[Closed] evolution/creationism

For proof of the existence of God (who is manifest on this Earth by love, some would say), I look to the work of religious organisations who provide all sorts of help to people who need it.

Definitely the best part of religion is its ability to organise and galvanise people who want to do good.

But please don't try to claim a monopoly on doing good: surprisingly plenty of godless atheists manage to do good too (and without the promise of a reward in a happy eternity if they do, or fear of a firey punishment if they don't).

Are you saying no wars have been caused by religion? How terribly ignorant.

OK, what I meant was that wars that are 'religious' in name are actually fought over different issues entirely ... oil / drugs / territory, whatever.

Religion is used to whip up fervour and gather support, but it's usually in some twisted form that has nothing to do with religious teachings.

War isn't preached in the Bible. Love is.

I think you'll find mr toys 19 that God gave us the choice for right and wrong when adam and eve ate from the forbidden tree (possibly before that I'm not that down with my religious scriptures). I think that it is completely nieve to say god doesn't exist because of suffering. He gave us the choice we just make the wrong ones alot (btw I don't believe in the physical manfestation of a god that can intervene in our world). Its not the bible that is bad its the people that choose to use it to control and corrupt people. Also DK you can copy it on to a word doc and take it to a t-shirt printer if you want, I might. 😆

But please don't try to claim a monopoly on doing good

I didn't mean to do that or give the impression that's what I meant.

Its not the bible that is bad its the people that choose to use it to control and corrupt people.

That's what I was getting at in my 'wars' comment! Better said than I put it though.

and indeed not only is morality not the sole preserve of the faithful, their morality is often not as pure as the secular. Homophobia? Men-only clergy? Anti-contraception? And that's even before you get to the moral failings of church administration such as the recent RC kerfuffle.

I think the point is relligion is used as a form of propaganda, to quote G.W. Bush 'we are going to conduct a crusade'.

Its not the bible that is bad

What would you define as 'bad'?

Infanticide? Genocide? Homophobia?

and indeed not only is morality not the sole preserve of the faithful, their morality is often not as pure as the secular. Homophobia? Men-only clergy? Anti-contraception? And that's even before you get to the moral failings of church administration such as the recent RC kerfuffle.

Yeah, unfortunately [i]the church[/i] doesn't always give a good account of [i]religion[/i].

alex222 - Member
I think the point is relligion is used as a form of propaganda, to quote G.W. Bush 'we are going to conduct a crusade'.

No it's a form of control.

I think religion is more often used as a form of excuse.

"We're going to f*** with the middle east. But it's OK, it's a crusade"

Yeah, but c'mon, the whole Big Bang thing. It's bollocks isn't it? It even sounds like bollocks to be honest.

god made us to choose badness ?

DK - much like Parliament doesnt give a good account of Democracy? 😉

deadlydarcy - Member
Yeah, but c'mon, the whole Big Bang thing. It's bollocks isn't it? It even sounds like bollocks to be honest.

That's settled then, your case and the way you have presented it have completely convinced me 🙄

DK - much like Parliament doesnt give a good account of Democracy?

Exactly! Don't get me started... 🙂

I didn't say god made us to do anything. I just think that the belief that everything bad that happens is conclusive evidence that god doesn't exist is pretty dumb.

> "But please don't try to claim a monopoly on doing good"
I didn't mean to do that or give the impression that's what I meant.

Perhaps not, but you claimed that you saw proof of God in the good works of Christians. Presumably you didn't see proof of an uncaring abyss in the good works of atheists?

In fact I'm sure you would reassure yourself that such people were "doing God's work" even if they didn't realise it themselves.

Both gravity and evolution are observable facts.

erm, not sure that is true, maybe a few examples of micro evolution are observable, however speciation is not, nor is it possible to observe how massive increases in species such as the Cambrian explosion occurred. Also we can only theorise at how eyes or flight or many other things evolved. So whilst evolution may be an observable fact, its still only a theory certainly as far as the vast diversity of life on earth developed. Best off not over reaching when trying to convince the unbelievers.

