[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

come on some examples TurnerGuy....

of what ?

give some examples of things that were wrong that had prospect of being fixed.

look at the number of times we lost any vote within the EU compared to every other member state. Checkw will have posted this information earlier in the thread.

And how do you think a refusal by a Tory Government will be perceived up here? I can see it now, the settled will of the Scottish people was more in favour of staying in the EU than the UK... 🙂 I would also assume you lot wouldn't be daft enough to cut your ears off to match your nose and a trade agreement with a newly Indy Scotland would be installed. Which would give back door access to English markets and make Scotland attractive to the EU( serious point,and I bow to your superior knowledge of finance and trade machinations here). Still; admitting that the stay campaign up here was negative is a sea change for you,so well done,although marks off for point 5. Again;[b] I want the SNP to play the long game,[/b] but I am 100% convinced that leaving the EU(and it looks very likely it will happen) will lead to Scottish independence.On your point 5, better than you have called the EU so very,very wrong as the noises coming from the continent in the last 24 hours would suggest. Membership for Scotland would be a big middle finger to your country.

Checkw will have posted this information earlier in the thread

I wonder how many Brexiters woke up like this today

of what ?

give some examples of things that were wrong that had prospect of being fixed.

Again it's really up to those telling us that it's a problem to say what was actually the problem, there must be list after list of these major issues and reasons the UK has been held back being a member of the EU.

The next big issue/challenge is to stop a complete purge of anything the EU touched, there is some really good regulation in there that works to protect workers etc. that I'm guessing (hell why not everyone else is) the likes of Gove and BoJo are keen to get shot of all in the name of reducing red tape/making britian GREAT again.

nts to keep scotland they need to come up with a solution that allows scotland to exist in both the EU and the UK. If that's not possible tatty bye, their case is piss poor, it's 1000 times worse that the scottish out vote in 2014.

A Scots EU free trade zone within the UK would be fantastic for Scotland, their jobs and their economy certainly but also culturally.
If the SNP could pull it off, and I think on balance they probably couldn't - which isn't a reason not to try.

number of times we lost any vote

Something like 50-70 out of 2500 wasn't it?

Over what timescale?
Just that £10,000,000,000 is more than we get back each year and I'd like to keep it factual.

€8.8bn in research funding in 2007-2013, ( we invested 5.4) As grants run for 3 to 7years (if you're re lucky) twice as much as the next best, Germany gets
I expect the current grant cycle we are in now to be similar
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36622842

Anyway Newsnight last night was amazing

The report from Burnley? Was very relevant, the 70% success of VL there tapped into the left behind feeling and that was directed at immigrantion and the elites who'd allowed it, the VLer was trying to talk about sovereignty but it was all about 'send them back'

The 2nd part with the 1 woman campaign in her Street yeah she wanted immigration down but she was absolutely saving THE NHS by stopping money going to Brussels

So Hannon then tells Evan Davis nope we won't be reducing immigrant numbers, pushed and pushed he sat there and repeated himself

Then the VL Tory woman saying over, nope we don't have 350m for the NHS that was just a suggestion when we wrote it giant on a bus and showed it all over the country!

Wow, what an 'interesting' 24 hrs it's been. I voted remain to avoid this level of uncertainty. I came to the conclusion that the real benefits of 'having control' were probably minor and will take some time and uncertainty to achieve those minor benefits - so why bother. I was hoping for a slim remain result to help us in our task of trying to achieve further reforms within the EU as i'm against the 'ever closer union' objective of the EU.

So here we are facing this uncertainty and apparent chaos. I have no idea how it's going to play out. However it is easy to allow yourself to descend into a pit of despair, but that isn't going to help anybody.

However what has actually changed? The UK is the 4th biggest economy in the world for one reason - because we offer skills, products and services the rest of the world wants. It's basic commerce. That won't change. The EU has made it easier for us to deal with the EU over the years and it is important to re-define our agreements with the EU to maintain the trade status quo and it will mean retaining freedom of movement (I always thought that the immigration argument was a red herring). There is no other way it can be and our resulting agreements and relationship with the EU will of course be key to the long term impact of this.

