[Closed] Example of the over blown public sector?

I gues it depends how you justify it. The current job market coupled with the decent salary means you'd have the cream of the crop to choose from so if someone of that calibre meant the school ran so much better giving an appreciably better eductaion to 1000 children then surely it's worth it?

you don't know what the job content was or what the job involved, you're just making assumptions based on the job title
.
anyway, that's similar to pay for the PA of a CEO/ MD
doesn't seem inflated to me

Do we really think that a PA to the head teacher of a mid sized school (or any public sector school for that matter)

What's that got to do with it ? What is the average salary for a PA in London ? ........that's what counts. Otherwise, how do you expect them to get the vacancy filled ?

that is so funny have just read the above and the mrs has just come home with the london paper and is thinking of going for it the world is so small on stw

I remember when schools had secretary's and head teachers taught, seems times have changed and they now need PAs., yup, it seems inflated to me.

Do we really think that a PA to the head teacher of a mid sized school (or any public sector school for that matter) does a job that justifies a salary in the top 15% of UK salaries?

Two points, first, you can't really weigh London salaries against UK salaries, second, given that I couldn't think of a much more important institution than a school, I'm more than happy that they pay high wages to attract the highest calibre of candidates.

bakes +1

What would the PA of a CEO of a company employing more than 100 staff get paid?

I remember when schools had secretary's and head teachers taught

I've never known the head teacher of a secondary school to actually teach. What decade are you talking about ?

In my first year of 2ry school, I was taught one lesson a week by our head, in a school of 400.

It was his way of making sure he knew every child at the school, but that was the mid-60s.

Seems a lot but they will probably have to take minutes at all the mettings: governors, staff, health and safety,open evenings, suspensions, appeals, interviews etc. There are LOTS of meetings and generally they are outside the 'normal' working day and there's no overtime pay in education. You need to factor that in.

I've never known the Headteacher of school not to teach, although admittedly a token amount.

£38K would put them on more than most of the heads of departments, head of years and other middle managers of the school. Are you sure it was not a pro rata salary - most non contact staff jobs in schools are advertised as a pro rata salary to take into account the school is closed for the holidays.

It was true in the mid 70s too, in my 700 pupil secondary school. So I guess we can blame Thatcher for this too ? 😆

1: Head teachers (most of them) do teach. Ours does - just not a lot.
2: As stated, you want a good PA in London you need to pay competitively.
3: What do you think a head does? Deal with thousands of (buzz word alert) stake holders, manage a multi million budget, accountable to government, lead a team of hundreds and to be honest that is scratching the surface.

My school has "secretaries", receptionists, office managers, a site team, exams officers, numerous part time staff and these are non teaching and learning jobs. The head does a massive job and their leadership really does affect the school.

When I was at school our head used to do a lot of sitting in his office and walked his dog in the grounds.

£38K would put them on more than most of the heads of departments, head of years and other middle managers of the school. Are you sure it was not a pro rata salary - most non contact staff jobs in schools are advertised as a pro rata salary to take into account the school is closed for the holidays.

Good point - puts them on more than my middle leader head of house job. Still, in the London market I guess you're gong to get what you pay for.

I've never known the head teacher of a secondary school to actually teach. What decade are you talking about ?

1980s, and now my kids at school are taught by the head, for the same reasons as Moses said, to get to know the children and also to keep his hand in.

A few clarification points:

I think the role is in Milton Keynes not London.
The ad did provide a rough job description - it's a PA role to all intents and purposes. I am familiar with what they do and happen to think that a good one is worth their weight in gold.

A good PA working for the CEO of a medium to large company, that employs perhaps 5,000+ will earn that and be worth that. PAs to CEOs of a FTSE100 will probably earn a lot more and be worth that.

My point was that this is a small organisation, it's 1000 pupils, it's not a large massively complex orgnisation so I am questioning the complexity of the role, not the value of a good PA. Especially in these difficult times when you don't need to pay as much as you once did.

