[Closed] Evolution - I`m not buying it.

[b]*head in hands crying*[/b]

There are books about it, go learn, you'll be amazed!

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trailwagger - Member
Just seems a bit far fetched to me that we have ended up with however many species with such a diverse form and function from a random set of circumstances.

I am sure someone here can convince me otherwise as I am no expert in the subject. So please feel free to enlighten me.

I'm happy to let you wallow in ignorance.

What's the less far-fetched explanation?

I don't suppose Earth is flat in your eyes too?

....and gravity? I'm not buying that crazy bullshit either!

Nope you're right, it was God in 7 days, he just put the fossils and the DNA links there to have a laugh with you....

Same with cheese. Bloody cheesolutionists claiming it exists. Meh.

So please feel free to enlighten me.

Do you think humans will be in the same form as they are today 3.5 billion years from now?

Because that's how long it took to go from the first fossils we know about to today.

[img] [/img]

Yeah,it's like Dinosaurs, they were really,really small,but people just made stuff up about them and now fake all the big bones finds to try and fool us.
[img] [/img]
Oh,and don't get me started on the moon landings,sheez.

jimdubleyou - Member
So please feel free to enlighten me.
Do you think humans will be in the same form as they are today 3.5 billion years from now?

Because that's how long it took to go from the first fossils we know about to today.

the jump from single cell to multi cell only happened 600 million years ago. It took 350million years to go from there to the dinosaurs. and about 4/500million to get to something approaching us.

i've got t-shirts older than that.

Oh,and don't get me started on the moon landings,sheez.

I don't believe in the moon.

Life on Earth has been rolling the evolutionary dice for four billion years. Think about how long that is - the presence of humans on this planet is but a flicker in comparison, and yet you can map significant evolution over that period.

Once you truly conceptualise the full timescale, then even the most complex and diverse lifeforms and variations start to seem possible.

In defence of the op I don't think trolls have followed an evolutionary path, they were magically created at the same time as fairies and dragons

somebody please insert the bart simpson not sure if trolling gif

But was it punctuated or gradual evolution?

I wrote a great essay on this subject for my finals but as is the nature of such exams the essay will never see the light of day.

God made everything, and fish are evil because they weren't drowned in the Great Flood.

[b] bart simpson [/b]not sure if trolling gif

[img] [/img]

but also

In addition to those clips, there is incontravertible evidence such as this:

Evolution is happening right in front of the OP's nose, if he could be arsed to investigate what's around him.
A classic example is a species of moth camouflaged to blend in with the bark of certain trees. It became obvious after a while that due to the dirty air in London causing the bark of trees to become much darker, the moths were becoming darker to avoid showing up and becoming bird food.
The Galápagos Islands finches are the classic example which let Darwin form his theory, and it's obvious in the traffic casualties caused by people obsessed with their phones walking out into the road and getting killed; mostly they're pretty young and haven't had a chance to breed, so their stupidity genes won't get passed on, thus we'll see a slight improvement in the overall intelligence of the human race given time.
Although how we explain America is a bit of a problem...

I don't think you've ever been able to buy evolution have yiu?

Once you truly conceptualise the full timescale, [s]then even the most[/s] less complex and less diverse lifeforms and variations [s]start to[/s] would seem [s]possible.[/s] unlikely.

FTFOP

 

Evolution does fall down by making me bald.
The one place you do want hair is on your head.
It protects your head from bumps , the sun and keeps you warm in winter.
Yet for some reason the most important part of my body has been left open to the elements.
My shoulders don't need it, my toes don't need it, my ****ing head needs it.
There again it could be god being a ****

Everyone knows all life on Earth originated from Engineers, right? 😉

zippykona - Member
Evolution does fall down by making me bald.
The one place you do want hair is on your head.
It protects your head from bumps , the sun and keeps you warm in winter.
Yet for some reason the most important part of my body has been left open to the elements.
My shoulders don't need it, my toes don't need it, my * head needs it.
There again it could be god being a *

Or you could just buy a hat.

Evolution has enabled us to reach the dizzy heights of simple problem solving! 😆

Evolution does fall down by making me bald.
The one place you do want hair is on your head.
It protects your head from bumps , the sun and keeps you warm in winter.
Yet for some reason the most important part of my body has been left open to the elements.
My shoulders don't need it, my toes don't need it, my * head needs it.
There again it could be god being a *

Evolutionary dead ends aren't we?