Trading with the rest of the world - which is a growing part of our trading as our trade with the EU diminishes and has been for years, will continue and now we're not in the EU we are free to negotiate our own trade agreements or just stick with trading with them as we currently do today.

So things are going to be uncertain unfortunately.

Ultimately this whole thing is an F-up of UK and European democracy 20 years in the making. What did people and politicians really think would happen if you ignore and discard millions of people with their own views and opinions and exclude them from the democratic process rather than doing the democratic thing and engaging with them in free and open debate and deal with people opinions and address them - change their minds rather than just ignoring them and calling them racists. For me this is the big shame of this - the breakdown of democracy and has lead directly to this result which is basically a two fingers up at the establishment for alot of the people who voted Leave - not all, but alot that obviously swayed the result.

But for now all we can do is turn up to work and crack on as normal. I know the company where I work still has the same customers, same orders, same contractual commitments, the same suppliers etc and that is not going to change any time soon - and i'm sure that is the same for the vast majority of businesses and companies up and down the country. Hopefully we'll get to some amicable eagreement with the EU in a matter of months and not years and we won't start tearing ourselves apart any time soon creating yet further chaos and uncertainty that will benefit nobody, then we'll all know where we stand and crack on.

The impact of this is not just UK wide - it's EU wide (it's a bigger shock for them than for us) and indeed global. Now we are where we are (hate that term) we have a responsibility to make the right decisions going forward.

However what has actually changed? The UK is the 4th biggest economy in the world for one reason -

Again it's really up to those telling us that it's a problem to say what was actually the problem, there must be list after list of these major issues and reasons the UK has been held back being a member of the EU.

there was a list of changes that Cameron took to the EU a while ago, most of which got refused.

Side-note: Is this the longest STW thread ever?

I see East Anglia had some of the highest support for leave, I imagine in part due to high levels of EU immigration for agricultural jobs.

As time goes on under tightened immigration levels and staff turn around then more fruit picking jobs will become available for UK citizens. Will be interesting to see how these jobs are taken up.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-negotiations-qa-what-are-david-camerons-demands-what-happens-next-a6848646.html
These ones? How are they stopping people making the UK awesome? Really it's simple what would will we do now that we were not doing then?

Immigration will not reduce. That was a big fat lie. Your apples and pears are safe in the hands of immigrants.

Mike - we sunk to 8th during the '08 recession I think. But my point is still the same - we're one of the worlds biggest economies and the things that got us there are still intact.

I'm just trying to take all the emotion and despair out of this. In business decisions are made objectively but people are understandably currently in a state of shock - we all are, and for the first time in our lives the established order of things has been disrupted. It's unprecedented. It'll be one of those things we will talk about to our grand kids when we're old and grey (assuming you're not already) about when one day we woke up and the world had fundamentally changed. But this will be dealt with by governments and industry making clear objective decisions for our mutual benefit - and that process has not been disrupted. We'll continue on largely unaffected for now - yes the economic measures will go up and down as they always do. However clearly our negotiation with the EU will matter and the sooner they're completed the better.

this will be dealt with by governments and industry making clear objective decisions for our mutual benefit - and that process has not been disrupted

THe later will clearly make decisions in the their or their shareholders self interests. Businesses are many things but concerned with the greater good is not amongst them

Your faith in the EU and the UK to play nicely together is admirable but i think ultimately misplaced as what is best for both is two different things with very little common ground

Its hard to see a compromise solution though the EU does excel in fudges and I will be surprised if we have anything before the next election. We want access to their market they are only offering it if you essentially stay in the EU and we just voted to not to do that
What do you think the compromise position is?
I dont see it personally.

Yes trying to take emotion out of it, in the end I feel the ones who will hurt the most are those that were taken in by it all.
Over the next few months we will see the sealed plans coming out for some big business, things like when a new car model is due to be built etc.

But this will be dealt with by governments and industry making clear objective decisions for our mutual benefit - and that process has not been disrupted.

