EV real world experience - the difference cold weather makes

Interesting real world experience, I've previously seen anecdotal reports that ev batteries don't degrade as much as experts thought they would. I guess various factors can influence battery health but a 10 yo car that might only be able to do 10 miles isn't a great lifespan.

I have similar with my golf GTE when using pure EV mode.
In the summer i can get to and from work just on electric power (charged 100% over night) in July I bought 0 petrol. No chance on winter with cold, lights and heater on.
I now drive to work in the morning in hybrid mode (well actually first few miles are in charging mode to get some heat in the system to demist/ defrost the car) and burn through an 80% charge coming home on electric.

It all academic now as the hybrid system shat itself with all the rain and needs VW to look at it (£150 to just look at it).
Am seriously thinking of going back to burning dinosaurs.

This the same gen1 leaf that when you bought it everyone told you about the shitty non temperature controlled battery?

Poor temperature regulation of NMC batteries causes exactly this issue.

Modern tech does indeed reduce degradation rate.

As another leaf owner who lives in a cold places, and has owned for a couple of years... this is what I've observed...

Heating on affects it obviously. What temp are you setting the aircon to? Mines at 62.
What's it like underwheel - if you're ploughing thro' slush that hammers performance.. ditto really heavy siting water.

Temp - are you charging in or out of a garage. This is the bi g one - IF you're charging in open air at -6 the batteries ability to charge and discharge gets reduced a lot, as the battery charging isn't smart enough to turn on battery heating. You thus never get that much power into the battery. Mine lives in an indirectly heated garage. Typically to drive to the office I'll use 10% battery. In the winter , even at -10, I'll use 13,14 % thanks to heating and prewarm, but the battery is charged in the comparative warm ´6C in the garage and 12 in the garage at work.

This is nothing to do with degredation. Keeping the cars in Californian temperatues exaggerates that

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-electric-car-thread/

Took a few seconds to find using the search box.

Thanks Simon - MODS, close this one if you like

lots, like 25%-35% difference. Tesla model 3, normally c200 miles range every morning. Did a journey ive done previously on one charge (150 miles) no problem, totay, got to the supercharger with 3% left, 10 miles from the house. Only 3 years old!

Depends on how warm a car you like. Also what type of heater you have in it. VW do an optional heat pump heater which apparently uses less leccy.

I'm getting about 2/3 of the range I was getting in the summer. But then I preheat the car before I get in. Have the temperature set to 20C, heated seat and steering wheel on and lights on the whole time driving.

I’ve dropped from about 2.6 to 2.3 mi/kw.hr, so only about 12% ish. It’s hard to be precise though as things vary a lot and I’ve only had it since Sep so hard to make much of a judgement.

Short journeys are always much worse efficiency as the car heats itself up, I imagine that means that short trips in winter would be affected more than long runs?

Etron driver here.

June - sept - average 2.5 to 2.7 Mi/Kw

Oct - Nov - 2.3 - 2.5 Mi/Kw

Dec - 2.3 - 2.1 Mi/Kw

Last 3-4 days (-1 average temp). 1.7 Mi/Kw

Hi @jonnyboi

I’ve got an ETron too so am interested to hear about your experience. My experience roughly matches yours except for the last few days where I am seeing more like 2.3 over a long ish run. Was yours on short or long runs ?

Some fact checking says my experience of a 1/3 less range at -5°C is typical. Aparently 2/3 of that difference is down to the heater. But ICEs lose even more range due to inefficient cold engine running, if you can put up with not using the heater the EV loses less in cold weather than an ICE. Sources:

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/fuel-economy-cold-weather

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1539670/E10-Petrol-Dropping-Winter-Fuel-Economy

I'll continue using the heater, the only car that's had a heater I haven't used was a T2 because the heat exchangers were cracked and filled the cabin with carbon monoxide.

@whatgoesup mixture but no more that 35 miles and that included 20 miles of motorway/A road. sensible driving as well, under speed limit and no 'S' mode!

I find it hard to run without the heating on at some capacity as the windows tend to steam up. that said, I'm not prepared to freeze either. Sorry planet

But ICEs lose even more range due to inefficient cold engine running

Pretty sure I could still go over 650 miles in my ICE vehicle though between fill ups. I have done 720 miles in summer conditions. I only see a maybe a 3 or 4mpg reduction at most on medium or long journeys. Other than a longer warm up time for ICE cars things like more friction on cold tyre rubber are the same for ICE and EVs.

As for loss of efficiency on short local trips? Who cares? I just checked and I was a month between my two most recent top ups.