Us baldies will die of head wounds and sunburn and the hirsute shall inherit the earth.

We shouldn't need to buy hats. If they were more effective than hair surely we would have evolved them?

Apparently hair loss has been linked to higher levels of testosterone. You may be intensely odd-looking, but are more likely to kill your love rivals to death and reproduce.

My mother in law (who is American...) genuinely didn't think evolution was a thing until a couple of years ago.

Incredible.

colournoise - Member
We shouldn't need to buy hats. If they were more effective than hair surely we would have evolved them?

I'll let you walk about in your bare feet as a protest.

[url=www.sciencealert.com/watch-this-3-minute-animation-will-change-your-perception-of-time#.WZ7DGXIdSvc.link]This timeline[/url] puts Earth and evolution into perspective... (sorry can't find a YouTube link to embed).

Evolution does fall down by making me bald.
The one place you do want hair is on your head.
It protects your head from bumps , the sun and keeps you warm in winter.
Yet for some reason the most important part of my body has been left open to the elements.
My shoulders don't need it, my toes don't need it, my * head needs it.
There again it could be god being a *

from an evolutionary point of view, there is no need. We exist purely to pass on our genes, raise young and die early so as not to be a threat to resources for the next generation. That's also why we only have 2 sets of teeth and so on, we are evolved to be at a peak in our late teens/early 20's and then rapidly fall apart after that. Being a baldy is a sign that you had lots of testosterone, could have been a big alpha male, sired lots of young and then shuffled off this mortal coil. You are just an evolutionary embarrassment 🙂

I heard a tourist in Windsor ask her husband (possibly the OP?) why they built the castle under the flight path

OK, first of all this is not a trolling post.

Secondly i understand the theory of evolution (at a basic gcse level)

So let me put some maths to my post.

In terms of mammals, the earliest mammal dates to 200M years ago.

If the average lifespan of a mammal is 10 years then there are

20m generations.

If a genetic mutation/variation occurs every fifth generation thats

4m genetic variations.

Only a certain percentage of those variations would be successful or advantageous, lets say 50%

2m variations.

Is that really enough to allow such a vast array of mammals to exist?

It's evolution via natural selection. Google it.

In short, random mutations produce differences - the differences that are better in a particular environment (i.e. a deer with a longer neck can reach leaves the other deer can't) cause the animal to propsper and have more kids and pass that trait on to more of the next generation so it becomes more common. Then another mutation with an even longer neck can reach even more leaves and so on. In a few thousand generations you end up with giraffes.

Is that really enough to allow such a vast array of mammals to exist?

Clearly it is. But you've just made up those numbers anyway.

Just bear in mind I'm slightly taller than my Dad. So if there was a huge reason to be taller, I'd have an advantage in just one generation. If I fancied tall girls, then we could easily be a tall family in no time at all.

How long does it take to breed a dog? Not long given there are American and even Australian breeds.

I went to Hastings at the weekend

A place that would leave the evolutionists in despair wondering what possible purpose these people were most fit for and the creationist wondering just how inept a god can be.

Actually it turns out Hastings old town has some very nice bits and if it were in Devon of Cornwall everyone would want to go there.

Is that really enough to allow such a vast array of mammals to exist?

It's evolution via natural selection. Google it.

In short, random mutations produce differences - the differences that are better in a particular environment (i.e. a deer with a longer neck can reach leaves the other deer can't) cause the animal to propsper and have more kids and pass that trait on to more of the next generation so it becomes more common. Then another mutation with an even longer neck can reach even more leaves and so on. In a few thousand generations you end up with giraffes.

But thats my problem with it. Not only does it rely on a few thousand generations to form longer necks, you then also need a natural event like a drout to cause the shorter necks to die out because the lack of water means there are no longer any lower leaves.

So how many generrations and natural event/environmental conditions to get from fish to human?

Google "The Darwin Awards", not only is it an interesting/hilarious read. Its slightly educational in that these people are removing themselves and their lower IQ from the gene pool in which to breed.