TurnerGuy - Member
look at the number of times we lost any vote within the EU compared to every other member state. Checkw will have posted this information earlier in the thread.

He did, but forgot to add the caveats. I posted them but they were ignored:

We hence count both abstention and negative votes as a failure to publicly support a majority view.

However, one thing to note is the high level of agreement in both periods: the UK voted on the winning side 97.4% of the time in 2004-09 and 86.7% of the time in 2009-15.

These aggregate patterns might be distorted by the fact that there were more votes on some policy issues than on others, with the UK opposed only in areas that happened to have many votes.

However, there are some important caveats to keep in mind:
• The council overwhelmingly decides by consensus, which means the UK is on the winning majority side almost 87% of the time.
• The UK government might be more willing than other governments to publicly register its opposition to EU decisions.
• The data does not tell us what went on behind the scenes on each of these issues, and hence how much the UK disagreed with the majority position when it recorded its opposition – perhaps the UK was on the winning side on all the key issues it really cared about in this period.

I'm saying it's not a case of playing nicely or not - that is irrelevant. Proposals are made, negotiated and agreed on the strengths and weaknesses of the proposals. Both sides have something the other side wants and there is a meeting in the middle somewhere that mutually benefits both parties. It is the basics of negotiation - otherwise its not a negotiation.

It is in the interests of the EU to have good relations with the UK - we're close neighbours, work with eathother on a whole host other things - dealing with Putin, NATO, intelligence. It is important that we're both successful. We largely agree on things, just disagree on how to achieve them.

I just don't share some peoples down-beat view of the UK. We have alot to offer the world. The world actually likes us - that is my experience. The world actually respects us and sees us as a beacon of fairness that stands up for principles, we not corrupt (relatively speaking). The EU wants to have a close relationship/partnership with the UK as it reinforces their position and standing in the world.

I just don't think that the normal rules of commerce, law and politics is going to cease overnight. If it does that will have much greater global implications.

My worry is that disentangling or reshaping 43 years of laws, trade, regulations that effect almost every aspect of our life will be ****ing insanely complicated and require a huge number of people,

I think a lot of lawyers are going to earn an awful lot of money out of all this

@kimbers-did you watch the YouTube video of the professor at Liverpool Uni?

Exactly what he said. They'll need a lot of lawyers and quickly as the civil service simply does not have the resources to cope.

He, whilst being very much remain, admitted that a Leave vote would give him a couple of years of very well paid work.

His analysis of how trade deals are negotiated is very interesting as well.

Re Immigration the Leave Campaign repeatedly said it was about control. Australia takes in double the number of migrants as does the UK but it does so as a result of its own decision. Its up to whatever government we have in the future to set those numbers or indeed decide its effectively unlimited.

I have been quite busy but will catch up later, a couple of interesting tid bits

UK stock market reaction fairly muted at close and European markets down more reflecting the fact they have more to lose.

EU commissioners throwing toys out of pram and showing frustration that Article 50 is somethig we trigger not them (oh the irony) added to a journalists comment on R4 that the EU is quite good at circumventing rules to just do what it wants (irony dialled to 11), ie finding a backdoor way to try and "eject" the UK.

I see the Germans (politicians and unions) have been more measured, they understand a trade imbalance.

Australia takes in double the number of migrants as does the UK but it does so as a result of its own decision.

this concept seems to be beyond anyone in the remain campaign...

EU commissioners throwing toys out of pram and showing frustration that Article 50 is somethig we trigger not them

Checkw will have posted this information earlier in the thread

the Checkw defense?

jambalaya - Member
Re Immigration the Leave Campaign repeatedly said it was about control. Australia takes in double the number of migrants as does the UK but it does so as a result of its own decision. Its up to whatever government we have in the future to set those numbers or indeed decide its effectively unlimited

And Hannanbot said last night free movement wouldn't end. Oh, and taking back control?
[url= http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-new-migrant-crisis-could-8276808 ]like this?[/url]

Australia takes in double the number of migrants as does the UK but it does so as a result of its own decision.

this concept seems to be beyond anyone in the remain campaign...

