’t “get confused” and stay out because he was waiting for all the lapped cars to go past him first. Like he’s done every other time for the last 20/21 years.
Pie in the sky obviously, but imagine if Max reflects on this between now and the awards ceremony, and gets up on the stage and refuses to accept the WDC under these circumstances, then Lewis does the same, they shake hands and walk off. Balls in your court FIA 😀
That would shake things up a bit.
So, having read the relevant articles in the regs, I cannot for the life of me see anything in there that states, implies, or even leaves room for interpretation that 48.13 overrides 48.12. The latter permits the clerk of the course to leave the SC out longer than the lap after the last lapped car passes the leader, but makes no provision for bringing it in sooner.
Nor does it make any sense whatsoever to interpret “any cars” in 48.12 as anything other than “all cars”.
As far as I can see the FIA look like an absolute shambles. It’s a bit like going back to the time when they were widely perceived as batting for Ferrari.
Agreed Bez.
Max deserves the championship. He’s had more wins, more poles and finished 1st or 2nd in all bar three races. Baku with a tyre failure whilst he was leading, Hungary taken out by Bottas and silverstone fighting for the lead and taken out by Hamilton.
It’s the first championship Hamilton has actually had to fight for since he was beaten in 2016 and he’s now lost to a better driver who was arguably in the slower car.
Max deserves the championship for sure. Many would be of the opinion that both he and Lewis would have deserved it had either won. The audience deserves better from the sport. And Masi deserves a P45.
PS you forgot Max’s DNF for parking on Lewis’s head 😉
'...was beaten in 2016 and he’s now lost to a better driver who was arguably in the slower car"
I am pretty sure the red bull chief mechanic said in an interview today that he thought that on balance the RB was the slightly faster car over the season. But I may have misheard.
PS you forgot Max’s DNF for parking on Lewis’s head 😉
And half points at Spa.
And half points at Spa.
Max finished first, so that would be included in the “finished first and second in all but [four] races”.
So this ends up in CAS. They nullify the result. That takes us back to the end of the last race, Verstappen wins WDC, Merc wins Constructors. Masi goes as a consequence, and off we go 2022. Right?
Right?
Carlos wins!? :hehe:
So this ends up in CAS. They nullify the result. That takes us back to the end of the last race, Verstappen wins WDC, Merc wins Constructors. Masi goes as a consequence, and off we go 2022. Right?
I think this is something Merc need to make clear - "we don't want to change the result of the WDC, we want to ensure that this kind of farce can never happen again"
The only remotely similar situation I can think of is when Schumacher took his penalty on the last lap by not driving over the line but stopping in his box then going round again, exploiting a gap in the rules. For that they took the result from the previous lap, added the equivalent time penalty on the Schumacher's time and called it at that.
So for this one they should count back a lap to when the Safety Car pulled in and that should be the result, the same as if the procedures had been followed. The downside to that is that Red Bull will claim they have been robbed of a title for Max and Hamilton won't sit easy knowing that he broke the record due to a post-race change. The FIA and Massi have completely screwed this up no matter what happens. If the results don't change then it undermines Max's first championship, if the results do change then it reawakens the whole issue of stewards and courtrooms deciding the result, not racing.
I don't particularly like the idea of Max being champion this year but if he won that race fairly then I'd accept it, to win it under these circumstances I'm really not happy but it's not the fault of the drivers or teams, they played with what they were dealt. The fault lies squarely with Massi and the FIA for not only getting it wrong today but also all of the previous contentious decisions over the season. They need to sort this all out legally very fast as the longer it goes on the more damage it does to the sport.
Thing is burner,
At the end of last season, when asked to comment on Hamilton's 7th win Norris said he didn't think anything about it because like you, he thought it was all about the car.
I'm sure Russell thought the same when got the drive with Lewis off with covid.
I think that this season, both of them have had their eyes opened to just how good Hamilton actually is. Some people are still blind to it though.
Whatever, this will always be remembered as a stolen championship and the moral victory Lewis's. I think that's what probably hurts some people the most. Whenever Schumacher and Lewis's seven victories are compared, the number seven and a half will come into the conversation at some point.