I am the first to agree with the need to have well paid employees in the education system. But think of it this way. This PA will be earning more than most teachers (starting salary for teachers is around £22k I think and it goes up by something like £1000 a year?)

Also, the ad stated that it was a full time position for a full year role. I am guessing that that means they are expected to work during holidays?

the school is in milton keynes not london

I remember when schools had secretary's

& a school nurse 😀

I went to three secondary schools, and none of the head teachers taught - that was before the 80s btw. They all had between 1000-2000 pupils. Still, according bangaio most head teachers now teach.

EDIT : In fact in one of my schools, the head of year teachers hardly did any teaching. Mind you, that school had 2000 pupils.

I was at secondary school from '84 to '91 and yes our head teacher taught us. He was brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Welsh as they come (surname Jones and a major rugby fan) but still brilliant.

Let's move the discussion on then as this is an interesting issue in itself.

Can a head teacher do a good job in that role if they are not teaching at least part of the time?

bangaio - Member
1: Head teachers (most of them) do teach. Ours does - just not a lot.
2: As stated, you want a good PA in London you need to pay competitively.
3: What do you think a head does? Deal with thousands of (buzz word alert) stake holders, manage a multi million budget, accountable to government, lead a team of hundreds and to be honest that is scratching the surface.

Spot on. Heads are essentially CEOs of multi million pound businesses these days.

geetee1972 - Member
Also, the ad stated that it was a full time position for a full year role. I am guessing that that means they are expected to work during holidays?

School support staff don't get the same holidays as teachers. Most will get four weeks.

Ernie, you mean you were not personally taught by them or as a 12 year old you were intimately familiar with their weekly routine and time table and the running of the school? I suspect the former. It's funny how most people think they are experts about all things educational because they once went to a school 😕

I am guessing that that means they are expected to work during holidays?

The holidays are for the children. All the staff will have to do loads of other working the 'holiday' period. Most teachers I know work 60 hours a week or more. All will have to bring work home. So they get more holidays than other jobs; so what? They ****ing deserve it.

Why the jealousy over what other people earn? People working in education do some of the most valuable jobs in society. I'd be happy to see them paid double, and people working in banks etc having their wages slashed substantially. They only spend it on Coke and stupid cars anyway.

It's funny how most people think they are experts about all things educational because they once went to a school

I get where you're coming from here; I get the same comment from my mother-in-law who is a teacher.

I think the reason is that all of us have had extensive (at least 12 years, sometimes 14 years) first hand experience of the education system. That does qualify us at some level (and I mean only at some level) to comment, i.e. we aren't completely ignorant of the issues and a lot of us are now or will be customers.

I've never known the Headteacher of school not to teach, although admittedly a token amount.

+1

The head-teacher at the school my wife teaches as still takes some classes and that's a massive school (one of the biggest in Scotland and including a primary, secondary and nursery).

I'd be happy to see them paid double, and people working in banks etc having their wages slashed substantially

Basic economics, where do you think they get the money from to pay the public sector It's the ****ing bankers paying their ****ing salaries! You want to screw the banks? - great, they'll reposses everyone's home. Happy with that? Want to tax them out of existence, great, that puts several million out of work and an even bigger whole in the public coffers.

Besides, I am talking about a PA, not teachers. I agree teachers should be paid better. Perhaps at the expenses of the PAs.

Gee - good point.

My retort would be that for most of us our "consumer experience" was long enough ago that it's historical rather than current. It is also rather distorted by being seen through a pair of adolescent eyes, and also often rose tinted glasses through the passage of time. My other point would be that I was a kid too and my current experience allows me to realise how befuddled my schoolboy preconceptions were so I have no reason to believe yours(well not yours per se, but those that profess great wisdom but have not stepped into a school since they were 16) are any different 😛

Being a parent is a good call though, which is why I think it's important that a teaching staff has parents and past parents in their midst to get a view from another perspective, but it is another perspective and often single-minded in its rather one sided focus on a single pupil.

