[Closed] European Referendum...

Binners earlier.

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It always amuses me listening to full on lefties like yourself defending possibly the most democratically unaccountable organisation outside North Korea

FFS Binners this is hyperbole that even Zulu has not reached

I really dont know how the european issue does this to folk but you cannot really debate it with someone who say stuff like that.

I have defended nothing I have just stared in incredulity at the reaction of some to Europe.

PS Perhaps if it had members who have had a place for 400 years simply by birth to the right family + and then we added in the state church and an unelected heridatry head of state you would find it more democratic and less North korean? 😕

left-wingers arguing for a system that forces massive reductions in the wages of its citizens under terms (and sometimes power) of non-elected technocrats!!

Enjoy yourself in a Mail styleee mash up of OTT ranting

and, importantly - they don't want us out either!

thing is if you have say a car factory in the UK and one in Poland, as everyone knows there is massive over supply which plant do you close?

The one that is in the EU or the one your not sure about. What happens to Ex-Pats and reciprocal arrangements, EHIC etc etc. What about all the Pole's etc who are now working in the UK?

There is a huge number of little details that need to be considered.

Yes the EU needs to be reformed but you have to wonder why no one has done it yet?

I don't think Mikey74 should be allowed to vote on difficult and complex issues. The rest of us should be treated like adults.

Ah yes... the oh-so-predictable 'if you're opposed to Europe, You're a foaming-at-the-mouth Daily Mail editorial writer' defense

Its nowt to do with left or right - as would be discovered if you gauged the enthusiasm of much of the labour party. Its about democratic accountability, rudimentary competence, and endemic corruption. Simple really.

And you didn't answer the question. Just to repeat:

In which European countries do you presently think that a vote would deliver a ringing endorsement of the present EU structure? Just who is benefiting from the whole farcical existing system? Enough to say anything positive about it?

thing is if you have say a car factory in the UK and one in Poland, as everyone knows there is massive over supply which plant do you close?

That argument works both ways though, Europe is currently a declining marketplace, you may well be better placing your high-tech manufacturing in a country that focuses on its existing trade relationships with up and coming commonwealth nations like India, Canada and Australia (see rolls royce aero engines and Land Rover as examples)

Whilst just under half of UK foreign trade is with the Eurozone, that still leaves more than half that is to other countries.

The Scottish aren't going to vote for independence. They've more sense. Turkeys voting for Christmas. Us leaving the EU. That ain't going to happen either. For the same reason

But .........

The Scots are quite pro EU, not sure how much so but I would have thought certainly more than the English on the whole.
Now, lets say there's a good few Scots that are pro EU but anti independence but not strongly.
Come 2014, they'll have to decide between a Scotland that will do all it can to be in the EU or a UK that may decide to ditch the EU in a couple of years.Those marginal votes may swing the independence vote.
The knock-on would then be that with so many pro EU votes now effectively gone, the rest of the UK may well now have a similar majority of anti EU voters.

Now, I'll admit that's a bit of a 'perfect storm' type of scenario but you never know.

The bottom line is that Cameron's pledge to hold a referendum post 2015 will affect how some Scots vote in the independence referendum and they'll have to do it before they know if the Tories will be re-elected at Westminster or not. How the Scots vote will then have a direct outcome on the result of the EU referendum, should it happen.

the oh-so-predictable 'if you're opposed to Europe, You're a foaming-at-the-mouth Daily Mail editorial writer' defense

pointless posturing to appease the right wingers in the party and ukip defecting voters

I think people just get more xenophobic as they get older for some reason

Its nowt to do with left or right

Dead right.
The last time we had a vaguely Left wing Labour Party, they voted against it. I agreed with what they said then and I still do

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/26/newsid_2503000/2503155.stm

I don't think Mikey74 should be allowed to vote on difficult and complex issues. The rest of us should be treated like adults.

