[Closed] Evolution - I`m not buying it.

Evolution is happening right in front of the OP's nose, if he could be arsed to investigate what's around him.
A classic example is a species of moth camouflaged to blend in with the bark of certain trees. It became obvious after a while that due to the dirty air in London causing the bark of trees to become much darker, the moths were becoming darker to avoid showing up and becoming bird food.
The Galápagos Islands finches are the classic example which let Darwin form his theory

Huge, huge difference between evolution [b]within [/b]species and evolution [b]between [/b]species.

Evolution [b]within[/b] species has been proven, without a doubt, by the above. Plenty of further examples if you google it.

Evolution [b]between[/b] species is completely unproven and still a theory. As in, there's no proof that humans came from fish etc.

Short necks will die out pretty damn quick if there is nothing to eat.

Sign up for an evening class in biology!

wouldn't it be

2m variations * average number of mammals

Huge, huge difference between evolution within species and evolution between species.

Evolution within species has been proven, without a doubt, by the above. Plenty of further examples if you google it.

Evolution between species is completely unproven and still a theory. As in, there's no proof that humans came from fish etc.

Assuming you know your onions, i`ll wait for an apology from all the posters just assuming im some sort of moron. Lol.

Evolution does fall down by making me bald.
...
Or you could just buy a hat.

Evolution between species is completely unproven and still a theory. As in, there's no proof that humans came from fish etc.

It would help if you knew the definition of a species, I think.

Assuming you know your onions, i`ll wait for an apology from all the posters just assuming im some sort of moron. Lol.

I wouldn't wait for long - he's ? making stuff up.

Short necks will die out pretty damn quick if there is nothing to eat.

Sign up for an evening class in biology!

Why would there be a shortage of food? And thats my point. There needs to be a natural event to give the long necks an advantage, otherwise they would interbreed with the short necks and we end up with medium necks, which would breed with the short necks and so and the variation would get diluted to a point where it is no longer.

https://www.skullsunlimited.com/record_order.php?id=1
Well I give you the Echidna and the Platypus, one spikey and land living the other water dwelling with it's duck bill and poison claw (it's Australian it has to try and kill you)
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2009/s2693457.htm

MATTHEW PHILLIPS: So it seems quite clear from this study that the echidnas have evolved from something that was very much like a platypus. We've already got fossils from a long time ago, around 60 million years ago, that are essentially platypuses. Slightly different from today's but very much the same, doing the same sorts of things, the same sorts of habitats and look much the same.

And yet we've been able to show that the divergence or last common ancestor between echidnas and platypuses was much more recent that that - only about half that age. And that tells us that platypuses have remained much the same but echidnas have gone off on a very different path.

JENNIFER MACEY: But they seem so different; it seems really unlikely.

MATTHEW PHILLIPS: Well this is one of the big surprises of this is that it does seem to so unlikely and we still have to get a better idea of just how the echidnas did evolve, from going from a transition from being semi-aquatic to being back onto land. This is a very, very rare transition.

sirromj - Member

Evolution does fall down by making me bald.
...
Or you could just buy a hat.

ITS THE HATS THAT MAKE YOU BALD!!!!

I suspect evolution isn't a straight line! 😆

As in, there's no proof that humans came from fish etc.

That, or god made us and I am more prepared to believe in evolution as a concept (despite not being able to understand anything but the simple details) than a supreme being making everything then letting it evolve – which it is what is happening right now. Unless it preprogrammed everything to have the ability to mutate and evolve. Which would seem an odd concept because if it was so clever to be able to invent wasps and people and fish and topi then surely it'd have done it right first time?

There needs to be a natural event to give the long necks an advantage,

No there doesn't - the long necks exploit a different niche to the short necks, even something as basic as eating leaves at different heights. (Not all plants grow to the same height - because of evolution, etc - and not all plants are equally nutritious.

Tbf, its easy to misunderstand the whole subject, but with a bit of thought it's not too difficult.

I think what the OP is getting at is an amazement at how many different species there are in the world today, not an issue with evolution per se. Why didn't everything just evolve into a super-creature that is just 'the best'? My answer to this would be chaos theory; basically the idea in physics that the final states of two different systems can be vastly different, even though the initial conditions were almost exactly the same. So even though we all evolved from the same beginnings/ bacteria, small changes in the environment across the Earth initially, and over the following years, has resulted in the vast array of creatures we see today.

As in, there's no proof that humans came from fish etc.

Well I have an Ex who had slightly webbed feet soooo...

That, or god made us and I am more prepared to believe in evolution as a concept (despite not being able to understand anything but the simple details) than a supreme being making everything then letting it evolve – which it is what is happening right now. Unless it preprogrammed everything to have the ability to mutate and evolve. Which would seem an odd concept because if it was so clever to be able to invent wasps and people and fish and topi then surely it'd have done it right first time?

they have mutated from their original perfect form because of sin. What you see in the world now is simply a product of the fall, and nothing more. Before that there was no decay or death.