Basic economics, where do you think they get the money from to pay the public sector It's the ****ing bankers paying their ****ing salaries! You want to screw the banks? - great, they'll reposses everyone's home. Happy with that? Want to tax them out of existence, great, that puts several million out of work and an even bigger whole in the public coffers.

WTF..?

So... reducing the wages of bankers will screw the economy will it? Considering the fact that teachers will then be paying more tax, surely that will even things out, no?

Tax the banks more heavily, put the money into paying Public Sector workers better wages, attract better people into education, improve the educational standards of every child in Britain, create more intelligent, more productive people, level up the playing field, reduce social inequality, make Britain a better place for ALL.

The only ones that really lose out are the super-rich. **** 'em- they won't starve. They can eat cake.

I'm not an economist, but I know this will work, as it was revealed to me in a dream. 😀

Are you going to apply for it then?

No it's in Milton Keynes. I went there once and didn't like it.

Ernie, you mean you were not personally taught by them or as a 12 year old you were intimately familiar with their weekly routine and time table and the running of the school? I suspect former. It's funny how most people think they are experts about all things educational because they once went to a school

When did I say I was an expert 'about all things educational' ffs ? I know **** all about all things educational.

I said, quote : "[i]I've never known the head teacher of a secondary school to actually teach[/i]"

And yes, by that I meant I 'was not personally taught by them'. I also meant that I wasn't aware of them teaching anyone else.

And no, I wasn't "intimately familiar with their weekly routine and time table and the running of the school". But don't you think that if they had regularly taught other pupils I might have been aware of it ? I did after all go to the schools everyday, I also "spoke" to other kids. Plus one of my schools had a massive central timetable with all the lessons, classrooms, and teachers, on display, so everyone knew what lesson was happening where and who was giving it.

However yes, heads very occasionally took lessons, specially to fill in for a teacher. Although never in my 2k pupil school, but then as I said, in that school the heads of year teachers only gave "token type" lessons.

I did after all go to the schools everyday

I work in a smallish infant school with around 250 pupils.
My head does absolutely no teaching whatsoever...she won't even cover when staff are absent for whatever reason. She will split a class between the other classes rather than do it herself.
She also pays a bursar to do the finances...this bursar is also a full-time teaching assistant...she earns about £38K!!!!!

Well I'm glad you were so popular at school that you spoke to everyone! A typical head might keep their hand in by teaching an A level English set or two - so in a school of 2000 that's about 2 or 4% of the NOR.

For the record, I never realised that my head as a sprog taught until years later I went back and had a chat with him.

Anyway, this is a petty internet forum bicker - I'm more interested in when Talkemanda is going to be made head honcho and I get my pay rise!

I'm not an economist, but I know this will work, as it was revealed to me in a dream

I think the debate is important but thanks for not letting it get too carried away!

As for the bankers, the idea that reducing bankers salary will damage the economy isn't too far fetched. It might not be quite so directly cause and effect, but it might just happen like that.

But this isn't about bankers and it's not really about teachers. It's about PAs earning more than heads of department etc.

what sot of school did you go too?

Borstal. No weekends off. 🙁

[i]but £38k would put that person into roughly the top 15% of earners in the UK[/i]

Really?? I am struggling to believe that!

Ernie,
we used to get Saturday and Sunday off, what sot of school did you go too?

One which failed to teach me how to appreciate pedantic humour.

Although it did teach me the difference between "too" and "to"

.

.

😉

Although it did teach me the difference between "too" and "to"

Touche, but you didn't notice that I had spelt sort wrong, I blame an old laptop with worn keyboard, nothing to do with being taught by the headteacher occasionally!

A PA to a CEO does more than look pretty, plus how many foreign trips, meetings and life problems (arranging car, house, cat/dog, children, bills) etc does a head teachers PA look after whilst the Head teacher is in America with suppliers etc?

In addition. Why the **** does a Head teacher need a PA? Wont a Secretary suffice.

