[Closed] European Referendum...

It's a mystery to me how the uk manages to trade so much with the states what with us being outside of Nafta - we are also constantly told that we could not trade with eu member states from outside despite the fact the rest of the world manages to do this pretty well.

Don't hold your breath El-bent. Just listen to Merkel today. The Europeans are not (that) stupid and they know that they will lose in UK exits? It's facile to think that is would happen/they wpuld let this happen in isolation.

Some of those "Europeans" are stupid, namely us. We will blink first.

The UK is not the only member that has issues with the EU the way it is.
The end result may well be an EU where the wishes of Germany and France aren't the prevailing ones with the likes of Holland, Denmark and Sweden and us driving how far and fast Europe moves.

So, grantway, you quote costs from a clearly anti-EU site. How do you calculate the wider costs a d benefits of membership?

Or, for that matter, the wider costs and benefits of an exit?

It seems to me that the "net contributor" status is as polarised as the UK economy...
Many of the English regions, as well as areas of Wales, Scotland & NI are beneficiaries of EU funding. Do the financial justifications of the exit proponents include the UK sourced funding of the less economically productive areas of the UK?

Or are we back to my point about "little England" - London, the SE and other well off parts want out...

Nope. We pay our way, and Europe knows it.
27(?) members, 9 of which are nett contributors. We are the second highest nett contributor.
They want our money's and tell us how to run our affairs?
They can **** off.

Access to markets my Friend. We pay a small amount and as a result get to have free trade with 26 other member's, the majority of which we can provide the type of sophisticated services that a "Western" country requires.

"Run our affairs", do they? Perhaps this is a complaint that our Government both past and present have opted out of so much decision making, that it is perceived that they do. Don't look at them, look at ourselves. Always bitching from the sidelines.

Do the financial justifications of the exit proponents include the UK sourced funding of the less economically productive areas of the UK?

Yes. All subsidies are taken into account. Obviously nobody can measure exactly what the benefit is to trade so that cannot be calculated, we do need to stay in IMHO but we also need to be able to handle our own shit.

Access to markets my Friend. We pay a small amount and as a result get to have free trade with 26 other member's, the majority of which we can provide the type of sophisticated services that a "Western" country requires.

Absolutely. The message from the EU seems to be shut up, give us your money and do as we say. No thanks. We'll stay in, continue to contribute and in turn benefit from trade arrangements but make our own decisions on what we do within our borders thanks.

rkk01 - Member

Unbelievable

Lunacy

Cameron has just abdicated any credibility - not fit to govern.

This is a vote to break up the Union. There is no way that Scotland of Wales would stay OUT with England (NI & the Union being a different ball park)

Little England gone mad...

err, the Jocks are voting to leave the Union (and as a consequence the EU)

any independence vote by Wales would do the same

I'm sure they'll get good terms of membership when they reapply 😉

You may find that one of the key players in the EU over the next few will be Poland. It's economy is growing and healthy. I'm tending towards agreeing with El-bent, that we should be fully integrated.

Many of the English regions, as well as areas of Wales, Scotland & NI are beneficiaries of EU funding. Do the financial justifications of the exit proponents include the UK sourced funding of the less economically productive areas of the UK?

how do you know? the EU's accounts haven't been signed off by their internal auditors for well over 10 years, they don't even know where the money goes

Cent!
Hundert!
Ciento!
Céad!
Cem!
Honderd!
?????!
Sto!

You may find that one of the key players in the EU over the next few will be Poland. It's economy is growing and healthy.

all that money pumped in by the EU and expatriate workers is doing wonders

Yes. All subsidies are taken into account. Obviously nobody can measure exactly what the benefit is to trade so that cannot be calculated, we do need to stay in IMHO but we also need to be able to handle our own shit.

But that's the point - we don't manage our own shit. I fully accept the maths-draw a line around the UK an we're a net contributor, but the regional variations will give a different balance. If the UK wants to invest more strongly in the regions, then great. Whilst central London is more akin to NY, some of the places around here are more akin to Poland, Romania or even Albania (without offence etc)

I have the view that we should be in the Euro

Yeah - just look at all the benefits the countries who are in have got from being a part of that. Thankfully GB had a lot more sense than you do.