Climate change, disease, migration one way with no way back, competition from other species... so many variables. Honestly, the best thing here is to do some proper reading or sign up for a course.

The comment about evolution between species is just nonsense. Humans and fish have a common ancestor... humans and plants have a common ancestor. It was a very long time ago but thats facts. Populations undergo genetic drift when they are separated from one another over significant enough timescales. The example of Darwin's finches is well known and was enough to convince the great man of his theory. Speciation occurs when those changes are large enough such that the offspring of a mating is either not viable or sterile.

Why didn't everything just evolve into a super-creature that is just 'the best'.

its not energy efficient, evolutionary advantage is from a series of small changes that can exploit a niche or survive a change in circumstance a bit better than a a competitor, Why waste energy/time/resources to become the very bestest at running really really fast to escape a predator when a gentle jog will do it? likewise there is no need to be an ultra killer death monkey with 6 inch fangs, if all you need is to something to crack nuts and eat insects 😀

Populations undergo genetic drift when they are separated from one another over significant enough timescales.

Australia and Madagascar are examples of this. Different species took up niches normally populated by others that weren't around or evolved very different traits to their cousins in other, less isolated, places.

they have mutated from their original perfect form because of sin.

but sin is a human concept, do earth worms covert their neighbors oxen?

Exactly. It's all about niches.

We have a new member of staff.
On a recent cold morning I moaned to her that when man left Africa he should have stopped at the Med as it's too cold this far north.
She replied that "He" gave us hats and fire to keep us warm.
I moved the conversation on.

Evolution is happening right in front of the OP's nose, if he could be arsed to investigate what's around him.

Antibiotic-resistant bacteria is another good example.

tazzymtb - Member

they have mutated from their original perfect form because of sin.

but sin is a human concept, do earth worms covert their neighbors oxen?

No it isn't. God allowed sin to enter the world.

Evolution is just a theory. Not yet a proven fact, no matter what Richard Dawkins would have you believe. To my knowledge there is no evidence of macro evolution, only tiny interspecies changes. And someone mentioned the moths changing colour. I read somewhere that these moths were not in the habit of sitting, camouflaged on the tree trunks. They were stuck onto the tree in the photo in an attempt to strengthen the theory. Many science books still contain evidence of evolution that has since been proven to have been falsified. Our planet has not been around long enough for the diversity of life to just 'evolve' in that time.

Why didn't everything just evolve into a super-creature that is just 'the best

Evolution doesn't happen deliberately, that's why things don't evolve to be the best. How can you be the 'best' ant-eating creature, for example? The species just needs to survive and pass genes on which may improve the chance of survival. There are loads of evolutionary oddities, even on ourselves.

it does make your head wobble when you give it serious consideration. Take a look at the passion fruit flower:
[img] [/img]

How nature came about to create something so mind boggling beautifully symmetrical is astounding. Likewise the human body in all it's intricacies. It's that childlike wonder at the world that we sometimes lose as adults but comes to you occasionally when you have the time to stop and look. it's not to say that these details show the existance of a higher power but it does make you wonder..

Evolution is just a theory...... And lots of other BS

Are you posting from 1870?

God made everything, and fish are evil because they [s]weren't drowned in[/s] caused the Great Flood.

eazyd74 - Member
Evolution is just a theory. Not yet a proven fact, no matter what Richard Dawkins would have you believe.

So it seems quite clear from this study that the echidnas have evolved from something that was very much like a platypus. We've already got fossils from a long time ago, around 60 million years ago, that are essentially platypuses. Slightly different from today's but very much the same, doing the same sorts of things, the same sorts of habitats and look much the same.
And yet we've been able to show that the divergence or last common ancestor between echidnas and platypuses was much more recent that that - only about half that age. And that tells us that platypuses have remained much the same but echidnas have gone off on a very different path.

My cash is on the theory being just about nailed on here.

It's that childlike wonder at the world that we sometimes lose as adults but comes to you occasionally when you have the time to stop and look. it's not to say that these details show the existance of a higher power but it does make you wonder..

Not only does it rely on a few thousand generations to form longer necks, you then also need a natural event like a drout to cause the shorter necks to die out because the lack of water means there are no longer any lower leaves.

Not really. Short necks might have had a different advantage. And it's more complicated than that, of course. Long necks might've made it harder to drink water at the watering hole without being eaten by a crocodile. So the giraffes evolve to get their water from juicy fresh leaves on top of trees, and the short necks are happy to eat grass and drink, so they both exploit different niches now.

Just because one group evolves a particular trait, doesn't mean another aren't also evolving a different trait. For example, say you have lions running around eating the deer. The long necks aren't simply evolving on their own, it's part of a mutation that makes you bigger overall. Giraffes are pretty big deer as well as having long necks. So it's a lot harder for a lion to take you down. But not all the deer evolve long necks, some of them just evolve to be quicker. So the original deer ancestor evolves into both gazelles and giraffes.

Why didn't everything just evolve into a super-creature that is just 'the best'?

