Forum menu
“Oh, but it is.”
No, it really isn’t. Labour (if you can call them that back then) were last in power in 2010. It’s not their fault hamfeatures was too chickenshit to get his party in line, just as it’s not their fault May has less backbone than an amoeba.
No cameron’s ego, no referendum, no Brexit
You can pretend none of this is on Labour at all, if you wish.
Feel free to address some of the points in my post, if you have strong opinions about Labour's role as regards Brexit.
Kelvin - as well as, much better!
Labour’s position is a clear as the Tories. The only difference if one party had the responsibility to execute the result of the democratic process. It takes some extreme political myopia to present Brexshit as a Tory issue. That this is what happens, is however, unsurprising
Thanks for the quotes TJ. How many UK banks already have subsidiaries in Europe that will give them full passporting rights? All but two and they are setting them up even the one that is essentially a domestic bank. What happens to EU banks with operations in the U.K. in the full colour not the monochrome world?
No one had ruled out equivalence and there remains a possibility that passporting will continue in some form. Why? Because that is in both sides best interests. Unlike some, I UK banks got on with it a long time ago which is why CEO of Barclays claims that he is far far more bigger concerns. So time to blow away the froth
“You can pretend none of this is on Labour at all, if you wish.”
And you can pretend that Jeremy Corbyn personally held a gun to the heads of every voter to make them vote leave.
See, we can both do hyperbole.
Fact remains, Cameron took a gamble with the nation for purely self-serving reasons and lost. The fact also remains that neither labour as a whole nor Jeremy Corbyn made him do it.
Your move.
Labour are also split if nowhere near a badly as the Tories. It is an issue for sure which has made it tricky for labour to produce a position that would satisfy everyone in the party. However while the tories make a huge mess of it and while Labur are not in power all Labour has to do is sit back and watch the tories implode.
Labours position has become more refined and work is underway to refine it further. Looks like a Norway style solution is what they are going to plump for
Your move.
Waiting for you to address some (any) of my points as regards Labour's role in the referendum, and failure to act as an effective official opposition since.
Did the presence of Labour MPs in the Leave campaign make a difference? Don't forget how close the vote was in the end.
When did Corbyn last question May about her handling of Brexit at PMQs?
Zokes - the friend of democracy. Does letting the people have a say in their future terrify you that much - even from Aus?
but you are being unfair on Labour. They are going to deliver a very different Brexshit. A jobs first version don’t you know. Hurrah
It’s a simple question: did Jeremy Corbyn force David Cameron to hold the referendum?
You can try as much whataboutery as you like, but the root cause remains
That is a very simple question… I'm not sure the answer accounts for what Labour have done since the referendum was called though.
But what is the answer?
The referendum was called because the Conservative party has been at war with itself over the EU for years. How does that answer any of my questions around the role of Labour politicians during the referendum campaign, and since?
Did CMD campaign for leave?
What was the root cause? More people voted to leave than to remain. Inconvenient as facts are. Still blame it on Dave. How dare the great unwashed have a say.
It’s immaterial. No referendum, no behaviour during or since.
Look, I’m inclined to agree in many respects with your argument, Kelvin. But as I said in my own post, I can also understand the party political benefit for remaining opaque at this stage. Let the Tories destroy themselves, let it become ever increasingly apparent to all apart from hurty, Jamby and ninfan just how damaging Brexit will be, then clarify the party’s position when the time is right.
Keeping your powder dry is a well known phrase for a reason, and is very apt here.
Cameron was one of the Leave campaign's biggest assets… he was also responsible for the "what you have now, or the contents of this box" referendum, held using the rules for an advisory referendum, but treated as an instructional one… and then pissed off! No single person is more responsible for where we are now.
All those non Tory leavers being led by the nose by Dave!! No really.
Compare the efforts - good or otherwise - made by the party leaders to prevent Brexshit then revert
Very amusing… the tribal blindness of both of you.
Kelvin take a look at Corbyn, it need nit be a long or a hard look to see what a huge contribution he made to Vote Leave. Then look at the map of the country and voting .. it was the Midlands and North that won it for Leave. Wales voted Leave.
BNP Oops interesting (would add that red faced smiley but nothing works here any ore). Well they are wasting their time and money imo 🙂
My personal view is labour should have taken a much tougher line and been leaders not followers ie Burnham is a classic example of this - Remainer, understands the importance of remaining but so scared of anti eu propaganda and its effects in the north of England that he remained only on the fence and indeed in his campaign for Manchester Mayor descended into racism
Labour has lost its way and lost its ability to lead.
