Do we burn plastics in our back gardens
Please tell me people don't really do that 😬😬😬
Anyway, I don't have an EV but I do have an ebike, and when riding it in temps of about 3C last week I noticed the range had dropped by a good 25%.
Which was a bit surprising. But interesting to see that it's just as much of an issue for EV drivers!
Trying to summarise this, for driving >75 miles my avergae efficiency has dropped by 14% from Sep to Dec, and for driving <50 miles it’s dropped by 25%. Seems to roughly match the real world experiences described by others above.
That's interesting. Any idea why journeys of 25-50 miles appear to be more significantly affected than journeys <10 miles? If those are averages, presumably there's point in there that's really dragging the average down? Or did you just not do very many journeys in that range so there's possibly one big outlier?
Any idea why journeys of 25-50 miles appear to be more significantly affected than journeys <10 miles? If those are averages, presumably there’s point in there that’s really dragging the average down? Or did you just not do very many journeys in that range so there’s possibly one big outlier?
Probably just "noisy data" - as you say a few outliers which will have a large effect as there's not that many points. Oct and Nov were also pretty warm so assuming temp drops over those months is a bit crude.
The graph of actual data points is shown in my post - you can see the low distance journeys there. Interestingly, taking a further look the data seems to show that efficiency flattens off at less than 10 miles, so it's more of a "curve to 7-10 miles" and then a flat line from there on.
If terms of why efficiency is lower for short trips, and why it's more affected by temp than longer trips there's been some discussion over the last few pages, but in short it's the energy needed to heat up the cabin, motor, batteries etc from cold - over longer trips this has more miles to average out over. And the temp delta from "cold" to "warm" is greater in the winter.
So what I'm seeing so far is a steady state efficiency drop of circa 13% plus a "chunk" of energy needed to heat the car up. Also bear in mind it's just one case, one car, relatively limited number of data points and with data from Sep to Dec this year - not a massive range. I've also not done many short trips during the cold snap, just long ones.
EV's are not that efficient 'shocker'
I wont be buying an EV anytime soon having had one for 4 years in the past. If you live in the right climate, do the right type of journey, carry the right type of stuff (ie nothing heavy or on the outside of the car or tow) then they are good.
I am more than happy to keep using petrol or diesel for now, although I really do miss getting in to a nice warm car in the morning. You have to pre warm an EV using the mains supply unless you want it to eat battery.
EV’s are not that efficient ‘shocker’
Sorry, what?
1.5p/mile and 37g/km CO2 is pretty efficient, no?
Actually more like 1.8p/mile in winter, but the 37g/km number is from my charger this morning so it reflects the cold weather.
You have to pre warm an EV using the mains supply unless you want it to eat battery.
Yeah but if you're commuting then you can afford to do that. You don't need mega range if you are just driving to work and back.
I would love my own EV rather than a lease, and I would tow with it too. Yeah, it's slower, because you have to stop more, but I can put up with that for one or two trips a year.
If you live in the right climate, do the right type of journey, carry the right type of stuff (ie nothing heavy or on the outside of the car or tow) then they are good.
I reckon a large majority of people satisfy all those criteria.
Efficiency depends totally on the attributes you use to calculate it and what you choos eto mean efficient.
EV CARS ARE NOT EFFICIENT ways of flying to the moon
ICE CARS ARE NOT EFFICIENT ways of collecting penguin faeces
When you start to add factors like towing capabilities, unfavourable terrain or climate etc you can make them inefficient. Energy use and energy source are just two attributes. It is a bit like ICE engines are inefficient in the cold - true but less so that EVs with the heater on and towing a caravan for 400 miles. Much more true for the 1/4 mile to the garage and back for a pack of fags type trip.
I have a diesel that is nice and warm when i get in it in the morning.
Just start the heater (timer or remote) or if it's a longer journey, or really cold, start the engine AND heater (remote start only).
Uses under 0,1 litres of fuel to bring the cabin up to temperature on the heater (takes 10 mins at -5) and about 0.15-0,2 litres if both are running (10 minutes at -10).
If i just use the heater it means i save about third a litre of fuel on the way to work. If i start the engine, i save about 2/3rds. That's the complete consumption.