Because there are lots of food sources. So some species specialise into really exploiting one particular food source really well; others evolve into generalists that can live in loads of places like dogs, seagulls and humans. A specialist can do really really well in one environment, but is vulnerable to that environment disappearing. A generalist isn't as good as a specialist in a particular environment but can move on if it changes.

Basically there are lots of ways to live which is why there are lots of species. Also species compete with each other, so finding food is only one evolutionary driver. Finding mates is another (since no matter how good you are at finding food you aren't passing those genes on if no-one likes you); surviving predators another, and competing with other species or even members of your own species for not only food but also mates.

For example, say male sheep have no predators up in the mountains in a particular area. They evolve bigger and bigger horns so they can win the rights to mate with the flock from other rams. Then the climate changes and more trees grow up in the area, that allows tree-camouflaged predators (e.g. tigers) to move in because they only like living in trees, and suddenly your big horns are a liability.

It's a constantly churning soup of environmental, geographical and biological change - not a one-way streak.

If evolution is about the improvement of the species and it's gradual improvement, how come after millions of years of it we ended up with chewkw?

God allowed sin to enter the world.

That was pretty sloppy of him. Why did he do that, then?

So where did god come from? Did it evolve or was it placed there by something else?

[b]IT'S ALIENS I TELL YOU![/b]

We are all the creations of god, who was created by aliens to make us in 'His' image.

But then... Where did the aliens come from?

For God's* sake, just read The Selfish Gene (and if that makes sense, Climbing Mount Improbable) by Dawkins.

*irony intended.

Oh and on higher beings and all that if instead of the Bible we had found copies of Darwins theory of evolution 2000 years ago would you accept a challenge to it with zero proof?

> The Galápagos Islands finches are the classic example which let Darwin form his theory

Huge, huge difference between evolution within species and evolution between species.

Evolution within species has been proven, without a doubt, by the above. Plenty of further examples if you google it.

Evolution between species is completely unproven and still a theory. As in, there's no proof that humans came from fish etc.

What?

The whole point of Darwin's finches is that it demonstrates speciation.
They are [i]different species[/i] diverging from a shared ancestor.

Hence, y'know, [i]"The Origin of [b]Species[/b]"[/i] where he says:

The most striking and important fact for us in regard to the inhabitants of islands, is their affinity to those of the nearest mainland, [b]without being actually the same species[/b]. [In] the Galapagos Archipelago... almost every product of the land and water bears the unmistakable stamp of the American continent. There are twenty-six land birds, and twenty-five of these are ranked by Mr. Gould as [b]distinct species[/b], supposed to have been created here; yet the close affinity of most of these birds to American species in every character, in their habits, gestures, and tones of voice, was manifest...

.. it is obvious that the Galapagos Islands would be likely to receive colonists, whether by occasional means of transport or by formerly continuous land, from America; and the Cape de Verde Islands from Africa; and that such colonists would be liable to modification;—the principle of inheritance still betraying their original birthplace.

warfarin resistance in mouse and rat species is also great for showing how mutation in the VKORC1 gene is expressed as a resistance to warfarin and similar products, which is then rapidly spread into the population by interbreeding of those survivors that have the mutation conferring that Resistance down the generations.

I read something a while ago that for the first time babies are now mostly born with thumbs stronger than their index fingers. This is evolution in motion and as a result of previous generations using thumbs more with texting, playing video games etc.

Cougar - Moderator

God allowed sin to enter the world.

That was pretty sloppy of him. Why did he do that, then?

Omnipotence

I read something a while ago that for the first time babies are now mostly born with thumbs stronger than their index fingers. This is evolution in motion and as a result of previous generations using thumbs more with texting, playing video games etc.

How could this possibly be true if there was no reproductive advantage from increased txting and game playing ability?

Sounds like nonsense to me...

I think what the OP is getting at is an amazement at how many different species there are in the world today, not an issue with evolution per se

This^

Im not religious in the slightest. I dont doubt that evolution happens. Im just not sure it could of happened to the extent it has in the timescale available.

I read something a while ago that for the first time babies are now mostly born with thumbs stronger than their index fingers. This is evolution in motion and as a result of previous generations using thumbs more with texting, playing video games etc.

hahahha, thats a joke right?

I read something a while ago that for the first time babies are now mostly born with thumbs stronger than their index fingers. This is evolution in motion and as a result of previous generations using thumbs more with texting, playing video games etc.

doubtful, as a strong thumb is derived from use not genetic inheritance, unless there is "strong thumb gene" that is now more desirable in choosing a mate, so that over time the smartphone users only choose to mate with other smart phone users with a pronounced strong thumb and then as a by product of that selection you would get a selective breeding effect. Much like breeding dogs with shorter muzzles for appearance

I dont doubt that evolution happens. Im just not sure it could of happened to the extent it has in the timescale available.

[Looks around]

Got any better ideas?

Well perhaps it's time to accept it has. Is there another competing theory that explains something happening in the time scales?

Omnipotence

He allowed sin because he's omnipotent? Surely if he was omnipotent he'd have stopped it. Seems a pretty mean thing to do intentionally.