POeople Like Hoey should have been kicked out for sharing a platform with Farage, Burnham should have been brought into line.
“Very amusing… the tribal blindness of both of you”
So is your insistence to disagree with someone who is by and large agreeing with the sentiments of your argument
Dave hoodwinking the great British public
we will ask the British people whether they want to stay in on this basis, or leave. We will honour the result of the referendum, whatever the outcome
how very dare he
Yes, he treated it as instructional, but the referendum bill was only passed by parliament in its form because it was for an advisory referendum.
We've done all this to death.
And you still cannae accept the democratic process
[ removed - pointless feeding of the troll feedback loop ]
You’ve only just noticed?
He's just very good at it Zokes.
I think it fills a hole in his life
Given how THM destroyed any vestige of credibility by being unable to back up his assertions in any way when pressed especially his insistence that he knew the Tories end aim / preferred outcome in all this he has merely become a figure of fun / source of irritation. Thanks to Aracer I have the killfile back so ignoring him is easy. All his assertions have been proven wrong with evidence while he is able to provide no evidence for his position.
Kilfile not working very well Tj - wish it was
But you are correct that in moaner world my assertations do not fit well
1. We have had a democratic process - boo hiss, the proletariat had a say
2. Both major parties fought a general election on the basis of respecting the vote - we can see the results versus the party that didn't
3. The economy has not collapsed as our side predicted, indeed we are now upgrading economic growth and the labour market remains strong
4. You kindly disproved the false stories about the NHS - thanks
5. Ditto Tories and Canada plus, plus - thanks ^2
6. There has been no mass exodus of bankers nor a collapse in trading nor has the UK ruled out equivalence indeed the concept is central to many aspects of the trade negotiations
7. We are negotiating a trade deal contrary to your idea that this couldn’t happen
8. Ditto passing phase 1
9. The Eu is increasingly divided on how to handle Brexshit
10. Inconvenient facts are just that - inconvenient
[11 a simple google gives links to the trade options, the UK position and the challenges it’s very easy to keep abreast of things if one makes a very slight effort {
If you're using a killfile, don't switch it off to read that load of empty nonsense.
Indeed better than expected economic growth and jobs is empty nonsense. The surreal world of remainers who can’t stop complaining.
I didn't bother. The jury is back and the verdict is " piffle with nonsense elements"
We are trying to negotiate a trade deal (complain/backstab) then we get what we are offered. Any attempt to backtrack on the 3 key deliverables from phase 1 makes the deal null and void
A divided EU is a very bad thing for the UK as it needs a majority to accept the deal offered for the UK to get it.
You missed “self-important twaddle” 😀
😀
So mike - the EU end up with the UK delivering a hard Brexshit. What do they say about being careful what you wish for?
To which the EU will probably muster a Gallic shrug, if they can be bothered.
I'm not trying to make your ramblings coherent just point out some flaws in your positives list.
UK is over the barrel here.
Indeed zokes the health of the UK economy has no bearing on EU - what was the word? Twaddle?
Where did I say that?
This is great stuff. Keep it going.
Freedom for Yorkshire!
'Given how THM destroyed any vestige of credibility by being unable to back up his assertions in any way when pressed especially his insistence that he knew the Tories end aim / preferred outcome in all this he has merely become a figure of fun / source of irritation. Thanks to Aracer I have the killfile back so ignoring him is easy. All his assertions have been proven wrong with evidence while he is able to provide no evidence for his position.'
and for all your protestations it's an open sore you keep prodding.
if you're going to use the killfile ( and i strongly suggest you do ), i would suggest you also refrain from commenting on comments from THM that may also be brought out by others, as it is even more pointless referring to these without the context.
not that context adds very much, or he's saying anything new, but you know...
where's this quote button of which people speak?
So mike – the EU end up with the UK delivering a hard Brexshit. What do they say about being careful what you wish for?
which makes everyone happy, Legatum gets to vulture strip the UK, the EU gets the Japanese companies to relocate and make money. Various Tories get to make more money from their offshore funds etc. Obviously you saw that Mitsubishi have announced their partial relocation?
Everyone's a winner unless you happen to live and work in the UK.
if you’re going to use the killfile ( and i strongly suggest you do ), i would suggest you also refrain from commenting on comments from THM that may also be brought out by others,
This plus lots. It's really, really boring 🙁
Remember THM has written a 138 page report about this.
Those really will be some very well informed 12 year olds.
I don’t think copying and pasting from MS Encarta then changing the font really counts any more