Oh, you want all the benefits of free trade etc, but none of that pesky "socialist" rules and regs stuff? Well you can **** off.

Strangely they don't appear to say that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

big n daft, my point was that I can't see Wales or Scotland wanting to remain part of the UK if the party of well off England wants to remove England from the UK.

I can't wait until all the Balkan states join up, let's just hope a bit more diligence is used when they run an eye over their accounts than they've managed in the past

But that's the point - we don't manage our own shit. I fully accept the maths-draw a line around the UK an we're a net contributor, but the regional variations will give a different balance.

Of course, but its all one economy. If the UK were to pull out [i]theoretically[/i] there would be more money to spend on the regions than they currently get from the EU. The reality may be vastly different though, as trade could be negatively affected, leaving less money. This is the bit nobody really knows.

rkk01 - Member

big n daft, my point was that I can't see Wales or Scotland wanting to remain part of the UK if the party of well off England wants to remove England from the UK

for the jocks it's a mute point, they can vote for independence, leave the Union and the EU before anyone in England even gets to vote in the general election never mind a referendum. The EU will force them to reapply as there are too many other regions in Europe which what self determination

the Welsh will not have much of a choice and UKIP is already polling 12% there so they may vote "no" anyway, if they manage to throw together an indepdendance campaign off the back of a EU in/out vote it's a circular argument as independance means leaving the EU and reapplying as it does for the Jocks

Yeah - just look at all the benefits the countries who are in have got from being a part of that. Thankfully GB had a lot more sense than you do.

Yeah, they believed in continuous growth and put their money into all sorts of schemes, us in poundland would never do such a thing...oh, hang on...

Strangely they don't appear to say that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

They don't. I merely translated it into "British" so people like you could understand.

leaving the EU means MORE red-tape when dealing with EU member states

why would we want to do that to ourselves in the middle of a global recession?

and of course ensuring that lorry drivers and doctors can work 48 hr shifts with no sleep is a great thing

I think we'd like to do a bit more imprisonment for questioning without that pesky ECHR sticking its nose into our affairs. And can we have bent bananas back please?

I heard we are getting cube shaped cucumbers. 10cmx10cmx10cm.
I mean, really; metric? FFS

What's a cm?

Is that some pesky continental measurement? Like croissants for breakfast?

Yep. The b'stards even measure stuffs different.
WTF is a crroissant? Sounds like a worm or sumfin.

If we leave the Eu does that mean we can get all Daily Mail and stem the flow of Eastern European immigrants ? I mean how many car washes do we need ?

@Big-n-daft - Poland is receiving the pump priming we received up until recently. Had the joy of 3 years working for an economic development QUANGO in the UK and saw the money pumped our way from the EU in the 90s, it was considerable, and a lot was wasted. Seems the Poles are using it a little better.
If they are using the taxable income of their nationals working overseas then all credit to them, we allow our ex-pats to earn tax free.

Reminds me...

When on a cycling holiday in Brittany. One of our hotels was, erm, a bit low budget and run by some Londoners. The girl on reception, fresh from somewhere here asked us, "In the morning, will you be wanting an Oriental breakfast?"

how any UK MTBer can slag off the EU is beyond me

http://www.7stanes.com/7stanes-history-c104.html

http://mbwales.com/en/content/cms/news/massive_new_trail_in/massive_new_trail_in.aspx

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/forestry/INFD-8BGRDE

weve done very well out of it!

Blimey, he may have pulled it off!!

Angela Merkel created a small breathing space for David Cameron on Wednesday when she gave a guarded response to his landmark speech on Europe, paving the way for the prime minister to campaign in favour of an in-out referendum on Britain's membership of the EU at the next election.

As most European leaders rejected Cameron's demands for a radical overhaul of the terms of Britain's EU membership, the German chancellor indicated she was open to negotiating a "fair compromise".

