[Closed] evolution/creationism

Lifer a book having bad things happening in it doens't make it bad now does it? Are journalists who document wars bad?

No but I would say a journalist glorifying the destruction of an entire people because of what they belive is bad, or a book justifying corporal punishment, I'd say that's pretty bad.

Lifer. Its love really.

deadlydarcy - Member

So it's only a theory...it's ok for me to not believe it then is it? Are there any other hypotheses postulated? I hope so. Big Bang Bollocks is just that. Bollocks.

Given your advanced knowledge of astrophysics, life the universe and everything would you care to propose any theories of your own?

alex222 - Member
Lifer. Its love really.

What?

Confused of Sussex.

My point is simple: what do the good works of atheists prove?

It proves that you don't have to be religious to do good.

Or, that you don't need to believe in God to receive his Grace....

...The Father cares for all His sons, whether they know him or not 🙂

@dk: Nah, that's flawed logic.

Why so?

Tru dat

Or, that you don't need to believe in God to receive his Grace....
...The Father cares for all His sons, whether they know him or not

No, no, dk already assured me that he didn't think atheists doing good were doing God's work without realising it.

Besides, that would contradict "free will".

Yeah yawn, I mean loads of eminent, erudite scientists lend credence to the Big Bang

First you have to accept the existence of these scientists. I've never met them, and even if I thought I had I might have been delusional at the time.

I never said I have advanced knowledge of all that scientific stuff like you clever fellows. And I certainly don't have any theories of my own. But you don't have to be a scientist to think it's all a bit suss. It sounds a bit ridiculous to say that all this shit around us was the result of something very small going bang and then all this. I suspect lots of clever people privately think the same thing but are just afraid to say it.

Perhaps something else was at work? Some higher power that we just don't understand?

GrahamS,

I like your appley argument, but I still think it's your logic that's flawed, not mine.

I could have one leg and ride a bike. That doesn't mean that all one-legged people are cyclists. But it's evidence that people with one leg can ride bikes.

The existence of one-legged men who don't ride bikes wouldn't, on the other hand, prove that people with one leg can't ride bikes. And the existence of a one-legged cyclist wouldn't even prove that all people with one leg [i]can[/i] ride bikes.

Understand now? 🙂

simonfbarnes - Member

Yeah yawn, I mean loads of eminent, erudite scientists lend credence to the Big Bang

First you have to accept the existence of these scientists. I've never met them, and even if I thought I had I might have been delusional at the time.

True. Anyway I wasn't asking you. Although do you have an alternative theory as to how our universe started? You are in fairly rarefied company there's some leviathans on here.

Or, that you don't need to believe in God to receive his Grace....
...The Father cares for all His sons, whether they know him or not
No, no, dk already assured me that he didn't think atheists doing good were doing God's work without realising it.

You're having a problem with logic this morning 🙂

hilldodger - Member

My point is simple: what do the good works of atheists prove?

It proves that you don't have to be religious to do good.

Or, that you don't need to believe in God to receive his Grace....

...The Father cares for all His sons, whether they know him or not

But only if they don't 'know' another?

Who is on the Lord's side? .... Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour ... and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. Exodus 32:26-28

The LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made. Exodus 32:25

Alex222 - When you said 'it's love really' what were you talking about?

deadlydarcy - Member

Perhaps something else was at work? Some higher power that we just don't understand?

Perhaps. I personally doubt it. I think you might be missing your own point. I think its daft to criticize the big bang if you don't know anything about the science behind it, but that's your choice. I think the question you really want to ask is what came before that? That's where the clever theologian will put a god. (I'm not saying they can still win the day but its that hardest one for us scientists to answer)

Or, that you don't need to believe in God to receive his Grace....

...The Father cares for all His sons, whether they know him or not

Even those that 'know' him aren't safe either:

Numbers 16

But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the LORD. (v.41)

Behold ... the glory of the LORD appeared.
...
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment. (v.42-45a)

And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun. (v.46)

Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred, beside them that died about the matter of Korah. (v.49)

Lifer - Member

Or, that you don't need to believe in God to receive his Grace....

...The Father cares for all His sons, whether they know him or not

Even those that 'know' him aren't safe either:

Numbers 16

But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the LORD. (v.41)

Behold ... the glory of the LORD appeared.
...
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment. (v.42-45a)

And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun. (v.46)

Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred, beside them that died about the matter of Korah. (v.49)

If you like it bloodthirsty the Old Testament is the place to go. Good quoting Lifer.

I was shocked to hear at the weekend that some schools in the North East built with funding from an evangelical car magnate now teach creationism.

