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So, as an aside from all the "expert" comments on how the two (possibly) best racing drivers currently competing should race...........has anyone worked out the points difference permutations yet ?
If Lewis wins the next races and Max comes second - who will win overall ?
Lewis innit? (Another 75pts vs another 54 for Max)
The interesting thing is if they end up equal...I think it goes to race wins then.
It's possible to come up with a permutation where they go into the last race on equal points
The fastest lap points make it slightly more complicated, but, disregarding those, if Hamilton wins the next two with Max second, they will be equal on points and wins. That would basically make the final race the decider. Going to brand new circuits is going to make things interesting.
Its going to be the best season I can remember then. Two unknown races and that tight on points. I bet Bottas and Perez will be employed as rolling road blocks then.
Its going to be the best season I can remember then.
Yes, I can't remember a better season and I've been following F1 since Piquet and Mansell were teammates.
Two unknown races and that tight on points. I bet Bottas and Perez will be employed as rolling road blocks then.
Will be interesting to see if Gasly and Tsunoda run strategies designed to help Max and hinder Hamilton.
If equal on points it goes to race wins, then 2nd places, then 3rd places etc.
I reckon if Max had Toto as his team boss he would have won a couple of WDC already. He seems to have a lot of people backing him up when they shouldn’t be, like some sort of weird Facebook group, whereas I reckon Toto coaches and works with people to get the best out of them. Even more so when Niki was around who I reckon was not afraid to tell the talent what for when needed!
If Toto and George get on well and maximise Georges potential it’ll be a devastating combo going forward, and I don’t think Lewis will mind at all. All depends on GR’s attitude, if he is willing to learn and take advice.
“ Yes, I can’t remember a better season and I’ve been following F1 since Piquet and Mansell were teammates.”
I’ve been watching since about 1980! Yes this year is a good one for sure, but it’ll take a lot to beat the Brawn F1 year when Button won the WDC (my word that was a nail biter as the season went on wondering if the other teams would catch up to Brawn or not) or when Lewis won the WDC by a single point gained on the last corner of the last lap of the last race in Brazil with another inspired drive(how many does he have of these?!?).
The fastest lap points make it slightly more complicated, but, disregarding those,
To be fair, we probably can disregard them, both teams are more than willing to play games with their second drivers to make sure the take away fastest lap points from their rivals.
The Constructors title is far from settled too, although if Lewis closes the gap on Max that's likely to put Mercedes further ahead
The fastest lap point probably won't come into it as Merc or RB will use Bottas/Perez to steal fastest lap from the other with a late pit stop
Sort of. What happens if in the final race there isn’t a window to the car behind, and bringing the second driver in for tyres means their teammate wins the drivers’ championship but the team loses the constructors’? I wouldn’t want to be the strategist in that scenario 🙂 (I haven’t even bothered to figure out whether that scenario is even mathematically possible) Though you’d think they’d have that discussion internally before the race so that no-one goes postal when the call is/isn’t made.
Casual observer here who's burning a NOW TV sports pass purchased for some other sports / events. It's definitely more enjoyably that I remember it and the characters introduced in Netflix doc add some colour to the mid-pack / back markers.
But oh my god do I pray that the angry Dutch boy and his Spice Dad manager lose. Which is great cos it means I actually care about the outcome.
Horner and Toto have been paired for this weeks Team Principal press conference.
You only get one feed from the car at a time, they were using the rear facing camera on Verstappens car, so had to wait to download the footage. But even then it’s take nearly 2 full days to come out…
Ah, makes sense. I wrongly assumed they could tap into any camera at any time.
Interesting how they might use the fastest lap point depending on which championship is highest value.
On Sunday Perez picked up the point because he was behind Bottas and had a free stop.
Mercedes could have closed Hamiltons gap to Verstappen by another point by slotting Bottas into 4th and covering that off, although it would cost constructors points.