Source: [url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jan/23/eu-referendum-speech-merkel-cameron?CMP=twt_gu ]Gurniad[/url]

Much shrugging of shoulders in the French media and a feeling a vote will at least clarify the UK position in Europe. To paraphrase Europe 1 this morning. "They've had one foot in and one foot out for 40 years".

Waving my expired British passport I want in. The EU has enabled me to work where Ive wanted, trade as I've wished and prosper.

Waving my French passport I'm not much fussed. On a practical level it's stil a pain to visit the UK with its foreign currency and barmy immigration officials, and I can't see the ConLabLibs doing anything to restrict trade, just the rights of their own people.

Cameron has just abdicated any credibility - not fit to govern.

Dave ever had credibility? Who knew? His failure to deliver a parliamentary majority (against Gordon Brown FFS!), and subsequent poll ratings would suggest otherwise, in most peoples minds. And he knows it!

Cameron has just abdicated any credibility - not fit to govern.

I don't wholly disagree with this, but "red ed" Miliband also is not fit to govern and Clegg is a rent boy.
Who else is there?

I couldn't agree more Wrecker. Has democracy in this country ever looked as shabby and threadbare? Basically its a choice of having the contents of this huge shit sandwich we're going to force you to eat, on brown bread? Or white?

leaving the EU means MORE red-tape when dealing with EU member states

why would we want to do that to ourselves in the middle of a global recession?

We buy more from the EU than they buy from us.. do you think they are so naive as to put up trade barriers when the net beneficiary of the cross trade is them?

I'm waiting for you to demonstrate how democracy works in the EU and how the individuals votes effect the political direction it takes

I would ask you the same for the UK. Does dave give you a cal before acting or something?
Well I did mention some of the isues with our electoral system
Hereditary Lords - imagine EU commisioners by accident of birth
Hereditary head of state
No govt ever geting close to a majority of all votes cast
There was a result in the 70's iirc where a party won most seats but lost the popular vote [feb 74 but no parliamentary majority]- imagine if Europe did that
Imagine the frothing
Instead we hold ours up as a paragon and criticiise them when ours is far from perfect.
Most , if not all , of the criticisms of the democracy of Europe can be made against any democracy as they are flawed to some degree.

As for my vote it has the same amount of power over the EU as it does over CMD - ie almost nothing - as far as i know no seat let alone election has ever been decided by just one vote.
I just see it as vehicle for folk to air their view on Euro

Is it undemocratic - probably and probably just as much as we are.
I dont expect the sceptics to accept this argument tbh but neither system is "fair" or beyong criticism. its just one is ours and one is theirs

leaving the EU means MORE red-tape when dealing with EU member states

That must be why the non-EU members of the EEA are clamouring to join the EU. Oh hang on...

All the Euro-philes might look a little more credible on threads like this if they didn't try suggesting that not being in the EU would result in a huge difference in the way we trade with it.

do you think they are so naive as to put up trade barriers when the net beneficiary of the cross trade is them?

Do you know what the raison d'etre of the EU is?

Do you realy think we can be outside the Euro zone, not a partner to it and not be subject to tarrifs?
Given this why would anyone join as they can have the same benefits without actually harmonising
Really you think this could happen?

Do you know what the raison d'etre of the EU is?

Wasn't it to stop us all emptying millions and millions of tonnes of munitions on each other from planes?

Do you realy think we can be outside the Euro zone, not a partner to it and not be subject to tarrifs?

Yip! Because for a start, it'd be illegal. And trade wars benefit absolutely no-one. Have you not noticed recently the increasing popularity of a concept called 'globalisation'? Apparently it breaks down the barriers to international trade.

On what basis has Cameron abdicated any credibility and/or demonstrated a lack of fitness to govern?

What happened yesterday? He pointed out three core issues that are facing Europe yesterday and warned that failing to address these issues would create various problems. He then highlighted five clear standards against which the structure and possible reforms of the EU should be judged. This all seems pretty credible to me and showing more fitness for government that many other current leaders. And then, he turned the question over to the population to choose - and this is greeted with complaints over democracy! All very odd?