What next, Head Teachers on double the Prime Minister salary as 'educational authorities' are classing pupil numbers as similar to 'employee numbers'? So a company employs 1,000 people- what would a PA need to be paid if this was 1,000 children?

What next? A Marketing Manager for the school when they send out spring harvest info to parents?

Autism is rife on this forum isnt it?

but you didn't notice that I had spelt sort wrong

Oh but I did. I forgave you for that.........we all drop letters occasionally.

But a grammatical mistake ? ...............dear oh dear 😐

but you didn't notice that I had [b]spelt[/b] sort wrong

Tut tut. It's 'spelded'. 🙄

My headmaster knew me. I spent a lot of time waiting outside his office.

Really?? I am struggling to believe that!

Yep it's true. Well almost. The data is a little skewed as the article below states, but the likely error from not sampling people not paying tax via PAYE is unlikey to skew the data too far.

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8151355.stm ]What is a big salary?[/url]

£32-38k would put you somewhere between the 75th percentile and the 85th percentile.

 

This smacks of a consultancy looking at structures and advising that a head master is similar to a CEO of a big (1,000 employee+) company so needs the same sort of perks etc.

The ickle difference is the 1,000 employees are employed to each bring in some sort of added value or £££ to the business. Children are consumers of a state budget allocated to the school to spend wisely and...within budget.

Wonder if this particular school has rinsed through playing fields and other assets in the past...

Wasteful ****s.

Oh but I did. I forgave you for that

Thank you, so kind 😀

Wasteful ****.

So people have no value? The education of children not as important as profit?

The education of children not as important as profit?

Totally agree. So why not be wise with your budget and spend it on the education of the children 🙄

I think that's what they are doing, Hora,

The job is in a school... 🙄

I couldnt believe it when we went to look at a primary school for our eldest. Small Church School with about 120 pupils. We were introduced to the "business manager". Now of course she wasnt really some high flying big cheese in a shiny suit, she was just a secratary, but I got the impression that Schools have to be seen to be a modern businesses these days.

I can imagine that PA to the head of a big modern scondary is quite a key role, & a good one probably is worth that salary. Right or wrong, Heads are about more than school these days.

of course its too much. The public sector is stuffed to the brim with people doing waste of space jobs and getting too much for doing it. E.G. the head of Suffolk County Council on £250,000. FFS!

Its not the teachers, road sweepers, librarians and so on, its the endless pet projects, overlapping duties, short hours and final salary pensions. I'd love to have a chance to clear them out. I'd make the Tories £6billion cuts look like chicken feed. The waste is immoral.

I'd love to have a chance to clear them out I'd make the Tories £6billion cuts look like chicken feed. The waste is immoral.

Stand for election ? 💡

........or wouldn't anyone agree with you ?

of course its too much. The public sector is stuffed to the brim with people doing waste of space jobs and getting too much for doing it.

Whereas every single job in the Private Sector is valuable and essential for the smooth running of society....

You've called yourself 'hh45'. I wouldn't entrust you with making me a bacon sarnie, far less with sorting out Public Sector overspending.

[img] [/img]

I'd consider voting for him.

There you go hh45 .......you've got your first supporter 8)

Not bad in just three minutes.

Regardless of the salary, I find it hard to believe that a head teacher can require a PA.

Fair enough they have plenty of meetings and arrangements to make - but perhaps the real problem is that the education board approval system is unnecessarily inefficient; rather than allowing schools to get on with actually teaching?

But that is the way of the public sector. There are not - and never will be - enough worthwhile jobs to keep a full population employed so the government has to find ways of fitting people in somewhere.

I understand why the pay is so high.

[i]I think the role is in Milton Keynes[/i]

hth.

There are not - and never will be - enough worthwhile jobs to keep a full population employed so the government has to find ways of fitting people in somewhere.

What a damning indictment of the private sector.

Regardless of the salary, I find it hard to believe that a head teacher can require a PA.

Then either you are somewhat hard of thinking or you have no idea what goes on in a school. Having said that I'd be peed off if I was a teacher in that school.