(I haven’t even bothered to figure out whether that scenario is even mathematically possible)
It is, I posed the question a couple of pages back. Eg. Hamilton leading with FL, Max second, Perez third, gives Hamilton the title by one point and RB the constructors. Pitting Perez takes the point from Hamilton gifting the title to Verstappen, but drops Perez to eighth and costs RB the constructors. Would they do it? Would Merc do it with Bottas if it was other way around?
I thought the team always comes first as the prize money is dependant on the constructors championship?
If there was no chance of winning the constructors but there was a chance of winning drivers then yes I can see the teams trying some funky tactics to take points away from their rivals otherwise it'll be business as usual trying to get the team the maximum number of points.
I thought the team always comes first as the prize money is dependant on the constructors championship?
True. Probably means a lot to someone like Williams but someone like Merc or RB would the publicity and cache of a driver's title be worth more? Who knows🤷♂️
Bored on a conference call earlier and was idling through the FIA site earlier.
Looks like Max did have his rear wing changed under parc ferme.
Double post
I bet Bottas and Perez will be employed as
rolling road blocksmissiles
Probably means a lot to someone like Williams but someone like Merc or RB would the publicity and cache of a driver’s title be worth more?
That's what I was thinking. The driver's title gets more publicity. There is also quite a big connection with the winning driver and the car they were in. Sits in the history books more than who actually won the constructor's
Given his performances so far this season bottarga is more likely to help than hinder max. He doesn’t seem to have grasped the concept of keep max behind you very well so far.
Non-Facebook version
Yep very good points above. When you ask someone who won in year X? They will immediately think about the driver first and then car they drove.
RB (and to a less extent Merc) are clearly not doing it for the prize money but for marketing reasons and I think having their driver win the world champ in their car is worth more.
With that in mind I can absolutely see RB sacrificing the constructors champ for Max to win. RB also give off the impression that its Team Max, he's their "chosen one" its all about him and not the team so yeah I can totally see them using Perez just to give Max a world champ.
I’m assuming Jos has left Christian in no doubt as to the prospects for his kneecaps if he were to throw Max under the bus 😉
I think if that were to happen then the commercial future for Red Bull in the Netherlands would be along the lines of the Sun in Liverpool.
Who cares? I won.
Pretty much sums it up
Who cares? I won.
Pretty much sums it up
We'll see whether the stewards agree with that summary later - if they decide to admit the new camera footage as evidence for review and then make a decision to either allow everyone to drive like dicks when being passed or actually uphold the rules about forcing other drivers off the track.
We’ll see whether the stewards agree with that summary later
Whatever the stewards say, and for one, I hope they don't change their minds about the decision the made on race on race day; It won't change the fact that Hamilton overtook 25 cars over a race and a half to win against almost impossible odds.
No wonder he's unconcerned about one overtake
What a great way to get under Max's skin. 🙂
Lando has been quite vocal questioning why he got a penalty for pushing Perez off, when Verstappen's was much more blatant & he got away with it.
It comes back to consistency.
The argument that this was potentially for the championship so 'let them race' doesn't really wash with me. You can't say that a rule can be applied to drivers differently depending on their position in the race & likelihood of winning the championship.
I saw a rumour that Merc might be taking another engine penalty.
No idea if true, but I do wonder if they've worked out that losing 5 places on the grid is outweighed by turning the engine up to 12 & replacing it every race? Do they have an absolute limit on how many engines they can use?
I think all this talk about Versappen eventually being a multiple times world champion is a bit premature. Right now, the thought that this year might be his only chance might well be in his head…
This is a good point. Based on no evidence other than gut feel I sense that RB have gone all out for this season, almost like the opposite of Haas. With a big reg change coming up and potentially stable until 2026 with limited development if they have compromised this to give a better chance this year it could well be Verstappen's best chance. He will know this and does appear to be a wee but desperate
I hope they don’t change their minds about the decision the made on race on race day
I hope they do, even if it's just to give Max some penalty points. As Leclerc has been pointing out, if it's ok to run other drivers off the road, then everyone's going to be doing it all the time and it will be impossible to pass another car around the outside.
I hope they do, even if it’s just to give Max some penalty points
I do too, if only for being a **** when given the black and white.
Do they have an absolute limit on how many engines they can use?