I'm a Lewis fan and I'm not even angry.
I’m not sure it’s worth committing to watching a whole season of racing, when the final outcome is decided arbitrarily.
Interesting conspiracy on Kravitz’ notebook, redbull deliberately underfueled Perez so he would be that bit quicker if he had to hold up Hamilton, so he wouldn’t just breeze past. Would explain why Perez was so confused as to why they retired him…
I can't believe they would under-fuel him, what if you needed him to be fast at the end?
I assume they planned to let him go longer on his tires, hoping he’d leapfrog Hamilton in the first round of stops, as he did.
RB will have conceded they probably weren’t going to win the WCC, so SP was probably expendable, and be of more benefit there, than at the end.
Here's the thing. If Masi's primary concern was making sure the race wasn't completed under a safety car, why wasn't the race red flagged?
I think it’s mildly amusing that the people on here sneering earlier at Horner for whinging “it’s not fair” are the very ones throwing their teddies the furthest out of the pram.
Reluctantjumper
So for this one they should….
Except in your Schumacher example that was a team finding a gap in the rules to try and win. Whereas today Red Bull didn’t doing anything even slightly wrong (or close to the limit) and the mess was entirely by the FIAs own hand
I think it’s mildly amusing that the people on here sneering earlier at Horner for whinging “it’s not fair” are the very ones throwing their teddies the furthest out of the pram.
Horner didn't do anything wrong.
Except in your Schumacher example that was a team finding a gap in the rules to try and win. Whereas today Red Bull didn’t doing anything even slightly wrong (or close to the limit) and the mess was entirely by the FIAs own hand
That's why I started with:
The only remotely similar situation I can think of...
The current scenario is so far removed from anything that's happened before it's unfathomable. Another one that might come close us Fisichella's win in Brazil that was originally attributed to Raikonnen, that result was reversed at the next race but then the stakes there were far lower than today.
Paddy Power are paying out on both Max and Lewis wins.
Do gambling companies often do that?
Not a gambler myself and certainly wouldn't put money on f1.
I think it’s mildly amusing that the people on here sneering earlier at Horner for whinging “it’s not fair” are the very ones throwing their teddies the furthest out of the pram.
We've had a fairly controversial season with neither side being blameless, for example I think LH was mostly at fault at Silverstone, MV mostly at fault at Monza. MV played dirty in Brazil and the stewards let him get away with it, FWIW I think LH should have given the place back on lap 1 here.
More to the point we had some decent racing here, both teams playing almost nicely (Checo properly hard but not overstepping it, big kudos to him) but then the FIA appear right at the end and make a right royal ****up of the whole thing, neither team to blame there but Massi's head has to roll. We have to have rules applied consistently and to the letter, no ifs no buts, no whinging by or negotiations with any team, the RD should be saying this is what the rules say and that is what's going to happen, end of. They should not, under any circumstances, be making up rules on the hoof.
LH was robbed today but not by MV, we can't begrudge him his win.
Agreed
So, hypothetically, if Lewis had had to give the place back on lap 1, and assuming the rest of the race played out identically, Mercedes would be the ones with the opportunity for two free pits stops...
Also...I wonder how Lewis now feels about how good a team mate Bottas has been. VB was nowhere today when he should have been within a few seconds of Max to scupper any Red Bull pit stop plans,
Lets hope GR proves to be a worthy team mate!
So, having read the relevant articles in the regs, I cannot for the life of me see anything in there that states, implies, or even leaves room for interpretation that 48.13 overrides 48.12. The latter permits the clerk of the course to leave the SC out longer than the lap after the last lapped car passes the leader, but makes no provision for bringing it in sooner.
Nor does it make any sense whatsoever to interpret “any cars” in 48.12 as anything other than “all cars”.
The protest decision explains this though - 48.13 states that the safety car goes in at the end of *this current* lap and the decision can’t be changed, so over rules 48.12 that says about the following lap. 48.12 also says it only applies after the message “all lapped cars to overtake” is issued (which it wasn’t).
I can’t see anything in the rules which says that they can’t decide to get lapped cars out of the way to save them from interfering in the race result. It was pretty much clear that none of the other drivers wanted to get in the way of the championship fight.