It's a judgement call every morning though, is it cold enough, where am i going, who is going to be in the car, is the car encased in ice and/or snow.
It's a very similar calculation for an EV. Preheat cabin/battery/stuff and have better efficiency as soon as you start moving, or use the internal losses related to use/inefficiency to heat everything up and "save" the energy that you would have used to preheat.
the 37g/km number is from my charger this morning so it reflects the cold weather.
UK electricity carbon intensity is currently ~280g CO2 / kWh (lowest 270, peak 291)
Ignoring charging losses, etc, 37g/km implies 7.5km / kWh or 4.7 miles/kWh
That seems much higher than the miles/kWh figures experienced in the previous posts. 2miles / kWh would correspond to ~90g/km CO2 currently.
I reckon a large majority of people satisfy all those criteria.
Ok let me rephrase - you are never going to get claimed EV ranges due to climatic factors.
ie in the winter they use more power to heat up. In the summer they use more energy keeping cool. Yes I know ICE is subject to the same losses, and it would be interesting to see comparison in overall loss of efficiency. I would imagine though the graph of fall off in efficiency of ICE isnt as great with age as with battery
Anecdotal sample size of one, my 2003 honda dinosaur burner takes under a mile to reach normal temp.
I'd hazard a guess you are looking at water temp not engine temp. My petrol car reaches normal temp according to the temperature gauge very quickly, but when I dig into the car info, it shows oil temp takes at least 5 miles to reach the same temp.
Last week we took a 230mls range EVito tourer on a 65 mile journey. We switched the heaters on and it went from 230mls to 180 immediately. So we ended up doing the journey with intermittant heating to clear the windows. Thankfully i drove and had heated seats. We needed to get back the next day and managed it with heating blaring and 19mls left on range. So 230mls range went down to about 150mls real range with sparodic heating.
I have a C300 hybrid. Its amazing with its 11kw electric 100bhp topping up the 200bhp diesel. 650mls diesel range plus 30mls (Summer) or 15-20mls electric range. It is bang on with its range when used around town and can sometime go a month without putting diesel in it. I end up doing about 30% driving on electric.
Best thing is the pre climate control. Get into a tropical temp car, turn heating off and enjoy the full range available.
I am assuming most EVs now come with heated seats and some kind of air scarf so they heat the people rather than having to heat all the air in the car and tusing that to heat the people. With the heated seats on and air scarf blowing at 22 degrees I am quite comfortable with the roof down in sub-zero temperatures in my Kleemann Planet Destroyer and still get 40mpg+
When you start to add factors like towing capabilities, unfavourable terrain or climate etc you can make them inefficient.
The same factors affect ICE cars just as much, if not more.
UK electricity carbon intensity is currently ~280g CO2 / kWh (lowest 270, peak 291)
sauce
Ignoring charging losses, etc, 37g/km implies 7.5km / kWh or 4.7 miles/kWh
That seems much higher than the miles/kWh figures experienced in the previous posts. 2miles / kWh would correspond to ~90g/km CO2 currently.
Yeah that's about what we have been getting the last month or so, so I guess the charger is using an average not the number from the last charge. My wife got 4.2 this morning, going uphill. Last 30 days average is 4.88.
2 m/kWh is awful, about as bad as it gets (in fact that's the worst figure I've seen reported ever). So it's equivalent to an ICE car getting 20mpg.
2 m/kWh is awful, about as bad as it gets (in fact that’s the worst figure I’ve seen reported ever).
Yep. Go Audi !!!
[i]The same factors affect ICE cars just as much, if not more.[/i]
Quite possibly, they just appear to have a greater capability/capacity to cope with it
Quite possibly, they just appear to have a greater capability/capacity to cope with it
True. I considered driving to Scotland in my EV, but ended up taking the diesel instead. It could have been done in the EV but it would have taken a few hours extra. In the grand scheme of things, that's not that high a price to pay for cleaner air and lower CO2 emissions.
Winston - snow ice is the only time I use Eco mode, to kill the torque. And winter tyres.
It is the easiest, and cheapest car I've owned. The thought of owning a petrol engine makes me wince.
[i]It is the easiest, and cheapest car I’ve owned.[/i]
Same here. It has reduced to car to another household appliance. It takes no thought or interest toi use it and it just works. It is the automotive equivalent of a microwave.