Well I think Bottas is already on ICE number six. Lewis is on number 5 after Brazil.
Wolff confirmed that Hamilton is now left with two engines in his pool, but said he doesn't expect the team to have to take another penalty before the end of the year - and he says he's confident Hamilton will be able to get into the fight in Sunday's Grand Prix.
Suggests they have 7 sets of engines?
I sense that RB have gone all out for this season
I think so too but I can't see that they're going to build a dog of a car for next year though either. They know what they're doing and Max is still a very very good driver who's able to get the best from a car.
I could be totally wrong as well of course and if it doesn't suit his style, you may be spot on!
I do wonder if they’ve worked out that losing 5 places on the grid is outweighed by turning the engine up to 12 & replacing it every race?
I’d already assumed from the Brazil engine change that that’s what they were doing. They know their ICE suffers significant deterioration with age, they’ve got nearly a full season of data on that power loss as well as failures, they know there are only three races left, and they know that there’s only really one car in the field that Lewis is going to have to fight hard to pass on track, and without an engine penalty the chances are he’ll have to do that anyway. They’ll have already done all the calculations weeks ago to figure out how they can maximise those engines, taking into account the penalties and the fact that a DNF from either a blown engine or getting caught up in a midfield incident at the start will blow the championship hopes. So I’d expect to see more hard charging from P7/8 on the grid.
and if it doesn’t suit his style, you may be spot on!
There’s basically zero chance of RB building a car that isn’t designed around Max’s preferences.
How much does an ICE cost and how close are they to the budget cap?
I saw a rumour that Merc might be taking another engine penalty.
No idea if true, but I do wonder if they’ve worked out that losing 5 places on the grid is outweighed by turning the engine up to 12 & replacing it every race
Yeah, I pointed this out a couple of pages back and questioned whether the penalty was really harsh enough given that this is an option only really available to the teams with the deeper pockets.
Am I right in saying each car has three engines per season, go over the three engines and you’re into grid penalties?
But unlimited engines/grid penalties subject to cost caps?
iirc, this season at least, engine replacements are outside of the cost cap.
I'd actuallyquite like to see Merc replace the engine every round and have Hamilton on a charge up the field - it makes for an interesting race.
The shrieking from Red Bull if Merc do that and win the WCC and Hamilton wins the WDC, will be epic, hilarious, and not entirely unjustified. But hey, thems the rules.
Its possible then he might take a new engine for the Saudi race.
I can't see him gambling at Qatar though, there are a few question marks over how difficult it will be to overtake so qualifying position and no penalties might be crucial.
iirc, this season at least, engine replacements are outside of the cost cap.
Ah, in that case Scotroutes has a point.
If it does turn out to be a good idea will RB be able to do it, they must have some spare engines (I don't know hownlong it takes to make one and they may not have another six...)
We could see McLaren and Ferari getting the last few poles unless they join in and do the same.
<p lang="en" dir="ltr">"We’re still hoping that at some stage with everybody having to change their engine, we will end up on pole position!"<br><br>Guenther Steiner may have lost the will to live this season, but at least he hasn't lost his sense of humour 😄 #F1 pic.twitter.com/yTYf9h4WPT</p>— PlanetF1 (@Planet_F1) November 2, 2021
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Mercedes' request for review rejected
No idea if true, but I do wonder if they’ve worked out that losing 5 places on the grid is outweighed by turning the engine up to 12 & replacing it every race?
Strategy is strategy 🙂 . Max, he's coming for you and it doesn't seem to matter how far back he starts. No wonder the Head of Engineering strategy was on the podium on Sunday.
If you like to see overtaking in F1, then this is almost as good as a reverse grid.
Mercedes’ request for review rejected
Not surprised, and for the reasons the FIA gave
“The stewards often must make a decision quickly and on a limited set of information. At the time of the decision, the stewards felt they had sufficient information to make a decision, which subsequently broadly aligned with the immediate post-race comments of both drivers involved.
Had they felt the forward-facing camera video from [Verstappen] was crucial in order to make a decision, they would have simply place the incident under investigation - to be investigated after the race - and rendered a decision after this video was available. They saw no need to do so.
