VW is keen to enter F1
Yet they haven't, despite years and years of speculation. $250 per year isn't a big deal from the marketing budget from a company that size, the problem is that almost nobody buys a car based on F1 performances. Porsche already have a successful sportscar program that is much cheaper than F1. VW itself makes it's money by selling high-quality commuter shitboxes, I don't see how F1 has any marketing value for that. Seriously, does anyone buy a Honda or Renault because of their F1 engines? All the mainstream stuff is moving towards electric vehicles, hard to see how entering F1 has any marketing value.
"Race on a Sunday, Sell on a Monday"
There is probably still some relevance to this in motorsport but not necessarily F1. Single seater prototypes built with the most exotic power units on the planet don't really translate well to the show room floor. Ferrari could probably claim a bit a overlap but I'd struggle to think of anything else.
The budget cap might tempt a few other manufacturers to have a sniff around but I can't see anymore getting involved not as F1 manufacturers anyway, someone else might follow the Alfa or Aston model.
“
Race on a SundaySponsor a popular sport with the right demographic such as golf, tennis, football, yacht racing, etc. that is a fraction of the cost of F1, Sell on a Monday”
FTFY
Yet they haven’t, despite years and years of speculation. $250 per year isn’t a big deal from the marketing budget from a company that size, the problem is that almost nobody buys a car based on F1 performances.
Quite. However, both Porsche and Audi are working with established constructors on the 2025 engine regs. We've been here before of course, but it seems that the VW Group are serious.
Representatives from Porsche in FIA Engine working group with Renault, Ferrari & AMG.
Porsche already have a successful sportscar program that is much cheaper than F1.
As stakeholders in discussions for upcoming engine regs, Porsche/Audi are ideally placed for 2025.
Don't forget that back in the late 1980s/early 1990s the engine regs for sports cars and F1 were closely aligned, Peugeot took the basis of their Le Mans engine to F1 with McLaren and well...didn't do quite as well as expected.
does anyone buy a Honda or Renault because of their F1 engines
Clio Williams? Ok, didn't have an F1 engine but the association is there
Single seater prototypes built with the most exotic power units on the planet don’t really translate well to the show room floor. Ferrari could probably claim a bit a overlap but I’d struggle to think of anything else.
McLaren?
.
I didn't think the budget cap applied to engine development though, just what the teams paid for their engines? Or have I missed something?
PJM1974
Free Member
Don’t forget that back in the late 1980s/early 1990s the engine regs for sports cars and F1 were closely aligned, Peugeot took the basis of their Le Mans engine to F1 with McLaren and well…didn’t do quite as well as expected.
That was Group C being torpedoed by Bernie though. Taking engine regs that still weren't that reliable over 90mins and asking them to do between 3-24hrs was perfect to make the sports car series implode
This popped up on my youtube feed today, found it quite interesting, it really was a different world back then.
Thats weird as I watched that a couple of days back and youre right how times have changed!
That's a cracking film. It's around that time I first started watching F1 and those are still some of my favourite cars. Admittedly though, reliability has come on a bit. As has safety.
Sadly it was only a couple of years later that my hero Jim Clark was killed which took the shine of things a bit and my attention switched to rallying.
times have changed!
They sure have.
So Toto is saying Merc will use team orders, Bottas is saying he's going to race to win. What could go wrong there?
The obvious strategy if Bottas is cooperative would be to let Hamilton through on the first lap and then try to back Verstappen up into the McLarens while Hamilton cruises off out front. Except Bottas is behind Norris on points so he's not going to want to make things easier for Norris. Would be fun to see Ricciardo try one of his late braking passes on Verstappen though. Again, what could possibly go wrong there?
So Toto is saying Merc will use team orders, Bottas is saying he’s going to race to win. What could go wrong there?
Well, there you go. Bottas feeling a little less of the Mercedes shackles now is letting himself off the leash. There’s various articles about how badly he’s been treated at Mercedes appearing, and one wonders whether when in front of Lewis he’ll make anything easy. Yet, Lewis has the tow.
Anyone wondering how Max suddenly found 0.4-0.7 tenths or even why RB were that far down at all?
Probably wouldn't work anyway as Bottas doesn't have a great track record of being very effective in those sort of roles. To be fair to him, the times he has been asked to back the race leader up his tyres have been past their best but even so, the last two or three occasions when he was being asked / expected to do that he has more or less caved in at the first time of asking. Not sure Hamilton would want it either.
Much as I like Bottas, he doesn't have that mysterious "x factor" that distinguishes the truly great racers from the very good. Which will be partly why, despite being in the best car for the past 5 seasons he has still only managed to win 9 races. During which time Hamilton has won 44.
Bottas doesn’t have a great track record of being very effective in those sort of roles
It did occur to me that his purple-purple-purple lap yesterday was a middle finger to Mercedes at a point he should have been keeping the gap to Lewis for Lewis benefit.
I found it interesting to see the difference between the new vs old parts though.
Anyone wondering how Max suddenly found 0.4-0.7 tenths or even why RB were that far down at all?