The inefficiency of cold ICE engines is one of those crap facts that EVC nerds bring up. It is true but the engines are designed to warm up really quickly so rarely relevant on most journeys of any length. I am surprised Edukator used it as most of what he says makes sense (sort of) environmentally

I’ll continue using the heater

Just wear a coat

PMSL, calling me a nerd with inconvenient facts about ICEs on a thread you started to slag off cold EV inefficiency, WorldClassAccident. 🙂

40 years ago diesel fuel used to "wax" in cold temps and clog the fuel filter. Modern fuel is less likely to suffer. Batteries have and will improve, assuming that they continue to power vehicles

Rolls-Royce have run a hydrogen-fuelled jet engine and diesel-hydrogen conversions are now available because batteries aren't practical for large, long-distance goods vehicles. Clever engineering is reducing emissions.
The 2030 ICE car and van ban on new vehicles isn't far away, but developmentally we've a long way to go

Ah yes, cold weather.

Our 2022 eNiro has a state range in summer of 450 km and, for the most part will achieve that, obviously with small variations for climate control and driving style (faster means less efficient, etc). Winter makes things a bit more difficult for us.

It is currently only about -10C at home, but that does impact the range dropping it to about 360km for the same type of journeys and driving style. It’s easy to see the drop that climate control has, but charging then driving gives a slight boost as the battery is warmer.

We’ll start seeing it creep up in range in March, but I expect it to drop to 350km when it starts getting properly cold.

But ICEs lose even more range due to inefficient cold

pre winter Gloucester to London 52.7mpg indicated, Saturday morning at -2 51.3mpg indicated.

I’m guessing you are talking about short journeys? Even so…

Thanks @jonnyboi - that makes sense. I’ve found day to day shortish journey efficiency has dropped a lot, in line with what you’ve said. Longer trips seem less affected.

So… range drops mostly for shorter journeys where range doesn’t generally matter as much, and only drops a bit for longer journeys where is generally does. Not so bad then and not dissimilar to ICE cars.

. It is true but the engines are designed to warm up really quickly s

Anecdotal sample size of one, my 2003 honda dinosaur burner takes under a mile to reach normal temp.

I'm loving this justification of "it doesnt matter that I've lots a lot of range because I only wanted to do a short trip any way".

wtf...

I previously used diesel and petrol cars.. .they both get hammered for fuel economy driving on slush as well , but that's rolling resistance increasing along with slipping. I doubt the efficiency change for the first 5 or 10 minutes will the engine warms does much .

My Leaf is 7 years old, 11 of 12 bars on the battery and will soon go over 150,000 km. Charging it in a garage is what makes a difference.

Drove from Heathrow back to North Yorkshire yesterday. Averaged 4 miles/kWh in my Model 3, up from 4.5 miles/kWh in the summer, on all-season tyres. Heat pump makes a huge difference.

Only thing I don't like is that the Tesla pre-heats the battery for fast charging, but on a long cold journey this can give away as much as 10kWh of capacity. I've stopped doing this now, as I'd prefer to take an extra ten minutes on the charger as opposed to spending an extra fiver on electricity.

[i]PMSL, calling me a nerd with inconvenient facts about ICEs on a thread you started to slag off cold EV inefficiency, WorldClassAccident.[/i]

Please accept my apology, text is hard to put intonation into. I am not trying to insult you, just saying the cold ICE engine inefficiency and irrelevant after the first few minutes of a journey and was surprised you were perpetuating the twist that suggested it wads a significant factor when people are talking about 150 - 600 mile journey distances. I didn't mean to imply you were a nerd and actually said I was surprised that you were using and argument usually reserved for nerds.

Also, I was not slagging off electric cars. Just stating the effect of the cold on my own car - that I bought and paid for to try the electric experiment, rather than being allocated a company car, and use more frequently, but for less mileage, than any of my other cars.

As I said right in the very first post : [i]I am not trying to preach for or against EVs, just sharing some facts.[/i]

If you wanted to try MTBing would you buy a Raleigh Shopper or a current 150mm 27.5 Enduro bike? In ICE terms you're comparing a 50s Moris Minor with your AMG. Even when new the Leaf had all the flaws of a first generation EV. How old is the battery now? It's impressive the thing still charges at all.

I agree with you. A 2011 Leaf is early generation electric compared with a 2007 ICE. That is why I am not slagging off all EVs.

Where it is a valid and useful reference is for showing the impact of cold on the batteries. Because my Leaf is so crap with only about 40% of its battery useable, the impact of the cold is magnified.

This does not mean that every latest Telsa or wizz-bang (wizz-buzz?) electric car will be reduced to a 10 mile range each time it snows but it does allow people to see that the temperature, once it drops below zero at least, has a disproportionate effect.