According to Tito, this was entirely expected. Playing the game as he alluded to.
“We wanted to trigger a discussion around it because probably it will be a theme in the next few races and I think that objective is achieved.
The shrieking from Red Bull if Merc do that and win the WCC and Hamilton wins the WDC, will be epic, hilarious, and not entirely unjustified. But hey, thems the rules.
Yup. Just evens things up from the favourable treatment Verstappen is getting from the authorities anyway. 🙂
The bottom of the Red Bull barrel must be nearly worn through by now!... 🙂
The bottom of the Red Bull barrel must be nearly worn through by now!
People forget that there's always another barrel under the current barrel.
People forget that there’s always another barrel under the current barrel.
I've got to say at the beginning of the season I was fairly ambivalent towards the prospect of Hamilton and Mercedes getting another championship. It's good to see another team challenging them.
But honestly after the cumulative antics of Horner, Marko and Vestappen I'm 100% Team Lewis and Toto
Horner is forgetting that the scrutineers kept hold of the Mercedes rear wing in Brazil for further examination. I'm pretty sure if it was illegal we'd have found out then.
To be honest Mercedes protesting the decision if they’d lost or if they had been adversely affected, fair enough, but protesting “robust” driving (I am assuming that’s what the FIA decision amounted to and amounts to) when you’ve won and it didn’t really affect you adversely in any way seems petty.
But hey, F1, pettiness is what it’s all about. Or motor racing. Or something.
Someone needs to run Max off in the same manner this race. "Valtteri, it's James..."
igm
Full MemberTo be honest Mercedes protesting the decision if they’d lost or if they had been adversely affected, fair enough, but protesting “robust” driving (I am assuming that’s what the FIA decision amounted to and amounts to) when you’ve won and it didn’t really affect you adversely in any way seems petty.
But hey, F1, pettiness is what it’s all about. Or motor racing. Or something.
But they were affected, Max should have had a penalty which could have made a 3 point change in the constructors had it allowed Bottas to be in front.
Also (IMHO) it sets a bad precedent. If you have a run off, you can use it to prevent an overtake without risk of a penalty.
They were protesting why it wasn't investigated during the race when very similar incidents have been investigated and penalties awarded or the incident was cleared as OK.
In Brazil the stewards had there 'whatever' head on.
For me it was just racing - forceful racing, but just racing.
iirc, this season at least, engine replacements are outside of the cost cap.
Ah, thanks for the clarification.
Listening to Horner after the press conference he’s adamant Mercedes are doing something illegal, so illegal that the scrutineers, cameras or RB can prove it.
Either RB are on to something, or they are getting desperate.........
Ps very apt username @multi21
But they were affected, Max should have had a penalty which could have made a 3 point change in the constructors had it allowed Bottas to be in front.
Disagree.
The incident, where either deliberately or in the heat of the racing moment Max failed to hit the apex ran wide and caused Hamilton to also run wide, did not prevent the overtake - delayed it yes but not meaningfully in the context of the race. Nor did the incident prevent Bottas taking 2nd. He wasn’t going to and he didn’t.
So Mercedes did not lose out from the incident in any way.
Should it have been a penalty? Dunno. That’s why qualified FIA types get to make that call not us.
And Mercedes protested the decision even though the incident had not cost them anything.
Just gamesmanship from Mercedes.
Perhaps Red Bull should have suggested that running an illegal (ok not very but still) rear wing should have excluded Hamilton from that entire weekend? There’s a case for it. He didn’t set a time in qualifying so has to rely on a practice time to get into the race as I recall - but was he using the same rear wing in practice? Probably. All times deleted - DNS for that weekend.
But they didn’t. They’re chasing other things though.
Are RB engaged in gamesmanship? Yes.
Are Mercedes engaged in gamesmanship? Yes.
Welcome to F1.
Nor did the incident prevent Bottas taking 2nd. He wasn’t going to and he didn’t.