Red Bull sacrificed Perez to give Verstappen a tow. On pure speed, I think the McLarens are probably quicker over one lap. My guess is that the two Mercs will cruise away out front and it will be Verstappen versus two McLarens for third place. The main race will be interesting because there may be two McLarens versus one Merc and one Red Bull, so McLaren will have a strategy advantage with two cars.
Verstappen may well just have to settle for 5th (in both races). Wouldn’t e a surprise to anyone either, there’s only so much you can do at a track like that if you’re out-gunned down the straights
Verstappen may well just have to settle for 5th (in both races).
Bottas is being relegated to the back of the grid for the race because Merc changed his power unit. There's a decent chance that tomorrow will see Hamilton, Norris, and Ricciardo on the podium with Verstappen fourth.
Both RB drivers are in the last of their engines before grid penalties. On a track where you probably can’t win, it makes sense to go for reliable settings and points rather than turning up the wick and going for the win and risk it letting go.
Both RB drivers are in the last of their engines before grid penalties.
Perez took a new engine at the last race. Max is still on an older engine. The speculation is he will probably take a new one in Russia because that's expected to be another track that favours Merc and it will give him a fresh engine when they get back to Red Bull friendly tracks.
Both RB drivers are in the last of their engines before grid penalties
Hamilton's in the same position as Verstappen isn't he? He might also change in Russia on the basis he might stand a better chance of moving further up to the points than Max.
I don't think Hamilton's situation is as bad. He still has two engines left, he ran the other one to its full mileage. I think that means they are still on their planned schedule, but rumours are they are thinking of taking one more fresh one as a precaution. I think that would put Verstappen on very old engines by the final races, with Hamilton on fairly fresh engines.
Here's the stats on pu component usage so far
https://www.f1-fansite.com/2021-f1-season/2021-used-f1-power-unit-elements/
I'm not aware of anywhere that tracks mileage per component but that'd be a proper chance to geek out if it's available. Interesting that Alpine are using more exhausts than others - looking for more performance? (sorry, more reliability... Honest)
Well, colour me surprised, VW must be serious after all. I can't see the other teams agreeing to this unless VW have made a pretty solid commitment to joining. Ditching the MGU-H and going to twin-turbo would mean the current ICEs would need to be scrapped and everyone starts from scratch. This would eliminate any problems Red Bull would have with Honda IP.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/f1-to-drop-mgu-h-setting-up-likely-red-bull-volkswagen-tie-up/
Well, colour me surprised, VW must be serious after all.
I know, right.
VW is keen to enter F1 and had originally planned to use it’s successful V4 engine as the basis of an F1 power unit, minus the MGU-H for 2025. Red Bull is also said to be keen to drop the MGU-H…
Apparently VW have said the delay to 26 isn't for engineering reasons, its so their lawyers have enough time to make a full list of stuff that Horner isn't allowed to moan about in public.
Apparently VW have said the delay to 26 isn’t for engineering reasons, its so their lawyers have enough time to make a full list of stuff that Horner isn’t allowed to moan about in public.
I had a chuckle at that!
VW is keen to enter F1 and had originally planned to use it’s successful V4 engine as the basis of an F1 power unit,
I think the bit in the rules about being required to run a V6 with specified bore and stroke might have made that tricky. On top of that, trying to adapt an existing engine for a different set of rules just won't work. They have to start with a clean-sheet design or they will always be behind the teams that do.
If they do drop the H it’ll mean they need to deal with turbo lag, and given that it’s already mostly an economy drive they can’t do it all popping-and-snorting like WRC do it.
Will be interesting to see how they do it.
Personally I think the H is fascinating it I get that it doesn’t add to “the show”.
But then the whole sprint race qualifying adds sod all and they’re pushing that sorry excuse pretty hard. Reverse grids will be next.
Will be great to see Verstappen and Ricciardo battling it out on the first lap. Ricciardo much less to lose than Verstappen, with Norris and Hamilton ready to pounce.
If they do drop the H it’ll mean they need to deal with turbo lag
I assume that's the reason for twin turbos. They'll be smaller and less laggy. Not needing to recover energy for the MGU-H will mean a much smaller impeller. I guess they will just use the electric motor to give some punch out of corners along with the usual anti-lag tricks.
Less standardisation please, it’s meant to be a constructors’ series not a drivers series.
They should relax the engine rules for a bit, let creativity rule, and relax the maximum fuel flow too, but then progressively restrict the total race fuel. Perhaps fuel per race km.
So go light and simple, or heavier with loads of energy recovery, see which is faster, more efficient, which suits which track.
I might even let them run different battery payloads on different tracks.
We’d see different cars relatively better or worse on different tracks, at different points in the race, into, through and out of corners.
Oops!
oh dear
Crazy incident. I was hoping Hamilton could reverse out from under the RB!
Verstappen at fault there for me. He has zero foresight beyond the end of the next corner
****ing hell - wheel on his head there?
you can't shove a wheel up there!
😂
Scary that replay of the wheel on his head. Hamilton’s corner that for me
Bloody hell... This season is like 1995 what with the two championship contenders colliding a lot.
Fingers crossed for a famous win today - go Daniel.
This is great fun
How come everyone else can race, overtake, give enough space, yet the two best drivers in the world can't?
They both need to wind their necks in a bit.