In fact that is quite a good analogy.
When microwave ovens first came out there were evangelists saying the microwave replaced everything in the kitchen other than a can opener and you had scaremongers telling you they were the work of the devil and would kill you all
Nopw, most people have them and just use them where the are useful and use other tools for other tasks.
When microwave ovens first came out there were evangelists saying the microwave replaced everything in the kitchen other than a can opener and you had scaremongers telling you they were the work of the devil and would kill you all
Air Fryers are the new Microwave then (or even EV)
No!!! Air Fryers are evil. They will give you cancer and cat aids. Stick to the microwave - they can do anything!!!
😉
It has reduced to car to another household appliance. It takes no thought or interest to use it and it just works.
For most peoples use of cars, for most journeys this is exactly what is needed and what people want. For "fun" that's very different, and an ICE car is much more entertaining. I'd love something a bit rorty to go alongside the EV for occasional fun.
In the interest of science, I just nipped to the shops with all heating off before - the car has sat outside for over 24hrs and it’s zero dwg c out.
It’s a 3.7 mile round trip, with a 5-10 min stop half way.
Efficiency was 2.3mi/kw.hr which is way better than the 1.2 I’ve seen on the same round trip with heating on. 2.3 is about what I’m seeing on long runs with heating on in this weather, so it’s clear that the running the heating to warm the car up from cold has a pretty significant effect.
Isn’t one of the big pluses with EVs that you can use an app to set it to be warm and toasty before unplugging from the house and getting into it ?
@iainc - yes, it’s a lovely feature at this time of the year. My chilly trip was just an experiment to see how much effect heating the car has on cold weather efficiency.
Isn’t one of the big pluses with EVs that you can use an app to set it to be warm and toasty before unplugging from the house and getting into it ?
You can do that with an ICE as well if it has an aux heater.
Vauxhall ComboE for work here (so potential future bike van for someone when it's end of lease! (probably 5 or 7 years)
The official range is 170 miles with a 50kW battery, we are told to expect real life range of about 125 miles fully laden with a ladder roof rack.
I'm loving it, had it a few weeks and it tends to do 2.5-2.7m/kWh, though I reckon it would get towards 3m/kWh if I tried. 65mph long distance it does about half the indicated range, (I'm sure the range on an ICE car would also do this if you had reason to watch it) and town work up to 30mph including heavy congestion it's getting about 90% of the indicated range. I've hardly used Eco or turned the climate control off.
Fully charged indicated range has gradually dropped from 169 miles down to 150 over the last couple of weeks, inline with the temperature drop, quite happy with that...thought it might be worse.
I've topped it up twice whilst out and about on ultrafast chargers, I'm sure there will be occasions where it's inconvenient or I have to wait an hour to get on a charger but then again I'm driving something that's 80-90% efficient using electricity that in my case is 80% zero carbon, vs diesel that wastes over 50% of the energy (and petrol up to 80%) in waste heat/noise.
I’ve recently come back from Dubai where it was 35deg + I did wonder how running the aircon on full would effect battery.
from what people are saying above it wouldn’t use that much battery?
it’s clear that the running the heating to warm the car up from cold has a pretty significant effect.
Some cars have a heat pump for heating which is more efficient than a resistive heater. I'm fairly sure Hyundai have heat pumps as standard now but it's an option on VWs. Not sure about other brands.
For some ICE figures affected by the cold I drove the 5.5 litre V8 about 15 minutes to a shop and then back again both ways had the heated seats on max and the climate control set to 22 degrees. It was -1 when I started.
23.7mpg on the way there. The engine oil went from -2 (cooler than the external thermometer strangely) up to 85 in about the first 5 minutes by which time the car was nice and warm. I suspect the mpg for those first 5 minutes was dire and then closer to the return journey for the next 10 minutes.
32.4mpg for the return journey. Car still warm and so was I.
As you can see, it is considerably worse than the 45mpg achieved on the long cruise up to Manchester in the summer but I think on shorter journeys like this one, which was in reasonably heavy traffic (5pm) I would only be getting mid-30s anyway.
When my wife started this commute in September we were getting 5.2 or so, yesterday it averaged 4.5 in temps of about -2 or -3 in the morning and around 0 on the way home.