A five second penalty for Max for such antics would have relegated him to third place. Perhaps Bottas could just take Max out at Turn 1 in the last GP? It's a team sport, after all.
Perhaps Red Bull should have suggested that running an illegal (ok not very but still) rear wing should have excluded Hamilton from that entire weekend? There’s a case for it. He didn’t set a time in qualifying so has to rely on a practice time to get into the race as I recall – but was he using the same rear wing in practice? Probably. All times deleted – DNS for that weekend.But they didn’t. They’re chasing other things though.
See my comment above - the scrutineers impounded Hamiltons rear wing!! Didn't just check it on the car, but took it off for further inspection which is not usual. How much checking did it need or did they just use it as a coffee table all weekend! 🙂
Perhaps Newey is just pissed that he's missed a trick.
And Mercedes protested the decision even though the incident had not cost them anything
The stewards have been very clear in the past (eg Max/Lewis at silverstone) that the consequences of an incident are not considered when deciding what penalty should be applied.
As for rear wings, they are throwing everything they can at it because they think it's the silver bullet that gives Merc the speed. It's obviously passed scrutineering and usually designers will run things past the FIA tech delegate to get the OK before they bolt them to the car, then it's up to another team to complain if they think the tech delegate's decision is wrong. All that normally happens is a technical directive is then issued to clarify a grey area, which usually means the team that were getting an advantage have to make a change, but as the car had passed scrutineering for previous events those results still stand.
So RB is trying to kill Merc's top speed advantage before Jeddah/Abu Dhabi, but I'm not sure they'll get any retrospective action.
It failed. That’s not in question.
They disqualified his qualifying.
So how did he end up on the grid?
The rules used to be that if your FP times were sufficient you could still start the race and he did so I assume that’s how he ended up on the grid.
But if he was using the same wing in FP then the reasonable assumption is that those times should be struck off too.
Hence full weekend DQ / DNS.
I agree they had it and they deemed it illegal. The only question is whether that gets him thrown out of one session (qualifying) or all sessions where he used it.
A five second penalty for Max for such antics would have relegated him to third place.
That’d just end up heading to court as RB will say that they turned down the wick. I reckon they’d win too, but nobody wants the championship to end up decided in court at the end of the season
that running an illegal (ok not very but still) rear wing
Point of order; the rear wing didn't fail to meet the regulations, it failed because it couldn't pass the test set out in the accompanying technical directive. I think I'm right in saying that Mercedes could've raced in Brazil with that wing if they'd chosen to.
A five second penalty for Max for such antics would have relegated him to third place. Perhaps Bottas could just take Max out at Turn 1 in the last GP? It’s a team sport, after all.
Deliberately crashing in F1? The very thought of it.
So how did he end up on the grid?
Coz them's the rules. The only way he wouldn't have been on the grid is if his practice times were way outside the 107% rule and he was deemed to be too slow and a danger.
Getting thrown to the back of the grid or made to start from the pitlane is hardly a new development.
Re the wing - it failed on one side due to the mechanism/mounting being damaged and loosening, allow that fraction of a mm excess movement. So there would be no evidence that it was like that for previous sessions - it may have been, it may not, but they can only evidence that it was like that at the end of the qualifying session.
My opinion is Red Bull have been caught napping. They had such a pace advantage at the start and middle of the season they backed off development in the expectation that most top teams would be concentrating on next years cars. I don't think they expected Mercedes to develop this years car so much.
Apart from pointing out that they’re all at it (ok in a slightly confrontational way but please accept I’m playing devils advocate a little - ain’t no angels in F1), I’ve been trying to find what RB have been saying about that Mercedes wing.
As far as I can tell:
They didn’t protest the arguably lenient penalty for the DRS that failed the test, because they think it’s a red herring (probably not even a deliberate one).
They think the Mercedes rear wing flexes.
They accept it passes the static tests.
They think there are odd marks on the end plate. They’ve called them scratches but talk about them as if they’re stress fractures in the paint/ resin finish.
I think they believe something that is stable and rigid in still air is moved or destabilised in moving air.