Being in possession of Australian Permanent Residence I fully get that. Most people actually do [b]BUT[/b] we also get that Free movement of people is tied in with free trade within the single market. That delivers benefits to the UK, EU Migration has been shown to also be a positive to the UK economy with WU Migrants being positive contributors. We were entirely happy to look at the facts and decide not only that Free Movement of people was a good thing but also the stuff we get in return for it are even better.

Also the free movement of people goes both ways providing UK citizens with opportunities throughout the EU to further themselves and progress.

It seems that some people can't get why anyone would want to live anywhere but the UK and therefore the movement was 1 way.

We just chucked all that away.

I think it's absolutely right to stop the name calling. That is too easy.

OK. I'm in for the Britain Can Make It project.

Now, time for the new leaders to unveil the master plan I really hope they have had locked away in a safe for all this time. Unfortunately I suspect that the WHSmith just down the road from Boris's house has just had a run on crayons.

Anyhow, it's up to you, the Leavers to provide the leadership. I will continue to work hard and contribute as before.

So, The Plan.

Please don't tell me it involves building autobahns and/or having a jolly little war to unite us all, though.

I keep hearing the phrase "the UK has to be made an example of" words like that are not helpful.

Well by indulging our baser instincts we have given other the opportunity to do the same. That's democracy after all.

The speculative way everyone is talking about NI is worrying. I lived through the troubles and don't want my kids to experience the same. There's been a lot of very destabilising chatter over the past 24 hours.

Of course Junkers wants us to crack on - but it benefits us to string it out a bit....this is the fist step of the negotiation.

My concern/worry is that Junkers is actually the arrogant vindictive bureaucrat he's been accuse of, with a desire to keep the current EU together and use that to cloud the negotiations. I'd rather he and his fellow bureaucrats eat a bit of humble pie, realise that there are some genuine concerns and desire for change that the rest of the EU fosters that is driving the rise of the far right and that some significant reform is needed to change the shape of the EU, instead of blaming the UK and making an example of us to save the EU in its current form.

The structure of the current EU is out of date in today's modern fast moving world. The world has overtaken it. It's too big, bureaucratic and slow. The modern world is fast moving, agile and reacts immediately to the global environment. I work with customers in the countries in the Asia Pacific regions - it is staggering, impressive and ominous for the established west the way that these countries operate. They're all young, well educated, tech savvy, innovative, make quick decisions, act rather than deliberate, are used to working in a volatile uncertain environment. The growth is staggering - and it's only just starting to gather pace, they're hungry go-getters. This is the future, they will inherit the earth and the established economies of the US, UK and EU will be left in their wake, and the current structure of the EU just can't hope to compete in its current form. Having to refer big decisions to a council of 27 or so member states is just too slow.

. I keep hearing the phrase "the UK has to be made an example of" words like that are not helpful.

The EU are in crisis mode they have to send a warning to other countries with far right elements looking to stage a referendum

Having to refer big decisions to a council of 27 or so member states is just too slow.

You're right should've just signed up TTIP in its 1st 2015 draft

😕

Having to refer big decisions to a council of 27 or so member states is just too slow.

Idiot woman from Barnsley being interviewed on Channel 4 news. States that her parents and grandparents "fought for England to be free" and it was time for England to be free. So basically a big FU to Scotland, Wales and NI plus she is either completely unaware of what was fought for in the wars she referred to and who exactly fought in them. Absolutely disgusted that people have voted based on this misguided nonsense. Thick, racist ****s.

So dinghys in the Channel soon?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36626553

Yes kimbers, but at least we'll have control!

meanwhile back at leave HQ the plan for the navy to rebuild the empire is in full swing
[img] [/img]

Well just heard my cousin is applying for French status - not sure exactly what sort.

And that petition Flanagaj mentioned/suggested is just under a million signatures now.