Common sense alone dictates that the creation story (as told in the bible) is nonsense.

dk: sorry your cyclist argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

If the existence of a one-legged cyclist doesn't prove or disprove the existence of one-legged cyclists, two-legged cyclists, bicycles or legs then how can you cite Christian good as evidence of a Christian God?

lifer when you said ouch after my post. I just thought I'd be nice and a bit stupid.

I don't see what the Bible has to do with a perfectly good argument about logic and Big Bang Bollocks. 😉

neninja - Member
I was shocked to hear at the weekend that some schools in the North East built with funding from an evangelical car magnate now teach creationism.

Common sense alone dictates that the creation story (as told in the bible) is nonsense.

There'll be plenty more if the Tories get into power! Also check out Waldorf - Steiner schools if you think Creationism is bad

[url] http://www.waldorfcritics.org/active/concerns.html [/url]

[i]If the existence of a one-legged cyclist doesn't prove or disprove the existence of one-legged cyclists, two-legged cyclists, bicycles or legs then how can you cite Christian good as evidence of a Christian God?[/i]

I think you're confusing evidence with proof. There is no proof for what I say, but I see it as evidence. Lots of evidence but no proof. And you might read the evidence differently, and I'm cool with that, not having any interest in persuading or converting people.

Do you understand the science behind it Lifer? I watched Brian Cox's series so in fairness, I have some understanding of it - that was a very informative programme. I also have Horizon on series link and am a big fan. So I think I can justifiably question a theory which sounds as ridiculous as Big Bang Bollocks.

deadlydarcy - Member

Do you understand the science behind it Lifer? I watched Brian Cox's series so in fairness, I have some understanding of it - that was a very informative programme. I also have Horizon on series link and am a big fan. So I think I can justifiably question a theory which sounds as ridiculous as Big Bang Bollocks.

How incredibly funny, you watched a couple of tv programmes about the big bang and now you are an astrophysicist. 😆

deadlydarcy I am your new stalker, I'm going to watch everything you post just in case you come out with more comedy magic such as this. I think I might write poetry about you. Do you post on any other sites, still as deadlydarcy or what are your other user names? Please.

I also think its worth pointing out you can believe in both creationism and evolution for this very reason

Right, quote from way back... Creationism isn't the same as religion - it's the doctrine that the entire earth was created [b]as it is now[/b] by God. So it runs counter to evolution.

Seems perfectly reasonable to assume that life or indeed the universe were created by God in some form in the past. The big bang and the genesis of life are sufficiently unknown to allow for it. However it's also worth stressing that just because science doesn't know what happened at a particular point, it [b]does not[/b] mean that anything else it claims to know is invalid.

If you ask most scientists how life started, they'll say they don't really know. This is a key difference between science and creationism. Creationists claim to have all the answers, scientists do not.

Horizon 😆

Okay you win

… also, Quantum Physics, wherein something can simultaneously exist and not exist. Intuitively, this seems like bollox to me.

http://www.bcseweb.org.uk/index.php/Main/EmmanuelSchoolsFoundation2

Good article about the pressure teachers are under to teach Creationism in non-state schools.

Lifer - Member

Horizon

Okay you win

Shooting fish in a barrel.

Toys 19 aren't they trying to find that answer to what happened before the big bang in the hadron colider? The higgs Boson or the 'God Particle'. What happens when they (if they do) find that? Another question is asked and the whole thing is started up again. You can't ever find a deffinitive answer to whether god exists or not because it is faith that drives the desire to believe in him/it. All you do is push the understanding of what gods role in all of this is further away. Just like in Hitch Hickers Guide to the Galaxy. The bable fish is conclusive proof that god exists but because gor requires faith to exist he disapears in a puff of logic or something. Like someone said earlier in the post there is no evedence either way. There never will be. No matter how many small building blocks to the universe you find there will always be something else to look for. I also think the point you made is what dedly darcy was eluding to. There was a point of super dense and super hot matter then it exploded creating the universe after 1 secon hydrogen was created etc. The point is how did the super hot super dense bit of matter get there. Had it always been there just suspended floating around in nothing or did a higher power go I create this ball of super hot super dense matter and when I click my fingers (or blow my celestial whistle) you explode into the universe creating all things that exist in it and deny all things within it an inate understanding of what it is they are doing and/or why.

I think you're confusing evidence with proof. There is no proof for what I say, but I see it as evidence. Lots of evidence but no proof.

I think you are arguing semantics to avoid the logic, but okay. So when you said...

It might not make any sense, or be provable scientifically, but why should it be? For [u]proof of the existence of God[/u] (who is manifest on this Earth by love, some would say), I look to the work of religious organisations who provide all sorts of help to people who need it.

did you mean that work was "evidence" or "proof"?