So you think the average voter understands all the complexities of being part of the European Union do you? Perhaps you shouldn't be treated as an adult either.

Most voters don't understand how our own economy works, let alone an organisation such as the EU.

In which European countries do you presently think that a vote would deliver a ringing endorsement of the present EU structure? Just who is benefiting from the whole farcical existing system? Enough to say anything positive about it?

youd get the same answer if you asked about satisfaction of every country with their own governments

everyone hates politicians and johnny foreigner ones even more so

But that is an argument for scrapping voting for all but the intelligent elite.

You Mark my words JY - Angela Merkal is half way too.....

🙂

what you really want to argue that the North Korea statement was not OTT and that you are your usual rational self on this issue

I'm waiting for you to demonstrate how democracy works in the EU and how the individuals votes effect the political direction it takes

based on the diversity of opinion

Most [s]voters[/s] [b]economists [/b]don't understand how our own economy works, let alone an organisation such as the EU.

FIFY 😉

[i]Most voters don't understand [s]how our own economy works[/s][b]when to use fog lights[/b], let alone an organisation such as the EU. [/i]

I don't mind trading with Europe and being a Trading Partner but apart from that I don't think we should stay as we are. Too many fat cats EMPs etc making stupid decisions.
IMHO 🙂

I'm waiting for you to demonstrate how democracy works in the EU and how the individuals votes effect the political direction it takes

Well, you vote for an MP, who forms part of a government, which then negotiates with the other EU governments when naming the members of the commission. Not ideal, not a perfect democracy, but nothing like North Korea.

Well, you vote for an MP, who forms part of a government, which then negotiates with the other EU governments when naming the members of the commission. Not ideal, not a perfect democracy, but nothing like North Korea.

what do MEP's do?

is the Commission the only body in the EU that makes legislation?

The thing with the EU is that we elect loads of MEP's, yet not one of these democratically elected, money sucking time-servers is actually responsible for making any proposals, or decisions. That's all done by faceless people on the commission, who've never been anywhere near a ballot box, and are answerable to nobody!

Hence the present shambles!

Its certainly serving someones interests very effectively. But not the electorates of Europe, that's for sure!

The thing with the EU is that we elect loads of MEP's, yet not one of these democratically elected, money sucking time-servers is actually responsible for making any proposals, or decisions. That's all done by faceless people on the commission, who've never been anywhere near a ballot box, and are answerable to nobody!

I agree, MEPs should have more power. But the governments (yes, those democratically elected governments) won't give them any. As is MEPs are a waste of time and money, and that's without considering the gross stupidity of having two parliament buildings.

Not ideal, not a perfect democracy, but nothing like North Korea.

Yeah, but y'know, 'tis only a step away isn't it?

Yeah, but y'know, 'tis only a step away isn't it?

Goose, presumably.

Goose, presumably.

😀 Very good.

Anyway, what I want to know is: Should I start applying for Spanish nationality, just in case?

That's a point; I'm eligible for Irish nationality so I can stay in the EU anyway if Blighty jumps ship. So I can, to be sure.

UKIP are set to hurt the tories badly in a lot of constituencies they need to win to retain power. Given that UKIP can never offer anything meaningful beyond a protest vote over Europe, this is something tangible to drag those voters back to the conservatives.

Cameron also believes he can wrest some concessions from the likes of Merkel, which will give him something to wave while recommending a 'yes' vote.

It's potentially a very smart move. Now watch it unravel in typical Cameron style.

martinhutch +1

It's potentially a very smart move. Now watch it unravel in typical Cameron style.

Indeed. As much as trying to usurp UKIP, he's trying to placate his own rabid right-wing, swivel-eyed backbenchers. But as John Major could have told him, they can't be placated. On account of being absolutely mental!!