One useful thing I have learnt fromt his thread is the effect of the cold on the charging capability of batteries. This probably goes a long way to explaining why the total range when 'fully charged' was just 22 miles instead of the normal 40+ miles. This is the main reason, I thought, for these threads. To share experiences and understanding. If it is just to shout at people who question 'THE TRUTH' then perhaps I should retreat to the polite and reasoned discussions of the F1 thread 🙂

We get around 145-150- miles in the summer and around 110-120 miles in the winter from our i3.

Another thought that springs to mind. Those classic news stories like this morning - of people stuck in their cars, in snow on the M25 (or wherever). How long can you keep the car warm with an EV vs a tank of dirty diesel? (Hopefully you’ve planned appropriately and have a full tank for your journey, venturing into the winter conditions!).

Genuine question, not a dig.

WCA - thanks for starting the thread. The impact of cold weather on EV range isn't something I'd thought much about, but living in a cold part of the country (currently -13C) with limited charging facilities, it's plainly going to be a major issue for me.

I can't comment on this as my Leaf has such a poor battery I never use the heater but if on a modern and well designed i3 the range drops about 25% in the cold then I would pack a spare coat and take an independent heater before venturing out on any long trips. I remember being stuck on the motorway for 4 hours between Lancashire and Yorkshire one Christmas after a crash blocked it. Me, Mum and my sister all cuddling like inbreds on the back seat under coats hoping to be saved soon. Not something I would wish on anyone.

I’m loving this justification of “it doesnt matter that I’ve lots a lot of range because I only wanted to do a short trip any way”.

wtf…

Well it doesn't matter, you just plug in when back home so you're back up at 80% or 100% next time you need the car. It just costs a bit more because the of the heater use and all the other seasonal stuff mentioned has increased consumption....just like an ICE car.

The bigger issue for me (seeing 2.8-3 miles per KWh in this weather instead of 3.5 ave) will be the slower charging speeds at the rapid chargers I use on the odd occasion I'm doing a big journey. Ionity last week was ~35Kw- 55 for all the cars plugged in (the lower number is 10% of their stated potential speed!). That one never runs that fast even in summer in my experience and so I won't be paying their monthly subscription when the Hyundai one runs out. I don't have preheat battery on my car (which I regret not ordering) but interesting to read the Tesla guy saying he's decided just to not use and instead take a hit on the charging time rather than pay for 10 min of pre-heating.

The hit is most extreme at the start of a journey or for a short trip, so an EV with a tiny range like this is going to be an extreme example.

I've done the same 200 mile journey perhaps 100 times across all seasons and on that I see a difference between the extremes of about 30%. But NB it needs more than just low temperatures to get to the winter extreme on a longer journey - either extra wind resistance or wet to affect consumption that way.

We get around 145-150- miles in the summer and around 110-120 miles in the winter from our i3.

Yep, same here. Ours has the heat pump thing. Range has dropped to around 100 in the current -4 temp but will also go up to 160+ during the hottest days but your figures are our average.

Nearly 3 years old and the battery does not seem to have degraded at all. Goes back next May though and will be replaced with a second hand petrol/diesel simply because the cost of a new lease is stupid.

[i]I’m loving this justification of “it doesn't matter that I’ve lots a lot of range because I only wanted to do a short trip any way”.[/i]

I guess I am the exception because I specifically bought this car to only do short journeys. The idea was this would reduce unnecessary wear on the engine of the Maserati I was planning, but failed, to buy - I know, I am such an eco-bunny I found myself blushing.

This meant I was fine with a 30 mile range as it was only to be used to go to the train station and local shops. Before anyone starts, I have a knackered ankle and blue badge because I can't walk there. This was just before the global plague when all long distance travel stopped so the little shitbox actually became my main vehicle. As pedlead says, you do a journey and on your return just plug it back in*. This is a mind set change from ICE where you fill up and then drive around for ages until the warning light comes on and then fill up again. Neither approach is particularly good or bad, just different.

*The Leaf has no charging logic so you actually are better not charging it every time but rather only charge once it has dropped below 50%. Fortunately my car is sio crap, this is pretty much every journey anyway.

Your 'THE THRUTH' isn't a representative truth. It's so far from the experience of current EV users I'd describe it as anti-EV propaganda from a petrolhead fossil fuel fan. 1 sports car, 1 AMG, 1 porsche-based kit car planned, have I seen a van too? 1 diesel garage heater planned.