Alex222 - what about all the horribleness in the supposedly good book then?

There is no proof that god [b]doesn't[/b] exist.

On the other hand, there is no evidence that god [b]does[/b] exist.

For many people, god/religion forms the basis of their culture and, importantly, their social life. I suspect that for many people, questioning this religion too much could result in a big change in their outlook, and so their life, and they would prefer to maintain the status quo.

It is interesting that 'the church' in the UK is rapidly ageing (as fewer and fewer younger people are involved). How long before the number of [b]regular[/b](not once a year at Xmas Eve, for tradition) attendees falls below the minimum required to sustain all of the infrastructure?

Graham you truly are a full weigh ar$e dk has never actually said he believed in god nor that he practiced religion. He is playing the devils advocate with his argument.

Lifer, convince me then...all that shit in the sky...all those billions of stars and solar systems...one really small point...then kaboom! And now all this?

Nah.

Bollocks.

Presumably you didn't see proof of an uncaring abyss in the good works of atheists?

I don't follow the logic of that one, sorry. (Is there any?)

In fact I'm sure you would reassure yourself that such people were "doing God's work" even if they didn't realise it themselves.

Nah, I don't. So you are, although sure, wrong. 🙂

Lifer I don't really what you are asking me to prove? When you say good book what do you mean. I think the pearl is a good book. So is war of the worlds.

alex222 - Member

I think you'll find mr toys 19 that God gave us the choice for right and wrong when adam and eve ate from the forbidden tree (possibly before that I'm not that down with my religious scriptures). I think that it is completely nieve to say god doesn't exist because of suffering. He gave us the choice we just make the wrong ones alot (btw I don't believe in the physical manfestation of a god that can intervene in our world). Its not the bible that is bad its the people that choose to use it to control and corrupt people. Also DK you can copy it on to a word doc and take it to a t-shirt printer if you want, I might.

Where exactly did I say suffering exists therefore god doesn't, can't you read? Anyway the bible is full of smoting and turning into pillars of salt and plagues and floods, so it advocates violence. No book is bad, of course it's the people, they say the bible says X so I can do Y, and I'm here to say hang on that's a load of arse. I'm not for banning or making religion illegal. I do advocate a secular society, and freedom of speech. I also enjoy poking fun at people as a way of making them wake up and smell the coffee.

[serious mode] When I meet someone and they tell me they believe in a god or gods then it helps me to discern how to consider them in my interactions with them. I personally believe its an excellent indicator of a persons character, so in a way it has a value. [/serious mode]

dk has never actually said he believed in god nor that he practiced religion

… although I am a baptised Christian, and I have a Franciscan cross hanging here on my noticeboard (a wedding present from the two Franciscan nuns who married us), I do tend to keep my personal beliefs private.

So joining in here is a mixture of playing devil's advocate and sorting out my own conflicted life view 🙂

Mainly, though it's the whole Creationist thing that gets to me.

I don't mind being thought of as a bit of a Christian, but if people thought that made me a Creationist, I'd be really pissed off!

deadlydarcy - Member
Lifer, convince me then...all that shit in the sky...all those billions of stars and solar systems...one really small point...then kaboom! And now all this?

Nah.

Bollocks.

I'm not an astronomer/astrophysicist but my understanding is that measurements of distances between galaxies and their direction of travel and velocity indicates that it all started from a single point. The Big Bang theory is one theory that describes this. Would love to see your conclusive research to the contary? Perhaps you've tracked galaxy moving the other way?

So joining in here is a mixture of playing devil's advocate and sorting out my own conflicted life view

It took me a re read of your post earlier to realise what was going on as you have made a few "conflicting" statements. Then I realised you were just a p*ss taker. 😀

you have made a few "conflicting" statements.

Have I ? Which ones?

Graham you truly are a full weigh ar$e dk has never actually said he believed in god nor that he practiced religion.

Oh noes. A "full weigh ar$e"? Mercy me.

dk said, quite clearly, that he saw "proof of the existence of God" in the good work of Christian organisations.

