FWIW I don't believe there's any great conspiracy to make Merc lose (well, possibly the aero changes between last year and this 😁), I think it's just incompetent and inconsistent stewarding, and an inexperienced and weak race director.
Did anyone else catch Jenson's dig at Rosberg? Rosberg was commenting on Honda always quitting when they just get to the front. Button quickly replied "well you quit when you won!" 🤣
I’m almost afraid to look at the F1Tech forum: I think it might have exploded after the last few laps
Jack Nicolls on BBC makes an interesting point that by allowing only some lapped cars to overtake the SC, they theoretically disadvantaged the cars that weren’t allowed to
Indeed. We’ll never know if Max would have been able to make that overtake if Sainz had been allowed to be right behind him and attack.
I also agree it’s incompetence, not conspiracy.
Interesting conspiracy on Kravitz’ notebook, redbull deliberately underfueled Perez so he would be that bit quicker if he had to hold up Hamilton, so he wouldn’t just breeze past. Would explain why Perez was so confused as to why they retired him…
LH had enough race pace in the first half of the race even if they had made Lewis give up the place to max he would not have been able to hold off Hamilton.
DRS and a more stable tyre compound meant Lewis would have reeled max in and overtaken on track using drs and a squirt of electric.
Redbull rolled the dice and were relying on a full safety car to close up the pack. Which happened.
Then the clerk of the course, as soon as he declared "no un lapping" merc knew it was a Hamilton win.
Not enough laps to either. -
Allow the unlapped feild through when safe, plus 1 lap to let the safety car in
Leave the 5 lapped in running order in between lewis and max, who were racing each other for points, making it almost impossible for max to clear those quickly and catch Lewis who would have been away and up the road
I think its the fact that merc ran both scenarios and were very confident, then the clerk of the course moved the goal posts
Can the stewards do what they do in the magistrates court and basically say 'this is above our paygrade' and refer it straight to CAS?
Fro Jennie Gow:
The teams went into a meeting with the race director.
I can tell you that Mercedes took a barrister with them.
The head honchos from both race teams appeared before the stewards.
They then came out, Christian Horner looked at me, winked, broke into a little smile and carried on walking.
Then I heard they have just adjourned the meeting and will reconvene in eight minutes.
@thegreatape - interesting and valid point. FIA have got a massive cluster**** to deal with
I grew up watching F1, Mansell, Senna, Prost etc
Yes, it was all so much cleaner then with Senna cheating when it suited him, and crying like a baby when he got served the same tactics and Mansell boring everyone to tears moaning about how awful everyone to him was and Prost making sure than that nasty Senna can't play in his team or not wanting to drive in the rain....
We’ll never know if Max would have been able to make that overtake if Sainz had been allowed to be right behind him and attack.
That’s a very strong point that hadn’t previously occurred to me.
Apparently according to our Craig the feeling among the journos is that mistakes have been made by the RD.
RB PR machine saying 'it's not fair, Merc have their QC with them'. Well that's RB's problem; 'what piece?'. 'This ****ing piece' basically.
I don’t know for certain whether there were cars in between Sainz and Verstappen at the restart, but it was the first thing that sprang to mind when Twodogs highlighted Jack Nicholls comment.
Interesting conspiracy on Kravitz’ notebook, redbull deliberately underfueled Perez so he would be that bit quicker if he had to hold up Hamilton, so he wouldn’t just breeze past. Would explain why Perez was so confused as to why they retired him…
Ooo,that's an interesting thought! Nothing illegal about it, I guess,but shows how committed they are.
Yes, it was all so much cleaner then with Senna cheating when it suited him, and crying like a baby when he got served the same tactics
Kinda the other way round - Prost did a shit takeout in '89 and not only got away with it but had the title handed to him, which is why we then had Suzuka '90. Thank Balestre.
Nothing illegal about it,
Really? Even as a deliberate tactic to give a unfair advantage to a team-mate?
Hopefully the scrutineers will pick it up, and if it turns out Perez had no chance of finishing, it can be added to the list of outlawed dirty tricks.
The cars that were allowed to unlap themselves, where were they on track when the safety car pulled in?
Not where they should have been id wager, couldn't see as the cameras were all on the front of the rave, naturally.
Really? Even as a deliberate tactic to give a unfair advantage to a team-mate?
Dunno, but I don't think so, not specifically? Maybe there's something broader about fielding a car unable to complete the race?
Massi has been shocking this year. He hasn’t had control and the teams know it and used this to their advantage. Alonso summed it up when he was surprised that certain manoeuvres were now legal. The lack of definition has been farcical.
Sadly it means whoever is crowned champion, it will always be soured. I can’t see Massi being in place next year.
Kinda the other way round
Mleh, who cares it was 30 years ago, the point was that anyone who thinks it was some sort of golden era in F1 when it was clean and everyone followed the rules fairly and that somehow only now it's got to the dogs, clearly wasn't paying that much attention
Mleh, who cares...
You posted, I replied. 🙂 But fair enough - I don't know if there ever HAS been a golden era, just bits we each prefer.