One of the verticals perhaps that is strong provided it stays vertical (in line with the compression force of the wing), but as airflow moves around it is moved slightly offline and losses it’s rigidity. That will happen to some extent.
Now it might not be exactly that but something like that, so put that idea in mind and listen again to the RB / Merc press conference thingy.
I suddenly hear “we know what you’re doing to make your wing move” and “so what, it passes the tests, we can do it”.
And it it passes the test of legality, it’s effectively legal.
PS - @thegreatape fair point we don’t know that the wing was like that in FP.
@the-muffin-man but if the wing was like that in FP those times should have been struck and he’d have no time inside 107%
Red Bull need to get their own wing in order - they are currently repairing Max and Sergio's wings - again!
And Red Bull are meant to be good with wings! 🙂
iirc, this season at least, engine replacements are outside of the cost cap.
As I understand it, there are two things here. Engine manufacturers are required to supply engines at a fixed price (15 million?) to customer teams. The obvious thing to do would be to make an accounting charge of the same amount against the manufacturer teams' budgets. I assume that will include engines for pre-season practice, plus 3 engines per car for the race season. Problem is, if you have a situation like Merc have now with unreliable engines, it seems commonsense that Merc should pay the costs for the replacement engines and that customer teams have the same access as the works team. But, if a driver crashes and wrecks the engine or the customer team designs the car without enough cooling and wrecks the engine, then it seems reasonable that the team should pay. I'd be amazed if the contracts didn't specify every imaginable scenario for who pays for extra engines.
As far as I know, the engine manufacturers don't have a cost cap for engine development so Merc can just build as many engines as they want outside the teams' cost cap as long as the customer teams aren't charged extra if they're forced to replace engines due to reliability problems. That unlimited budget obviously opens up ways of transferring car development costs back to the engine program. For example, you could do reliability testing of gearboxes on an engine dyno under the guise of engine development. Obviously, the teams have all thought through this stuff and the engine manufacturers will all be fighting to skew the regulations to favour their own situation
And Red Bull are meant to be good with wings! 🙂
Like it. 👍
They’re probably filing some scratches in
Red Bull need to get their own wing in order – they are currently repairing Max and Sergio’s wings – again!
Now a suspicious person might think that RB are building their wings to minimum specs to get maximum flex.
Now a suspicious person might think that RB are building their wings to minimum specs to get maximum flex.
You’ve just described every team
Now a suspicious person might think that RB are building their wings to minimum specs to get maximum flex.
What’s suspicious about that? The entire essence of F1 is to extract every ounce of performance, so if RB aren’t doing that then why not?
And Red Bull are meant to be good with wings!
“Red Bull gives you wings; Mercedes gives you better ones”?
If it does turn out to be a good idea will RB be able to do it, they must have some spare engines
Horner has said that the Honda PU has negligible falloff over its service life, so they won’t benefit from doing that—they’ll only change an engine if there’s elevated risk of a DNF. Mercedes on the other hand have an unusually high falloff, so fresh ICEs will make a real difference for them, especially if they think they can burn them faster without significantly increasing the risk of a failure.
My opinion is Red Bull have been caught napping. They had such a pace advantage at the start and middle of the season they backed off development in the expectation that most top teams would be concentrating on next years cars. I don’t think they expected Mercedes to develop this years car so much.
Which puts a different perspective on Lewis publically whinging about Mercs lack of intention to do so earlier in the season. Totally hoodwinking RB perhaps? Who knows, but the thought amuses me 😀
Just watching an interview from Horner with Sky, discussing the 'scoring' on Mercs wing. They'd just spoken to Andrew Shovlin about it and he said there wasn't any, and happy to prove it. They put that to Horner and he said that it was definitely there (since Hungary) and they they should (wait for it...) do their own research.
I'm now fully convinced there is nothing wrong with Mercs wing
I’m now fully convinced there is nothing wrong with Mercs wing
Agreed. But is it flexing unduly? Not illegally of course. No, no, no.
And if Mercedes say it fine, who are, we’ll everyone else, to judge? 😉
When was the last time anyone who told you to do your own research on something they were peddling was right?