I'd also like to hear what a Teacher in that school would say about that pay scale. Its on-par with a qualified/experienced high School teacher isnt it?

I'm impressed that people are able to discern the appropriateness of a PA for the headmaster without knowing the organisational structure that the school employs - or is everyone here a business consultant?

I worked as the head of department in a HE college until recently - we chose to restructure our staffing and employ a PA for me so that I could spend more time teaching and developing programmes of study, rather than doing all the jobs a PA would be better qualified to do. It made much more effective use of the people and skills available to improve the educational experience for the students.

Perhaps they're looking to do the same thing.

This one's for all the consultants out there...
[img] [/img]

so that I could spend more time teaching and developing programmes of study

Headmasters now teach?

Headmasters now teach?

I think we've already covered that earlier in the thread.

The point I was trying to make was that it makes more effective use of the money spent on employing a head teacher if you allow them the time and space to think strategically about the development of the school as an effective educational experience for the pupils, rather than fritter away the resource having them carry out tasks a good PA could do better than them for less money.

I think everyone can/could get their head (no pun intended) around the idea of a head teacher having a PA; that's not the stretch. It's the amount they are being paid that is the stretch. They are after all a secretary, it's an organising role in a school and while that is an important job I would struggle to believe that it is so complex and demanding as to command a salary that high. For example, that is either on par with or more than a police sergeant makes; as has been pointed out here, more than Heads of Department make and it’s more than a nursing sister makes. All three of these roles are in the public sector and have significant managerial and leadership responsibility, not to mention the responsibility for people’s lives. These roles should be paid more than a PA based on their responsibility and job profile.

If it were in the private sector, then you can argue that it’s market driven, but it’s not (and that’s one of the big failings of the public sector IMO. There is no efficiency mechanism innate to the system) so someone somewhere has made an arbitrary decision that this is the value of the role and frankly I think it’s overblown by around 20%

Yeah, but none of your opinions are based on any knowledge of what the job entails, so how can you pass judgement on it, and say stuff like " think it’s overblown by around 20%"?

What's your job? What if I think it's overpaid, without having any idea what it is you actually do? Is that fair?

Put it into context, that PA vacancy salary is higher than some BA [s]waitresses[/s] cabin crew earn!!!

If it were in the private sector, then you can argue that it’s market driven, but it’s not (and that’s one of the big failings of the public sector IMO. There is no efficiency mechanism innate to the system)

I know, and know-of, a large number of people in not-for-profit and public sector jobs who earn more (some significantly so) than £50K a year -in the provinces, not in that London. In fact, the highest paid people I know work in the public sector...

The annual pay scale increment rises for everyone have just kept on coming over the years and various re-structuring exercises seem to create higher and higher paid managerial positions for professional meeting attendees who appear to be on a stratospheric promotion trajectory.

If anybody so much as looks at an employee the wrong way, offence is taken, 'grievances' are lodged and the unions kick up a fuss. There is no need to get out the braziers and donkey jackets though. Suspension on full-pay before reinstatement is now the way to deal with it -This is 2010, not 1976.

To add some context, the headteacher of a medium-large school could be earning £100K+

Seems very high to me, certainly more than PAs are paid where I work and we're an order of magnitude bigger than a school in terms of budgets and operational complexity (and we even have an office in MK).

And it's absolute bollocks that head teachers are like CEOs of multi-million pound businesses. They may have a multi-million pound budget but that's a far cry from dealing with trying to increase revenues, managing shareholders and providing strategic direction in a highly competitive business. Spending money is a frick of a lot easier than making it.

Hell the spend going through my team was close to 1 million last year and it's a team of 5 people, I don't have a PA and in fact I'm paid less than the top rate offered for that PA job and I'd guess I work longer hours and probably have less holiday.

I'm a business/sales consultant in the HR industry. I have had exposure to the recruitment, learning & development, assessment and general consulting industries. I know a fair bit about how businesses structure and manage their people including pay scales so I have something of an informed view on this.