You provide the information, it's easy to interpret. You're one of the most prolific posters on here, WorldclassAccident. I love some of your stuff, the arty stuff, the DIY stuff, your various toys (including the Leaf because you use it as a toy like the sports car rather than main transport) etc.. but we are never going to agree on some stuff and forums are not only about sharing experieinces and understanding, they're about personal responsibilities in society.

a petrolhead fossil fuel fan. 1 sports car, 1 AMG, 1 porsche-based kit car planned, have I seen a van too? 1 diesel garage heater planned

Stalkers have been convicted for less

The impact of cold weather on EV range isn’t something I’d thought much about, but living in a cold part of the country (currently -13C) with limited charging facilities, it’s plainly going to be a major issue for me.

Where do you actually go though? Unless you were going to a 'big city' you are unlikely to go anywhere near the 200 miles+ winter that any half decent (Korean) modern EV can do.

I can do a sub zero run from the FRB to Glencoe ski centre and home again, without charging and coming back with 30 miles+ left on the range. That seems about as far as I could be bothered to drive in a day? Not in the van mind, that's a different story. A heat pump makes a huge difference, as expected.

🙂 An outbreak of understanding I feel. Good.

Yes, I enjoy my cars, arts etc. I only drive one car at a time and they are all at least 2nd hand so re-use rather than replace. The Porc-chop / Citwrong is going to replace the red sports car as a 1:1 swap. Diesel heater will be run on bio-fuel and allow me to continue to re-use and recycle scrap materials into my sculptures etc.

I agree that my consumption is higher than strictly necessary but it is also consumed with a conscience. I find a balance in my life where I am comfortable between personal gratification, adding benefit to others, and mi9nimising my damage impact on the planet.

We all make that choice, consciously or otherwise. Do we drink coffee - I do - which has been imported from elsewhere even though it is not necessary to our life? Do we burn plastics in our back gardens or use landfill? Do we have children?

Lots of choices and some of them can be quite provocative which is why discussions can easily descend into silly name calling. Thankfully we are more grown up than that.

Anyway, I think the point about the impact of cold has been discussed and I have learned about the effect of the cold on charging. We have reached a mutually acceptable position of respected difference and all is (relatively) well on STW.

My Gen 2 Leaf Tekna is 8 years old and I've had it for 6.5 of those.

11 bars and 70k of which I've put 66k on it. Range has gone down about 10% in that time do now it does about 70 miles in the summer and about 60 in the depths of winter. - I mainly drive it flat out everywhere with the heater or a/c on and today had the heated seats and steering wheel on too!

I love it but as i found out last night, it is completely totally unvbeliveably rubbish on snow. Having no gears and loads of torque just means either teh traction control kills all the power and it practically comes to a stop or with the traction off it spins everywhere. Had to abandon it last night about 1 mile from my house as I live on a hill and then go home to get my snowsocks. With snow socks on this morning it got up our icy hill that even my neighbour in his faux 4 x 4 couldn't

I'm a bit bemused at the arguments that seem to be taking place, so will ignore all of that and spoil the fun with some data.

Downloading the "short term memory" data from my ETron - basically a trip computer that automatically resets itself every time the car is off for two hours or more (so one set of data could be two individual trips if one started within two hours of the other).

I put this into Excel, split into "months" as a rough surrogate for temperature. I'm sure it's possible to download temp data from somewhere and pull that in, but this will do for now.

As expected, efficiency changes a LOT with trip length, more so than it does for temperature.

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52557933872_70b83c2289_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52557933872_70b83c2289_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2o5n9DE ]efficiency graph[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/85556236@N06/ ]markwsf[/url], on Flickr

Trying to summarise this, for driving >75 miles my avergae efficiency has dropped by 14% from Sep to Dec, and for driving <50 miles it's dropped by 25%. Seems to roughly match the real world experiences described by others above.

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52558860630_6d98630769_o.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52558860630_6d98630769_o.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2o5rU9f ]averages[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/85556236@N06/ ]markwsf[/url], on Flickr

Interesting real world experience, I’ve previously seen anecdotal reports that ev batteries don’t degrade as much as experts thought they would. I guess various factors can influence battery health but a 10 yo car that might only be able to do 10 miles isn’t a great lifespan.

Isn't most of that because they only had a ~50 mile range to begin with? Which means the kind of person buying them is going to be the type that want's to see a return on the investment so probably had a ~49 mile commute. Which mean the batteries get thrashed, having to run 100%-0% every day, flat out (because maximum discharge rate is a function of capacity).

Compare to ~300mile range cars that are doing potentially a million miles with manageable levels of degradation because the same journey is less than 15% of the capacity, and the battery is barely ticking over whilst delivering it.

Like saying "this 10 year old 10.8V Black and Decker drill is crap, we should stick with hand drills". Whilst ignoring that Makita 18V tools exist for a reason.

will ignore all of that and spoil the fun with some data

Thank you - very informative.

Where's that 'Like' button?