And either way, how is it not questionable given that atheists perform similar work, without the benefits of God, apples or wooden legs.

alex222 - Member

Toys 19 aren't they trying to find that answer to what happened before the big bang in the hadron colider? / [b]TRUNCATED FOR BREVITY[/b] ? tle) you explode into the universe creating all things that exist in it and deny all things within it an inate understanding of what it is they are doing and/or why.

Yup fine, I agree, just one question. How did God get there?

did you mean that work was "evidence" or "proof"?

Bah! I should have said [i]evidence[/i].

… also, Quantum Physics, wherein something can simultaneously exist and not exist. Intuitively, this seems like bollox to me.

So intuitively does it make sense that an object the size of a pinhead could be heavy enough to crush you?

Or that combining flammable gases can create a liquid that is pretty good at putting out fires?

Intuition can be a terrible measure of bolloxosity, as it relies on your current knowledge as a frame of reference.

No I don't write poetry, although in teenage flushes of unrequited love, I did make some poor attempts. They were quite embarrassing to be honest. I do like William Butler Yeats though - it takes a reasonable level of intelligence to understand his poetry. You should try reading the Lake Isle of Innisfree - it's a beautiful poem about the sometimes need for solitude from our busy lives. Rich with metaphor, science would struggle to explain the beauty of Yeats' verse. I can't imagine his intellect being compressed into a single point, let alone the rest of the universe along with it. His brother was a rather fine painter too.

I don't recall claiming to be an astrophysicist. Are you one? If so, then I bow to your undoubted superior intellect. All I said was that the solar system tv series gave me a new insight into things. Also, the recent series of Horizon had lots of stuff about the universe, including one programme entitled "Is Everything We Know About The Universe Wrong?". That opened my eyes a bit I can tell you.

I used to watch Equinox too - Horizon is sort of dumbed down recently I feel, but it helps some of us to understand these complex questions.

I'm really pleased to have a stalker now. I think my deadlydarcy persona is just here though. Though, feel free to search elsewhere...maybe you already have.

I don't know. Thats my point. I'm not even saying he/it is there. I'm just pointing out that science can't prove everything it just show how much more there is to learn. Could god be the universe? Could god be the point of matter that existed before the big bang? I don't know, I'm not paid to find out I just think having an open mind is the most important thing. Saying something is the deffinative answer surely is unscientific.

GrahamS - Member

… also, Quantum Physics, wherein something can simultaneously exist and not exist. Intuitively, this seems like bollox to me.

So intuitively does it make sense that an object the size of a pinhead could be heavy enough to crush you?

Or that combining flammable gases can create a liquid that is pretty good at putting out fires?

Intuition can be a terrible measure of bolloxosity, as it relies on your current knowledge as a frame of reference.

I need lessons in composition, why can you write what I want to say in about a 10th of the number of lines. I write for a living too...

Molgrips I'm sorry I confussed religion and creationism. I did mean religion, I do accept that creatiosm as a form of fundamentalist christianity is wrong. I did mean the story of creation in the bible aka christianity.

Intuition can be a terrible measure of bolloxosity, as it relies on your current knowledge as a frame of reference.

I don't recall claiming to be an astrophysicist. Are you one?

As mentioned in my first reply to you, no.

And my laughing at Horizon was because I agree with you on the dumbing down, soon half the programme is going to be long shots of scientists walking through warehouses. I saw that same progamme about everything we know being wrong, but didn't think it was very good. The one on infinity was excellent though.

Also DK i think quantum physics is no more bs than relligion in this sense. How could god create him self as himself on earth yet somehow be his own son who doesn't know who he is and then a ghost comeback to life when he comes back to life and then talk to someone as a real person but be a ghost who is god who is his son whos is a ghost made of orange with a candle on top and a bit of red ribon around the middle?

alex222 - Member

I don't know. Thats my point. I'm not even saying he/it is there. I'm just pointing out that science can't prove everything it just show how much more there is to learn. Could god be the universe? Could god be the point of matter that existed before the big bang? I don't know, I'm not paid to find out I just think having an open mind is the most important thing. Saying something is the deffinative answer surely is unscientific.

What you say is a far cry from creationism, the bible and all that crap. Think of it another way, who first discovered God, can you imagine how? I like the atheists idea of the flying spaghetti monster (FSM), if you apply the same thinking that you have applied to god, i.e. you cannot prove he doesn't exist, then I say its not god its the FSM, or orbital chocolate teapots or any other fantasy you want. This woolly thinking has no place in our world. We can only believe in what we can observe, we can only prove that something does exist, not the other way round. So we could spend the rest of our lives postulating new hidden deities, and that to quote some of the big thinkers above, is BOLLOX

But there are many things which we observe but cannot explain. The beauty of a flower, woman's intuition, Lionel Messi, consciousness. I wish science would get on with explaining these things instead of worrying about Big Bang Bollocks.