So what is a minority/coalition government meant to do? Remain impotent? Make no decisions? Implement policy paralysis? It's not really fair to throw the notion that he (or the coalition) shouldn't do things merely because his party did not win an outright majority. Especially when the policy is leading to a referendum which other leaders are...er, you decide? Hard to see what they we saying yesterday.

So the most obvious criticism is the "uncertainty" one. Fair point, but isn't this lesser to two evils? The crisis affecting EU nations states and the failures of the current structure to deal with them are an even greater source of uncertainty preventing confidence returning to most parts of the economy. Picking the proverbial can up, is more preferable than merely kicking it down the road, which is what most politicians have been doing.

And the reaction in Europe, especially, the immediate split between the dog and the tail. And the dog gets it straight away and recognises legitimate areas of change and compromise from the off.The tail does a little bit of harmless wagging.

So on that scorecard, credibility enhanced (tick), fit to govern (tick), now they just need to get the policy mix correct (still a big cross)!

That must be why the non-EU members of the EEA are clamouring to join the EU. Oh hang on...

of the 7 who joined it 5 applied for full EU membership - 3 joined and two rejected it in a referendum and 2 never tried.
In the same time the EU has expanded from 12 to 27 members with some more still aplying
Not a conclusive proof of your view as its popular with some and not with others.
those left in the EEA is a club of those who dont want to join but want to trade so of course they dont want to join.

PS even if what you say ids true that does not prove that red tape wont increase either - it has nothing to say on that issue - and you want top criticise others for their argument style

All the Euro-philes might look a little more credible on threads like this if they didn't try suggesting that not being in the EU would result in a huge difference in the way we trade with it

I cannot believe anyone on either side thinks there will not be large changes as a result of this.

Large and necessary changes are what everyone is hoping for JY!!!

I cannot believe anyone on either side thinks there will not be large changes as a result of this.

Erm... isn't that the whole point?

"GOOD on David Cameron. He has finally listened to public opinion and agreed to seek a better, renegotiated EU membership deal for the UK. Nobody born after 1957 in the UK has ever had a chance to say what they think of an organisation that controls more of UK public policy than ever before.

Of course, the details of the prime minister’s proposed course of action are not perfect, and all of this could yet come to nothing as the referendum is due to take place after the next election, which Labour will probably win, but this is nevertheless a hugely important moment. Cameron deserves to be congratulated for his courage. He wants to stay in the EU; but understands that without significant repatriation of powers the public will eventually lose patience.

Those who believe in free trade and open markets should not fear this referendum. The business community is divided on the EU, unlike in the 1970s when it almost universally backed joining the common market. Now many, especially smaller firms but also plenty of large ones, support a looser arrangement; they realise that the EU is in terminal decline as a market and resent the endless stream of damaging, job-destroying rules, with Solvency II for insurers merely the latest in an extraordinarily long list.

In the 1970s and early 1980s, it was possible to portray the EU as a liberalising, anti-communist force; these days, it is primarily an engine of anti-democratic corporatism and social democracy, with some important pro-individual freedom elements drowned out by state-building.

It is sad that most banks remain in favour of the status quo, which in reality means progressively greater centralisation. They have got this terribly wrong. Yet business as a whole, like British society is divided; most want to stay in some much looser relationship, if it is possible to negotiate one. That’s also clearly Cameron’s position, though it remains to be seen what he exactly has in mind, and what he is able to negotiate.

A referendum will create uncertainty. But so does holding general elections or referenda on Scottish independence, events which are generally backed by opponents of this particular referendum. Big City firms have got their priorities wrong: the prospect of the Labour party winning the next election and imposing 75 per cent tax rates on bonuses, or the possibility of the EU capping them in an unworkable way, are much greater threats to their business models. Car companies should spend more time worrying about energy regulations or a further collapse in demand for their products caused by the dysfunctional euro. It is strange that these firms – many of which have gone begging for handouts in recent years – are so vocal about opposing any repatriation of political powers to the UK – but so quiet on other issues of far greater relevance to their prospects.