I seem to recall when the T-Mobile doping scandal broke, Germany lost complete interest in cycling. The sponsors pulled out and it went off TV.
I wonder, how well received it will be in Germany. I get the feeling that fairness and following the rules is a bit more important there.
Just watching the C4 highlights...even DC said "they're making the rules up as they go along"
I dont think dukevduvet actually said it was cleaner or a golden era tbf. Just that, that is when they watched it.
Just a complete sh*tshow to the end of the season , if I was Lewis and the result is overturned i wouldn’t even want the Championships due to the incompetence of the FIA , no one is going to look back at this and go wow what a cracking and fairly fought race and the right guy won
Anyone reading anything into Lewis's "we'll see about next year" comment? Just a throwaway comment under interview pressure?
fairly fought
Tbh I think today's race was fairly fought....between the drivers. Shame the race director screwed it up so badly.
I’d read that as I’m going to come out all guns blazing to try and win the championship early as possible
As expected the protest about overtaking under sc has been rejected
Overtaking protest rejected...
Does anyone know why Perez retired?
Interesting conspiracy on Kravitz’ notebook, redbull deliberately underfueled Perez
Nothing illegal about it,
Really? Even as a deliberate tactic to give a unfair advantage to a team-mate? Hopefully the scrutineers will pick it up
I may be wrong but I don't think retired cars are subject to scrutineering.
Whichever way the decision goes, it’s ruined F1 for me. What an utterly crap way to end a season like that. Masi must go. They need a strong hand that applies the rules and does not bend and make “deals”. It’s the rules, they don’t bend, that is that. Other sports seem to run ok. The ball was either out or in, it can’t be changed.
Sometimes a match is a 0-0 draw in the rain. It happens. Not every race can be a classic.
Very disappointed with the whole thing.
Anyway I think the issue here is the same as any other high level sport. It's no longer controlled by the "nominal" governing body, there are too many other vested interests.
Will Mercedes go to CAS?
Sometimes a match is a 0-0 draw in the rain. It happens. Not every race can be a classic.
Nice analogy; you're 2-0 up with 5 mins left. The other team score but it was just offside......
But we've decided to let it stand because it'll make the last 5 mins exciting, and we just want to see exciting finishes.
Damage has been done now , don’t think anyone cares now about the result other than Max/Hamilton fans and the teams 🤷♂️
"Anyone reading anything into Lewis’s “we’ll see about next year” comment? Just a throwaway comment under interview pressure?"
I noticed that and my gut feeling in the moment was that he'll retire.
@Piemonster - correct. No doubt that this season has been dramatic and worth watching. As to the ending let's see what happens now.
@nickc had me chuckling there with your recap of the past especially Mansell moaning!
Jack Nicolls on BBC makes an interesting point that by allowing only some lapped cars to overtake the SC, they theoretically disadvantaged the cars that weren’t allowed to
Is a very good point.
Yes Inkster I thought the same.
I'd got so sick of the hype decided not to watch the race, then its been relativley warm and had to work on the van so caught the fist lap, the 20th then didnt get back in until i'd finsihed by which time the race had ended.
By the sounds of it glad i didnt waste the day light watching it to only fall apart at the last minute.
This afternoon has made me realise how much the races just take out of your day and to be honest after this season i think i'm done with trying to catch every race. Will catch a few key races, the most interesting thing for me is the engineering behind it, so F1 technical at the stat of testing will get some traffic.
Had he won today I thought he would have stayed on. And having won 8 he would have been prepared to work on a more equal basis with Russell.
Sometimes a match is a 0-0 draw in the rain. It happens. Not every race can be a classic.
Sometimes it rains in Spa, but rather than abandon they ran the ‘race’ anyway. Max got 5 extra points over Lewis there.
I don't begrudge Max winning a WDC with a well executed overtake, but the race director's effort to spice up the final lap and to prevent lapped cars from overtaking wasn't the manner in which I'd hoped to see the title settled.
It's done and dusted, I daresay that Mercedes' protests would be even more unpopular in the extremely unlikely event that they manage to overturn the race result.
And having won 8 he would have been prepared to work on a more equal basis with Russell.
I think you’re right, and that would have been/be great to see.
overtaking under yellow rejected. That would have been a very easy fact based way to admit they got the other decision wrong without admitting it.
FIA just tweeted out Max as world champion
Just watched the highlights, 2 cars (ric and leclerc I think?) between max and sainz at the restart.
I think the stewards will kick the can down the road and say "yes the rules weren't followed but we can't change the result....appeal it"
Yeah, I suspect they will now try and protect themselves.
Up until the ruling just now on the passing under SC I would have bet that MV would get a 5 second penalty for that but the stewards would relook into LH earlier move and apply a retrospective 5 second penalty for that too.
The more I think about it, I’ve actually changed my mind and think Mercedes are right to challenge this.
1) If it was the other way round, RB 100% would (and rightly so).
2) Teams make strategy decisions on the basis of the regulations. Chucking the regulations out part way through a race is not acceptable, and that’s essentially what Masi has done.