Evolution is happening right in front of the OP's nose, if he could be arsed to investigate what's around him.
A classic example is a species of moth camouflaged to blend in with the bark of certain trees. It became obvious after a while that due to the dirty air in London causing the bark of trees to become much darker, the moths were becoming darker to avoid showing up and becoming bird food.
The Galápagos Islands finches are the classic example which let Darwin form his theory

Huge, huge difference between evolution [b]within [/b]species and evolution [b]between [/b]species.

Evolution [b]within[/b] species has been proven, without a doubt, by the above. Plenty of further examples if you google it.

Evolution [b]between[/b] species is completely unproven and still a theory. As in, there's no proof that humans came from fish etc.

Short necks will die out pretty damn quick if there is nothing to eat.

Sign up for an evening class in biology!

wouldn't it be

2m variations * average number of mammals

Huge, huge difference between evolution within species and evolution between species.

Evolution within species has been proven, without a doubt, by the above. Plenty of further examples if you google it.

Evolution between species is completely unproven and still a theory. As in, there's no proof that humans came from fish etc.

Assuming you know your onions, i`ll wait for an apology from all the posters just assuming im some sort of moron. Lol.

Evolution does fall down by making me bald.
...
Or you could just buy a hat.

Evolution between species is completely unproven and still a theory. As in, there's no proof that humans came from fish etc.

It would help if you knew the definition of a species, I think.

Assuming you know your onions, i`ll wait for an apology from all the posters just assuming im some sort of moron. Lol.

I wouldn't wait for long - he's ? making stuff up.

Short necks will die out pretty damn quick if there is nothing to eat.

Sign up for an evening class in biology!

Why would there be a shortage of food? And thats my point. There needs to be a natural event to give the long necks an advantage, otherwise they would interbreed with the short necks and we end up with medium necks, which would breed with the short necks and so and the variation would get diluted to a point where it is no longer.

https://www.skullsunlimited.com/record_order.php?id=1
Well I give you the Echidna and the Platypus, one spikey and land living the other water dwelling with it's duck bill and poison claw (it's Australian it has to try and kill you)
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2009/s2693457.htm

MATTHEW PHILLIPS: So it seems quite clear from this study that the echidnas have evolved from something that was very much like a platypus. We've already got fossils from a long time ago, around 60 million years ago, that are essentially platypuses. Slightly different from today's but very much the same, doing the same sorts of things, the same sorts of habitats and look much the same.

And yet we've been able to show that the divergence or last common ancestor between echidnas and platypuses was much more recent that that - only about half that age. And that tells us that platypuses have remained much the same but echidnas have gone off on a very different path.

JENNIFER MACEY: But they seem so different; it seems really unlikely.

MATTHEW PHILLIPS: Well this is one of the big surprises of this is that it does seem to so unlikely and we still have to get a better idea of just how the echidnas did evolve, from going from a transition from being semi-aquatic to being back onto land. This is a very, very rare transition.

sirromj - Member

Evolution does fall down by making me bald.
...
Or you could just buy a hat.

ITS THE HATS THAT MAKE YOU BALD!!!!

I suspect evolution isn't a straight line! 😆

As in, there's no proof that humans came from fish etc.

That, or god made us and I am more prepared to believe in evolution as a concept (despite not being able to understand anything but the simple details) than a supreme being making everything then letting it evolve – which it is what is happening right now. Unless it preprogrammed everything to have the ability to mutate and evolve. Which would seem an odd concept because if it was so clever to be able to invent wasps and people and fish and topi then surely it'd have done it right first time?

There needs to be a natural event to give the long necks an advantage,

No there doesn't - the long necks exploit a different niche to the short necks, even something as basic as eating leaves at different heights. (Not all plants grow to the same height - because of evolution, etc - and not all plants are equally nutritious.

Tbf, its easy to misunderstand the whole subject, but with a bit of thought it's not too difficult.

I think what the OP is getting at is an amazement at how many different species there are in the world today, not an issue with evolution per se. Why didn't everything just evolve into a super-creature that is just 'the best'? My answer to this would be chaos theory; basically the idea in physics that the final states of two different systems can be vastly different, even though the initial conditions were almost exactly the same. So even though we all evolved from the same beginnings/ bacteria, small changes in the environment across the Earth initially, and over the following years, has resulted in the vast array of creatures we see today.

As in, there's no proof that humans came from fish etc.