There is a parallel with the 50p tax rate. Supporters (a group which overlaps with pro-EU integrationists) argued it would have no impact on where business chose to locate; London’s pool of talent, language, restaurants and culture would supposedly be enough to keep everybody here. Yet now, suddenly, none of these matter: business is about to run away because of the EU question. These people need to make up their minds.

Above all, the City and business must stop scaremongering. They should focus on getting the right kind of renegotiation which preserves trade and essential freedoms but liberates us of unnecessary interference. If they don’t engage in this debate in a constructive manner, they will have only themselves to blame if they don’t like the final outcome."

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2013/0124/1224329225295.html

Interesting opinion from Mr. Sutherland.

Wasn't it to stop us all emptying millions and millions of tonnes of munitions on each other from planes?

Farmers protection surely 😉

Do you realy think we can be outside the Euro zone, not a partner to it and not be subject to tarrifs?

Yip! Because for a start, it'd be illegal.

Have you not googled Eu tarrifs?
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&tbo=d&spell=1&q=eu+tariffs&sa=X&ei=agUBUcmaMYSXhQeVm4HICQ&ved=0CCwQvwUoAA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41248874,d.d2k&fp=287e96e52b4ce49e&biw=960&bih=479
Not bought any bling bike bits or cheap lights from the US and noticed the Import taxes/tarrif?

They seem to not be illegal and we would not need a "single market" as the globe would be one

On what basis has Cameron abdicated any credibility and/or demonstrated a lack of fitness to govern?

The bit where he pandered to the closet racists and what Major called the Bastards in order to get elected?
I feel for him he has no choice but to do this but he is clearly a pro European.
One of the travesty of politics and focus group politics is we dont have leaders anymore we have followers of public opinion - i include all parties in that and agree Blair escalated this to the levels we now see.
He lost credibility as he kissed the rears of UKIP Tories in order to get elected even though he clearly finds them to be odious - as I said he has no choice really but its not admirable.

This all seems pretty credible to me and showing more fitness for government that many other current leaders.

Halo of impartiality is starting to slip and turn blue- not that anyone doubted this

And then, he turned the question over to the population to choose - and this is greeted with complaints over democracy! All very odd?

Remind me how he voted recently on whether to have an in or out vote? 2011 iirc - Binners left wing role model mentioned it parliament@ PMQ's

The crisis affecting EU nations states and the failures of the current structure to deal with them are an even greater source of uncertainty preventing confidence returning to most parts of the economy.

The crises we seem to have stopped reading of this as they seem to have shown the political and economic will to back the currency no matter what. They seem to have dealt with it - never ever to your satisfaction and greater integration is clearly going to happen. Not sure how they could have been more certain to be honest and here you are priasing CMD for his lets decide in a bit "certainity" policy

The EU does make everyone who opposes it loose some sort of rationality

I find the arguments put fwd to be largely emmotive and factually innacurate coupled with words like CRISIS etc

No idea why the EU does this to folk tbh

And the reaction in Europe, especially, the immediate split between the dog and the tail. And the dog gets it straight away and recognises legitimate areas of change and compromise from the off.The tail does a little bit of harmless wagging.

Nope lost me there
What I heard was someone saying the UK joined a football team and now we want them all to play Rugby.
Not sure how the bringmanship will play out tbh but he is playing a dangerous game

The main folk want us to stay but not at any price.

Thanks for posting that as an interesting perspective.But I am uncertain why a former EU commissioner would prefer uncertainty to uncertainty? And this comes from the perfect case study - Ireland.

C'mon JY. Closets racists, going back to Major. Those are not arguments. And the crisis - are you serious? Eurostat published the latest debt figures yesterday, not good reading. Unemployment in the PIGS, Spain, Italy.....And Davos yesterday the IMF downgrades the outlook for the euro area forecasting further contraction in 2013. And this is not a crisis?