Imagine if Max had dived in for those softs under the SC, and halfway down the pit lane Masi decided it was no longer allowed to change tyres under the SC. More extreme but the same principle.
looks like an announcement shortly with Merc and Rb told together.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/formula1/54911288
They HAD to protest - not sure anyone comes out of this looking good, but there's no way the last race can be this badly mismanaged and either team just go "meh - that's racing."
Rejected...
Merc out first….RB stayed behind protesting the decision?
Anyone for joint WDCs?
Teams make strategy decisions on the basis of the regulations. Chucking the regulations out part way through a race is not acceptable
It’s simply that.
Merc would have banked on the regulation procedure, which is what we normally see unless overtaking is deemed unsafe (which surely wasn’t the case here).
Not only did the race director fail, it seems, to follow the procedure once (five of) the lapped cars were released, but he also chose not to release the cars behind Max.
That’s a clear and huge advantage to Max: free pit stop, fresh tyres, no-one on his tail, and Mercedes and Hamilton having no strategic option to defend.
It was as guaranteed a race win for Verstappen as ensuing under SC would have been for Hamilton. The difference is that ending under SC would have been an unexciting conclusion by the book, whereas this was a box office finish achieved by way of dubious intervention.
max is the grande champignon
Will Merc appeal?
I don't understand how a sport which applies the rules where an 0.2mm increase at one end of the rear wing DRS slot disqualifies someone from qualifying but then changes the rules on the fly to make a spectacle.
I've seen this before....playing games with my 4 year old daughter where the rules of the game are changed to suit if she was losing 🙂
Challenges rejected, result stands (unless they go to the sport arbitration court i guess)
F1 just died a little. This is going to go through the courts all winter.
Such a sad way to end a bloody good season, dubious moves and decisions aside.
Masi must go.
I actually hope that Mercedes "be the bigger man" here, and Lewis comes out and says "we're not going to appeal"
Tbh I think today’s race was fairly fought….between the drivers. Shame the race director screwed it up so badly.
This really. Obviously Max didn’t watch the Vettel-Button clip as expected but otherwise the driving was all good, highlight probably being Perez giving Hamilton all kinds of trouble (even if ultimately that led to nothing)
What I haven’t seen yet (not had a chance to read much) is why that call to not let lapped traffic through was made? Merc and RB seemed to be expecting that they would be, possibly race direction expecting to finish behind the safety car? In which case bonkers that they weren’t able to judge properly and if it was such a close call they should’ve just made the call and stuck with it. Think everyone would’ve been reasonably satisfied with the way things ran in that case
Massi is definitely on a shoogly peg for next season. DC made a fair point that the team bosses hounding race control needs knocked on the head right away. 4 buttons for pre-set responses would definitely be preferable
Oh what a surprise. The FIA investigate themselves and find they did nothing wrong.
So Hamilton was 12 seconds up on max with 6 laps to go, another car crashes and max is allowed to Nip into the pits, change tyres comeback right behind Lewis then breeze past him for the win.
That's the bit that I find strange.
One thing, for sure, that needs to be fixed is to ban changing tyres under the safety car...all the other post-race bullshit which happened today would have been irrelevant if Max hadn't been able to switch to new tyres...
The official stewards really does nothing to clarify. Yes rule 48.12 want followed but once the RD says the safety is ending that's what happens.
Ah well. Max did nothing wrong (for once), its the FIA that look a complete shambles. Biggest GP in years and they just cooked it right up!
I wonder what kind of detail will go into the rejection of the appeal. I expect obfuscation rather than reasoning.
As I suspected, essentially they said that what happens under the safety car is up to the race director
It will end at the court of arbitration in sport. Seldom has a sporting event promised so much and then gone onto to disappoint.
Had the circumstances been reversed, I’d have felt exactly the same. Recall the lead was 12 seconds, no slower on older tyres and one team able to do anything they wanted with nothing to loose.
Imagine nullifying the breakaway in Paris Roubaix and then telling the leader you have to let half the air out of your tyres before you enter the velodrome.
The reasons for the decision will make interesting reading.
Wonder what algorithm the teams will use to factor random rule changes into their pit strategies next year.
So Hamilton was 12 seconds up on max with 6 laps to go, another car crashes and max is allowed to Nip into the pits, change tyres comeback right behind Lewis then breeze past him for the win.
That’s the bit that I find strange.
I think thats how racing works in F1 nowadays.
Finally a F1 result.
If RB did underfuel Perez togive him a chance agaist Hamilton , then maybe that was the reason for the urgent 'retire the car now' message
Didnt want to run the risk of him running out of fuel at an inoportune place, bringing out a VSC or full safety and potentialy gifting Hamilton a 'free' or less costly pit stop depending on where he was on track when the VSC was initiated .
Hence run the car down to the last litre , then retire the car.
Massi is definitely on a shoogly peg for next season.
I would be surprised if he was allowed to organise a stag do after this cock up.
Imagine nullifying the breakaway in Paris Roubaix and then telling the leader you have to let half the air out of your tyres before you enter the velodrome.
or sit up and wait for the pack to catch you up before starting the last lap.?