UK stock market reaction fairly muted at close

How does the song go? "We've only just begun"

Experts? Nobody needs experts, they are just making themselves sound important.
Anyway you don't need all that finance crap what we need is proper positive thinking and some good old fashioned stiff upper lip, maybe a war

Pesky bankers have got what's coming to them.

[quote=P-Jay ]I wonder how many Brexiters woke up like this today

Here are the Remainers:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36628305
Well if the carnage continues this one vote will have toppled a prime minister, nudged an opposition leader (I doubt he will start listening to his party and doing what they want), split the government and what will be next?

Just a random thought... do the Lords have the power to block the article 50 declaration?

Well that's all right then:-

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/sunderland-to-become-futuristic-metropolis-by-2018-20160625109816

kimbers - Member
Having to refer big decisions to a council of 27 or so member states is just too slow.
You're right should've just signed up TTIP in its 1st 2015 draft

Whilst China is dumping cheap steel on the world the EU [u]raised[/u] tariffs to only half of that already imposed on Russian steel. We all know how that finished and will now need to save our steel industry if we are to boost our economy. The EU is a lumbering beast and getting worse, not better as time passes.

[quote=duckman ]a trade agreement with a newly Indy Scotland would be installed. Which would give back door access to English markets and make Scotland attractive to the EU

You're indulging in the same sort of wishful thinking as a lot of Leavers - except worse in a way as you're suggesting something which can't possibly happen. I've no doubt there would be trade agreements between RUK and IS. At least until IS joined the EU, at which point any trade agreements would be between RUK and the EU. There will be no back door.

Have we done this?

Leave campaigner Nigel Evans has denied immigration will fall after the UK voted to leave the EU. The Conservative MP said there had been some “misunderstanding” over the Leave campaign’s position on reducing immigration.

They blinking did by the way I heard Gove say there was a manifesto commitment on reducing immigration that leaving would allow them to do. Think it was Gove anyway.

What stops us having trade agreements with both England,and the EU? With the sort of free passage for workers that we already have. I can't see us introducing border controls anytime soon. That is speculation,not wishful thinking..As for wishful thinking, my biggest wish is for Scotland to be an independent country,how do you think that one will pan out for me?

Whilst China is dumping cheap steel on the world the EU raised tariffs to only half of that already imposed on Russian steel. We all know how that finished and will now need to save our steel industry if we are to boost our economy. The EU is a lumbering beast and getting worse, not better as time passes

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/10/david-cameron-accused-failing-uk-steel-industry-blocking-eu-lesser-duty-proposal ]For the imaginary world of a Brexiteer[/url]

Time for some positive thinking and action, time to bring back the good old british motivational poster
[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

Remember the good old days

Thanks for that but if you read my previous posts on the matter you'll would notice I blamed the UK government too. The EU is supposed to act in the interest of all its member states and failed to pursue a political stance against Russia instead of the economic benefits of the EU

She's oan it

[quote=duckman ]What stops us having trade agreements with both England,and the EU?

Nothing at all if you're totally independent - I thought you wanted to be an EU member though and that was the whole point?

Our finance minister in Europe has just been given the boot. Osborne is in hiding. The city must be crapping themselves. Meantime - BoJo Gove and even Farage. Where the **** are they?

Whilst China is dumping cheap steel on the world the EU raised tariffs to only half of that already imposed on Russian steel. We all know how that finished and will now need to save our steel industry if we are to boost our economy.

Correct, and right-wing Tory governments have a fantastic track record of state intervention in these areas. The roads to the North and West will surely be paved with gold by 2020.

aracer - Member
duckman » What stops us having trade agreements with both England,and the EU?
Nothing at all if you're totally independent - I thought you wanted to be an EU member though and that was the whole point?

I think you're missing the point - the suggestion was being made that IS could have trade agreements with RUK which were different to those the EU had with RUK. Something which is only possible if IS isn't in the EU.

Unless I'm missing the point, but I don't see how Scotland provides a gateway to RUK for the EU unless it had a separate trading arrangement.

You're gonna have to take those € registration plates off your cars and replace it with a fist and middle finger salute.