My point is simple: what do the good works of atheists prove?

The only fair thing to do when balancing this evidence, is to say that they are evidence against God; as they are evidence that people can do good without biblical reward or damnation.

Would love to see your conclusive research to the contrary? Perhaps you've tracked a galaxy moving the other way?

Lifer, Stop my sides are aching. Too funny.

alex222 - Member
Lifer I don't really what you are asking me to prove? When you say good book what do you mean. I think the pearl is a good book. So is war of the worlds.

You said the Bible isn't bad. There's a lot of bad stuff in it. And don't be obtuse you know exactly what I meant by 'The Good Book'.

Have I ? Which ones?

Yawn, I'll just go and find some. Hang on.

First you shoot down creationists, distancing yourself from them, to my mind, by alluding to the fact that they don't believe in science.

(So if you're trying to refute Creationist beliefs, it doesn't mean you're refuting Christianity or religion as a whole. Effectively, you're just arguing with a bunch of idiots who no-one with a brain takes seriously. Why bother?)

Then you decide you don't believe in science either.

But if science can't account for this simple-seeming hole in one of its central theories, how can the rest of science be taken seriously?

Look I'm not having a go, I find your comments amusing, you have admitted you are conflicted and to me it seemed obvious by your hopping around either side of the fence. Contrasted to me : All Creationists, Christians god bothers, Religious apologists, Believers, Those with faith, Anyone who believes in any religion - has a few spokes missing. I'm a fervent atheist. You haven't decided, that's cool, I'd rather you were on a path deciding than committed to dead end that is blind faith. Please carry on.

… that's [i]Anglican[/i] Franciscans, I hasten to add.

Fair point T19. Also I have been christened into the anglican chirch never been though. Except when I was in scouts and we had to go for Easter.

The problem with religion and frankly some scientists is their level of confidence that they have "the" answer.

The reason I choose science over religion is science is prepared to change and be proven wrong, religion on the other hand is pretty intransigent or it wouldn't be religion.
Seems to me if you can't change you can't learn and grow.

My point is simple: what do the good works of atheists prove?

It proves that you don't have to be religious to do good.

The only fair thing to do when balancing this evidence, is to say that they are evidence against God; as they are evidence that people can do good without biblical reward or damnation.

Nah, that's flawed logic.

I dunno, I checked it out on Wiki too and it still sounds like bollocks. It's all cool up to the Big Bang Bollocks. How big a point? An infintesimally small one? Or a rubiks cube size? Or a football? The whole hooniverse, in one point? One single point you say? Sounds like made up shit to suit the measurements to me. And you believe it?

It's got to be bollocks.

It fits the evidence so is the best [i]theory[/i] there is at the moment (as far as I know). But keep fishing if you want you might get that big bite yet.

I don't know about that just the church that the queen is the boss of. Lifer a book having bad things happening in it doens't make it bad now does it? Are journalists who document wars bad? By your definition I would guess so. Just out of curiosity lifer do you have any published works in the big bang. Hows your research going. Discovered any black holes, or for that matter the god particle I'm guessing you've got a cup of coffee resting on that little treat and you'll bring it out when the hadron colider doesn't work.

+1 JB

Ouch

Lifer - Member
It fits the evidence so is the best theory there is at the moment (as far as I know). But keep fishing if you want you might get that big bite yet.

It proves that you don't have to be Christian to do good.

Ergo, citing the good works of Christians as evidence of God is deeply flawed logic.

If I believed that apples fall to the ground because of some mystical appley power and someone pointed out that oranges and many other fruit also fall to the ground, then would it still be reasonable for me to use the apples as evidence of a that special apple power?

Yeah yawn, I mean loads of eminent, erudite scientists lend credence to the Big Bang and yet all you can say is bollocks? Do you know any of the science? So you looked it up on wikipedia, big deal. Is that the bets you can do? Ss that equivalent to maths and physics A levels, a physics degree, a PHD and years as a research scientist? If you want an argument try at least posting on something you some knowledge about or can bullsh*it about for a bit, this effort is just lame.