Junkyard - Member
Massive reductions - it forces them - can you cite the [b]legislation[/b]

Legislation!?! JY, I know the juxtaposition of (perceived) political persuasions on here may be a bit confusing, but its not that long since you did Economics. 😉 It is nothing to do with legislation. If you have a fixed exchange rate and you are cost-uncompetitive, the only adjustments that can be made are lower wages and/or higher levels of unemployment. S Europe is encountering appalling levels of both especially among the young and lower-income groups. How can those with left-wing sympathies support such an absurd system?

Blimey, Tony Blair really was silly enough to compare DC's speech with the words of Bart in Blazing Saddles!! At least, [i]The Guardian[/i] edited the text to make it acceptable to today's readers:

Blair told BBC Radio 4's The World at One: "It reminds me a bit of the Mel Brooks comedy Blazing Saddles where the sheriff says at one point as he holds a gun to his own head: 'If you don't do what I want I'll blow my brains out.' You want to watch out that one of the 26 [other EU member states] doesn't just say: 'OK, go ahead.'"

Its hard to imagine picking a more inappropriate analogy (at least in its original version).

You are joking - TB used the n-word on national radio?

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In the words of the Guardian:

[i]I suspect he's referring to a scene where the sheriff (played by Cleavon Little) does point a gun to his own head and threaten himself, it is in fact a brilliantly funny manoeuvre to allow him to allow him to escape from the racist townspeople who are about to lynch him. So if Blair is comparing Cameron to Little, what he is actually suggesting is, as Little says at the end of the scene: "Ooh, baby, you are so talented! And they are so dumb!"[/i]

Sorry, I think he edited himself, I mis-wrote it! It was reported in [i]The Guardian[/i]. But still an odd choice of analogy!!

Oh I don't know. I reckon Dave will get a similar warm welcome in Brussels as the citizens of Rockridge reserved for Sheriff Bart.

Maybe he could use Eric Pickles as an improvised Mongo....

😆

I will lose my line of work if we leave. I will be voting to stay.

Do you import Toblarone?

This is a brilliant programme about why Europe behaves as it does, parts of history that we have put to bed is still very raw in some areas and guides their thinking, as do more recent events. Made me think hard about my personal position on the EU.

It's 38 mins well spent IMO: [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01p9l5f ]clicky linky[/url]

[i]Do you import Toblarone? [/i]

Would you believe that my ex used to do (and I think still does) just that? And Dime bars 🙂

Unbelievable

Lunacy

Cameron has just abdicated any credibility - not fit to govern.

This is a vote to break up the Union. There is no way that Scotland of Wales would stay OUT with England (NI & the Union being a different ball park)

Little England gone mad...

As someone who is pro EU, I have the view that we should be in the Euro, in banking union...in all the way, because that's the only place where we can fight our corner. Instead, we just bitch from the sidelines while Europe continues on regardless, and after CMD has his way, even less say in the laws and rules made that we would still have to follow.

I'm looking forward to the day when the rest of the EU gives us two options:

1: Stay in the EU, with all the economic benefits, but all the rules and regs that go along with belonging to such a club,

2: Oh, you want all the benefits of free trade etc, but none of that pesky "socialist" rules and regs stuff? Well you can **** off.

I hear in 2008 the total cost for that year direct costs and indirect costs came to 65Billion pounds
Just what did we get for that contribution.

[url= http://www.democracymovementsurrey.co.uk/dyk_eucosts.html ]European costs to UK[/url]

But in saying that is it was obviously said today that was countries within the European union
bothered if we was not in it and most said no.
With the obvious threat for trade But if we do opt out EU will certainly miss the huge sums of money
we give each year in to what we get back as EU aid.

Don't hold your breath El-bent. Just listen to Merkel today. The Europeans are not (that) stupid and they know that they will lose in UK exits? It's facile to think that is would happen/they wpuld let this happen in isolation.

: Oh, you want all the benefits of free trade etc

This was available to everyone years ago before the €uro

2: Oh, you want all the benefits of free trade etc, but none of that pesky "socialist" rules and regs stuff? Well you can * off.