At the end of the day, Max still had to pass Lewis who left the door wide open and could’ve made it far more difficult. It was still a fight for most of the lap. Red bull threw the dice, took chances and came up double six. Sometimes happens in F1.
Fairest result would be to do it as a lap before, but to ask Lewis to drop behind Max to make up for the dodgy overtake on lap 1, or give a 5s penalty. Surely couldn’t be any complaints 😂 But I think the stewards got it spot on.
PS - completely not on for Toto to be calling for the safety car to not be deployed.
PPS - I see George Russell has already turned into a Merc lapdog...
I’m doubtful it’ll get overturned, and not sure it should either - because then you have to go back through every dodgy decision all season and look at a hundred what ifs, but I do think it’s important that Mercedes challenge it as much as they can so the FIA are forced into doing something. This whole season has been marred by Masi’s weakness under pressure, too many times to count and both for and against various teams. Culminating in yesterdays shambles. I’m glad that in the end the most controversial incident is not really Mercedes vs Red Bull, in so far as neither Max or Horner or Lewis or Toto are culpable for it. Masi must go and lots of regs need massively clarifying if not changing. Maybe it’ll take Mercedes pushing this protest to do that?
Here’s the thing. If Masi’s primary concern was making sure the race wasn’t completed under a safety car, why wasn’t the race red flagged?
He didn't think that far ahead and it wasn't until Karen Horner got on the radio that he realised 'The Show' was going to suffer, hence the snap decisions and changes in quick succession. So when people say:
Horner didn’t do anything wrong.
while he was within the rules to moan at Massi his actions most probably triggered the series of events that quickly made the whole weekend a pointless farce. But then F1 is headline news this morning so, as Bernie was happy to do regularly, dragging the sport through the gutter into the off-season is considered good for keeping the sport in the public mind.
I wonder if this will trigger any significant changes. Petrol is on the way out. One or two big teams or big drivers moving to formula E could be the death F1. Lewis has been talking about green issues, maybe this will make him actually do something. If I was boss of Formula E I'd be shouting about how my sport was "cleaner" 😉
The whining to the RD definitely needs to stop, I can understand Toto’s dismay on the last lap, but the earlier one about the SC was not on.
I wonder if this will trigger any significant changes. Petrol is on the way out.
F1 is already moving to a "sustainable fuel" thought TBH I've not explored the detail of that. FE is fine as a proving ground for electric drivetrain technology but until teams are designing and building their own cars it's a long long way from F1 as an engineering challenge.
Anyhow changes I'd like to see, most of which are covered above :
- A new race director
- A clear set of regulations, down to the detail of how to determine who has what rights in a corner
- One way comms from RD to teams, perhaps with a simple channel for teams to ask for incidents to be looked at, eg a template - Please review incident between cars X, Y and Z at/after/before turn N on lap A
- An apology from the FIA that they screwed up the biggest F1 race for years
FWIW FIA election is in a few days time and there will be a new president. That gives them the perfect opportunity to say "Our top category of motorsport is tarnished, let's fix it".
No pitstops under safety car would have stopped yesterday being a farce.
No pitstops under safety car would have stopped yesterday being a farce.
That's always been pushed back on safety grounds eg if there has been a tyre failure and others are out on similar age tyres, or if someone has run over a load of carbon fibre debris after a crash. There could be an alternative - no stops until cars are formed up behind SC, then one lap where all teams may pit but rejoin in the same order as they were.
I do think it’s important that Mercedes challenge it as much as they can so the FIA are forced into doing something.
Yep, I completely agree. I think they need to take a look at the racing regulations in detail and update them to remove as much ambiguity as possible. Is there any reason for actually having a safety car anyway? Why not just red flag it and give the teams a choice of not making any changes to the car and restarting with track position or working on the car and being shuffled to the back for the restart? It's not like driving around behind the safety car is interesting at all and the races have a time limit anyway, so just ticking off laps to say that the race has been completed doesn't really achieve anything.
If it had been any other race, it would've just finished under the safety car. The stewards acceded to RBs request for a single lap of racing knowing full well that they had all the advantages.