Bloody pathetic situation, pikies and the vote eh.

Typical, ruin it for everyone's else, selfish basterds.

They'll need a lot of lawyers and quickly as the civil service simply does not have the resources

@current size..... But we are going to need a much larger civil service for New Britain......

Now the eu jobs for the lads are on the way out 🙂

But we are going to need a much larger civil service for New Britain......

Is skilled emigration about to become a bigger issue than immigration?

I'm starting to wonder between individuals I know who are very seriously looking to leave, and companies' on going investment/deployment decisions (OK Morgan Stanley aren't leaving this week, but if you read their statement carefully it pretty much said we'll be gone by the time Brexit is complete - meanwhile the next time the Renault-Nissan plant at Sunderland is competing for a new model, will they be on a level playing field with a French plant?).

Oh yes, Flanagaj's petition to rerun the EU referendum is over 1.5 million signatures now.

That should be an interesting parliamentary debate.

Mr Woppit - Member
Our finance minister in Europe has just been given the boot.

To be fair I think he was asked by JCJ to stay on but he resigned as he felt as a pro-European he was no longer representing his country.

What's the point of ukip now that UK independence is on the cards? Will they finally shuffle off the political stage, leaving tory, labour an the new UKEU party?

meanwhile the next time the Renault-Nissan plant at Sunderland is competing for a new model, will they be on a level playing field with a French plant?

The next new model is the new Juke, but only if they can hit the cost targets that were promised. They only just won it and that extra potential £??? that has just been added by voting to leave might well tip the scales in favour of the Renault plant they were competing with.

Turkeys voting for christmas is very appropriate.

Never mind Christmas, they've just voted to establish Thanksgiving too...

The BBC has been told that Britain could be forced to start negotiating its departure from the EU earlier than the government had planned.

David Cameron wants to delay the start of exit talks until a new Conservative leader has been elected in October.

But Derrick Wyatt QC, emeritus professor of law at Oxford University, told the BBC that the European Council - representing the 27 other member states - could trigger the negotiating process as soon as the prime minister discusses Brexit with other EU leaders.

EU foreign ministers have joined the European Commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker, in urging the UK to begin talks as soon as possible.

The EU is absolutly terrified of contagion, they want the issue dead, buried, and out of the headlines, as soon as possible.

Some EU politicians/bureaucrats, such as Jean-Claude Juncker, would rather maximum haste even if it doesn't serve the long term interests of the EU, the thought that other voters in the EU might be demand a similar say is too much for them to bear - the last thing they want is voters in member states meddling in their affairs and expressing an opinion.

Others such as Angela Merkel take a more level-headed approach, she has said :

[i] “Analyze and evaluate the situation calmly and prudently, and jointly make the right decisions on this foundation.”

“Our goal should be to shape the future relationship of Great Britain with the European Union as being tight and partner-like.”

“The German government will pay special attention to the interests of German citizens and German business.”[/i]

Spot on ernie. Thankfully the ultimate power lies with Merkel rather than Juncker , because Germany is bankrolling his little empire

I'm not at all surprised that the EU leadership are demanding that the UK immediately say they are leaving (Article 50), but we'd be incredible foolish to do it as once it's 'declared' then we've only 2 years to negotiate before we're out - and they don't need to offer us anything...

The longer it takes , the longer the incertainty .

Strange how the Leave top campaigners are very quiet

They have just show some leave voters in sheffield on the BBC news who are now fearful of the future as they somehow didn't think out was going to mean out, thought it was just some sort of protest vote ffs!!! And these are f...wits who have just shafted mine and my family's future.

they don't need to offer us anything

No, what could Britain possibly have which might be of use to anyone ?

Can't imagine why they were so desperate for the UK not to leave.

It was the easy access to glorious weather and haute cuisine, wasn't it ?

The honorable thing would be for England and Wales to secede from the UK and exit the EU that way. That would leave Scotland and NI to continue as the UK and therefore the EU member state. London would need to decide separately.

Well in the case of Ireland all they need to do is remove the artificial partition. Problem solved.