Well I have an Ex who had slightly webbed feet soooo...

That, or god made us and I am more prepared to believe in evolution as a concept (despite not being able to understand anything but the simple details) than a supreme being making everything then letting it evolve – which it is what is happening right now. Unless it preprogrammed everything to have the ability to mutate and evolve. Which would seem an odd concept because if it was so clever to be able to invent wasps and people and fish and topi then surely it'd have done it right first time?

they have mutated from their original perfect form because of sin. What you see in the world now is simply a product of the fall, and nothing more. Before that there was no decay or death.

Climate change, disease, migration one way with no way back, competition from other species... so many variables. Honestly, the best thing here is to do some proper reading or sign up for a course.

The comment about evolution between species is just nonsense. Humans and fish have a common ancestor... humans and plants have a common ancestor. It was a very long time ago but thats facts. Populations undergo genetic drift when they are separated from one another over significant enough timescales. The example of Darwin's finches is well known and was enough to convince the great man of his theory. Speciation occurs when those changes are large enough such that the offspring of a mating is either not viable or sterile.

Why didn't everything just evolve into a super-creature that is just 'the best'.

its not energy efficient, evolutionary advantage is from a series of small changes that can exploit a niche or survive a change in circumstance a bit better than a a competitor, Why waste energy/time/resources to become the very bestest at running really really fast to escape a predator when a gentle jog will do it? likewise there is no need to be an ultra killer death monkey with 6 inch fangs, if all you need is to something to crack nuts and eat insects 😀

Populations undergo genetic drift when they are separated from one another over significant enough timescales.

Australia and Madagascar are examples of this. Different species took up niches normally populated by others that weren't around or evolved very different traits to their cousins in other, less isolated, places.

they have mutated from their original perfect form because of sin.

but sin is a human concept, do earth worms covert their neighbors oxen?

Exactly. It's all about niches.

We have a new member of staff.
On a recent cold morning I moaned to her that when man left Africa he should have stopped at the Med as it's too cold this far north.
She replied that "He" gave us hats and fire to keep us warm.
I moved the conversation on.

Evolution is happening right in front of the OP's nose, if he could be arsed to investigate what's around him.

Antibiotic-resistant bacteria is another good example.

tazzymtb - Member

they have mutated from their original perfect form because of sin.

but sin is a human concept, do earth worms covert their neighbors oxen?

No it isn't. God allowed sin to enter the world.

Evolution is just a theory. Not yet a proven fact, no matter what Richard Dawkins would have you believe. To my knowledge there is no evidence of macro evolution, only tiny interspecies changes. And someone mentioned the moths changing colour. I read somewhere that these moths were not in the habit of sitting, camouflaged on the tree trunks. They were stuck onto the tree in the photo in an attempt to strengthen the theory. Many science books still contain evidence of evolution that has since been proven to have been falsified. Our planet has not been around long enough for the diversity of life to just 'evolve' in that time.

Why didn't everything just evolve into a super-creature that is just 'the best

Evolution doesn't happen deliberately, that's why things don't evolve to be the best. How can you be the 'best' ant-eating creature, for example? The species just needs to survive and pass genes on which may improve the chance of survival. There are loads of evolutionary oddities, even on ourselves.

it does make your head wobble when you give it serious consideration. Take a look at the passion fruit flower:
[img] [/img]

How nature came about to create something so mind boggling beautifully symmetrical is astounding. Likewise the human body in all it's intricacies. It's that childlike wonder at the world that we sometimes lose as adults but comes to you occasionally when you have the time to stop and look. it's not to say that these details show the existance of a higher power but it does make you wonder..

Evolution is just a theory...... And lots of other BS

Are you posting from 1870?

God made everything, and fish are evil because they [s]weren't drowned in[/s] caused the Great Flood.

eazyd74 - Member
Evolution is just a theory. Not yet a proven fact, no matter what Richard Dawkins would have you believe.

So it seems quite clear from this study that the echidnas have evolved from something that was very much like a platypus. We've already got fossils from a long time ago, around 60 million years ago, that are essentially platypuses. Slightly different from today's but very much the same, doing the same sorts of things, the same sorts of habitats and look much the same.
And yet we've been able to show that the divergence or last common ancestor between echidnas and platypuses was much more recent that that - only about half that age. And that tells us that platypuses have remained much the same but echidnas have gone off on a very different path.