As for re-evaluating my ‘worth’ well I can speak with some experience of that. The industry I work in was hit pretty damn hard by the recession. The firm I worked for went bust, I lost my job, was out for 8 months and have made it back recently with a 20% reduction in basic pay. I am not alone in the private sector with having borne the full effects of the recession. The public sector is going to be next and I can almost guarantee that this PA role, being paid £38k, is going to be a prime target because it sure as hell shouldn’t be teachers, police officers and nurses.

Why are you comparing this job to that in a 'business'??? A school is far more complex; you have children to manage, all with particular needs which must be addressed effectively and appropriately. Etc.

Ye Gods...

🙄

If you think it's such an easy, cushy job, why aren't you all applying for jobs in the Public Sector?

Schools are run to incredibly well defined practices set out by the government. In fact many teachers think it's too prescriptive thus making their role far too administrative and stifling their ability to think and act creatively and freely. I agree that there is a heavy administrative burden, but I don’t agree they are more complex because everything they have to do is laid out for them. Their challenge is a delivery one (and I agree it is a big challenge)

In a business, no one is telling you what to do, you have to figure it out on your own and you have to compete in what is often a crowded and complex market place. You’ve no way of knowing whether the decisions you make are right or wrong and if you get it wrong you’re out of a job.

If you think it's such an easy, cushy job, why aren't you all applying for jobs in the Public Sector?

Funnily enough I did apply for a front line role in the PS that would have meant a £50k drop in earnings and I would have bitten their hand off for that role. In the end there were reasons beyond my control as to why they couldn't give me the job.

Besides, we're going to loose perhaps 20% of the public sector over the next few years and I've had my fill of insecurity.

I don’t agree they are more complex because everything they have to do is laid out for them.

You've never taught in a school, have you?

Some of the responses on this thread are simply about individual jealousy and bitterness, rather than giving informed, valid opinions. None of us know exactly what this job entails, so aren't qualified to comment on the 'value' of this position.

In addition. Why the **** does a Head teacher need a PA? Wont a Secretary suffice.

Jesus Christ Hora; it IS a bloody secretaryI It's just a posh name for it, that's all! 😆

GT1972; so you earn shitloads more, and you're moaning about what someone else might get? Don't you think that's pretty bloody selfish? What is it that you do? How valuable to society are you? Come on; you're so quick to condemn others, let's see if you can defend your position.

To add some context, the headteacher of a medium-large school could be earning £100K+

Judas Priest! I thought you entered teaching as a vocation, a passionate (oi) for children.

talkemada - the money has all gone, are you in the public sector?

Well first off I pay rather a lot of tax and it looks like I am going to be paying quite a bit more as well in the future. So that's my first contribution to society.
Second, my work aims to make people's experience of work better, help them be better at their jobs, help them make better decisions about which jobs to take, where their strengths are, where their development needs are etc. In doing that I help make businesses more efficient and so they pay more tax.
I have in the past taken a lot of time outside of my working hours to help people in tough situations, mostly people in redundancy or in a role they are unhappy with. I believe strongly in giving back to society and I make a point of trying to help people wherever I can so I have given many free hours of my time in support of that. I also spent a 10 years doing voluntary work in the London Borough of Southwalk, working with disadvantaged kids teaching them Karate in my spare time before I became a parent myself.

Talkemada you're right to question me as you do and yes I haven't taught in a school before but I have had a good deal of experience with organisational development and design and my opinion is that £38k for a school PA to the head teacher is a lot when compared to other front line, managerial roles like police sergeants, nursing sisters and heads of departments in the same school.

don't have a PA and in fact I'm paid less than the top rate offered for that PA job and I'd guess I work longer hours and probably have less holiday.

You sound quite bitter. Have you thought about retraining as a PA? Apparrently the money's great and the job is so easy a 5 year old could do it 🙂

RichPenny, I'd do it however I'm not sure I could comply when the boss asks me to get up all freaky on the desk for him. 😐