My cash is on the theory being just about nailed on here.

It's that childlike wonder at the world that we sometimes lose as adults but comes to you occasionally when you have the time to stop and look. it's not to say that these details show the existance of a higher power but it does make you wonder..

Not only does it rely on a few thousand generations to form longer necks, you then also need a natural event like a drout to cause the shorter necks to die out because the lack of water means there are no longer any lower leaves.

Not really. Short necks might have had a different advantage. And it's more complicated than that, of course. Long necks might've made it harder to drink water at the watering hole without being eaten by a crocodile. So the giraffes evolve to get their water from juicy fresh leaves on top of trees, and the short necks are happy to eat grass and drink, so they both exploit different niches now.

Just because one group evolves a particular trait, doesn't mean another aren't also evolving a different trait. For example, say you have lions running around eating the deer. The long necks aren't simply evolving on their own, it's part of a mutation that makes you bigger overall. Giraffes are pretty big deer as well as having long necks. So it's a lot harder for a lion to take you down. But not all the deer evolve long necks, some of them just evolve to be quicker. So the original deer ancestor evolves into both gazelles and giraffes.

Why didn't everything just evolve into a super-creature that is just 'the best'?

Because there are lots of food sources. So some species specialise into really exploiting one particular food source really well; others evolve into generalists that can live in loads of places like dogs, seagulls and humans. A specialist can do really really well in one environment, but is vulnerable to that environment disappearing. A generalist isn't as good as a specialist in a particular environment but can move on if it changes.

Basically there are lots of ways to live which is why there are lots of species. Also species compete with each other, so finding food is only one evolutionary driver. Finding mates is another (since no matter how good you are at finding food you aren't passing those genes on if no-one likes you); surviving predators another, and competing with other species or even members of your own species for not only food but also mates.

For example, say male sheep have no predators up in the mountains in a particular area. They evolve bigger and bigger horns so they can win the rights to mate with the flock from other rams. Then the climate changes and more trees grow up in the area, that allows tree-camouflaged predators (e.g. tigers) to move in because they only like living in trees, and suddenly your big horns are a liability.

It's a constantly churning soup of environmental, geographical and biological change - not a one-way streak.

If evolution is about the improvement of the species and it's gradual improvement, how come after millions of years of it we ended up with chewkw?

God allowed sin to enter the world.

That was pretty sloppy of him. Why did he do that, then?

So where did god come from? Did it evolve or was it placed there by something else?

[b]IT'S ALIENS I TELL YOU![/b]

We are all the creations of god, who was created by aliens to make us in 'His' image.

But then... Where did the aliens come from?

For God's* sake, just read The Selfish Gene (and if that makes sense, Climbing Mount Improbable) by Dawkins.

*irony intended.

Oh and on higher beings and all that if instead of the Bible we had found copies of Darwins theory of evolution 2000 years ago would you accept a challenge to it with zero proof?

> The Galápagos Islands finches are the classic example which let Darwin form his theory

Huge, huge difference between evolution within species and evolution between species.

Evolution within species has been proven, without a doubt, by the above. Plenty of further examples if you google it.

Evolution between species is completely unproven and still a theory. As in, there's no proof that humans came from fish etc.

What?

The whole point of Darwin's finches is that it demonstrates speciation.
They are [i]different species[/i] diverging from a shared ancestor.

Hence, y'know, [i]"The Origin of [b]Species[/b]"[/i] where he says:

The most striking and important fact for us in regard to the inhabitants of islands, is their affinity to those of the nearest mainland, [b]without being actually the same species[/b]. [In] the Galapagos Archipelago... almost every product of the land and water bears the unmistakable stamp of the American continent. There are twenty-six land birds, and twenty-five of these are ranked by Mr. Gould as [b]distinct species[/b], supposed to have been created here; yet the close affinity of most of these birds to American species in every character, in their habits, gestures, and tones of voice, was manifest...

.. it is obvious that the Galapagos Islands would be likely to receive colonists, whether by occasional means of transport or by formerly continuous land, from America; and the Cape de Verde Islands from Africa; and that such colonists would be liable to modification;—the principle of inheritance still betraying their original birthplace.