[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Indeed we don't. We understand the real as opposed to the exagerated notion of EU law making and the SMALL fact that as a matter of fundamentl UK constitutional law, the UK Parliament is sovereign (see 1972 ECA Act)

UK Parliament is sovereign

Worth repeating I feel..

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35766434 ]BBC FACT CHECK[/url]

Good link with the conclusion that

[b]"These developments do not fundamentally undermine the principle of parliamentary sovereignty, [/b]since, in theory at least, Parliament could repeal any of the laws implementing these changes."

In other words, the UK Parliament is sovereign. QED.

The purpose of a centralised system is to standardise by slowly chipping away other decentralise system to form one large system. In our case EU system replacing individual state systems with one large EU ones otherwise the system (EU) does not work.

Still a good trade but a lousy stat. Are we suggesting that membership is the equivalent of 3% on income tax?

My calculation based upon annual net cost of EU memenrship fee of £8bn - 2% VAT or 3% income tax

The UK Parliament is Sovereign as we can withdraw from the EU 🙂

Remain campaign is trying to suggest doing so is financial suicide

I get that, but so what?

Why is it better to compare the cost of membership with how much the UK government raises in taxation compared to with the level of national output/income?

Even if you want to use the stat and get into a stat fest - its a potential loss of 8% of income tax receipts versus a "cost" (sic) of 3%. As an investor, which would you chose?

The UK Parliament is Sovereign as we can withdraw from the EU

Remain campaign is trying to suggest doing so is financial suicide

and the link between the two is....?

I can't predict the future, I can make an assesment that focusing on high growth economies away from the stagnant EU is the smart way to go.

I also really struggle with the "we are not in the euro" argument. The euro is the EU, all countires have to commit to join, it is the medium term objective. The monumental ****-up they have made of it will condem Europe to decades of pain, and we want to tie oirselves ever more closely exonomically and politcally to that ? No thanks

Remember when pensioners won their case of lost pensions by appealing to the E.U?

They found the U.K. government guilty of not protecting the policies and looking away.

I wonder how many of them them would be still working or living on the street or dead because of the U.K.couldnt give a hoot which was around £4-6 billion.

Thank god for the E.U. as pensioners claimed back 90%.

What do we do when we're f'd in the rear when it's our turn with no E.U?

For myself: Brexit.
For the good of others: Remain.

Difficult choice.

Remain campaign is trying to suggest doing so is financial suicide

I can't predict the future, I can make an assesment that focusing on high growth economies away from the stagnant EU is the smart way to go

1) that is predicting the future as it will happen in the future and you have decide one will be stagnant in the future and one vibrant.
2) they are not mutually exclusive we can focus on that and be in the EU - in fat as we can now one wonder why the majority of our exports are to the EU etc

I can't predict the future, I can make an assesment that focusing on high growth economies away from the stagnant EU is the smart way to go.

Why is this always framed by the Brexit mob as an either/or?

teamhurtmore - Member
seosamh77 - Member
Thm, what criticisms do you have of the EU?
You have to start with the BIG one - the €. Flawed in design, flawed in execution. This will require a major rethink of how Germany interacts with the rest of the EZ and the issue of fiscal transfers.

Personally, I do not believe it can/will work. But at least, if they are going to persist, you have to put the correct structure in place.

Fortunately, we are not involved in this folly.

From a uk perspective, what are the negatives as you see them?

Jamba, i'm expecting your submission on the positives from a uk perspective before lunch time! 😆

Just curious for balance purposes, as you are both argument basically from a good/bad point of view, it's too polarised.

Has [url= https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/what-do-eu-know ]this article[/url] been discussed yet?

It reports on some polling by MORI that shows the difference between what people believe about the EU and the reality.

Those polled believed that:

- the UK was the 2nd largest contributor to the EU (in reality we're 4th);
- that 27% of the EU budget was spent on admin (in reality it's 6%);
- that 30% of international investment in the UK comes from the EU (in reality it's 48%, ~£496billion)
- that 15 out of every 100 UK residents were born elsewhere in the EU (in reality it's 5);
- that 14% of child benefit claims were for children outside the UK (in reality it's 0.3%)

Shows the power of misinformation and scaremongering. Not to mention the difficulty in seeing through the nonsense to make an informed choice.

(For the record I'm undecided but swinging heavily toward Bremain at the moment)

I can't predict the future, I can make an assesment that focusing on high growth economies away from the stagnant EU is the smart way to go.

As has been pointed out above, the two are not mutually exclusive - in theory or in practice

I also really struggle with the "we are not in the euro" argument.

Clearly, but it is very simple. We are not....

The euro is the EU, all countires have to commit to join, it is the medium term objective.

Can you think of any exceptions?

The monumental ****-up they have made of it will condem Europe to decades of pain, and we want to tie oirselves ever more closely exonomically and politcally to that ? No thanks

Economically - yes. The EA is only growing slightly less than us and faster than some EM economies. Either way it remains one of our biggest markets. Common sense tells you to focus on the arrangement that facilitates trade with this region the most. An easy answer...

Politically - no. And we are not.

the UK was the 2nd largest contributor to the EU (in reality we're 4th);

and as a percentage of GNI we make the lowest contribution of all member states. Its a bloody good deal and madness to throw it away. Who is talking about suicide??

Joe - of course I am going to focus on the big issue as its fundamental to pretty much everything else. Remember woods and trees as sbob reminds us!!

Judging by the standard of living of my European colleagues, I can't help thinking a Euro superstate (but that the end goal or not) might not be a terrible thing.

Even if we lose out somewhat economically (and I've no belief that is actually true once the whole balance sheet is added up) I can't help thinking it's a price worth paying for stability.

We aren't in the Euro. There are reasons to join and stay out I have some sympathy with, but it isn't even a question in this debate.

It's a heart rather than head decision. That or just see that odious Gove wants out, and therefore staying in is clearly right.

Just in case it's not already ^^

Why is this always framed by the Brexit mob as an either/or?

Binners because the 28 members of the EU have a very different agenda than do we the UK, the fifth richest country in the world. Also an organisation like the EU is a political supertanker, changing course is so slow its impercetpable. As pointed out the EU has agreed trade deals with the Palestinian terrirrories and Moldovia but no deal with China, Japan or the US

As far as exonomics go

Remain is most likely a short term gain financially for me but a medium and long term loss of huge proportiona

Remember when pensioners won their case of lost pensions by appealing to the E.U?

They found the U.K. government guilty of not protecting the policies and looking away.

I wonder how many of them them would be still working or living on the street or dead because of the U.K.couldnt give a hoot which was around £4-6 billion.

Thank god for the E.U. as pensioners claimed back 90%.

What do we do when we're f'd in the rear when it's our turn with no E.U?

ECHR is not the same thing as the EU - as we keep getting reminded every time the [b]other[/b] side try to use a European court judgement as proof we don't make our own laws.

Judging by the standard of living of my European colleague

25% Youth unemployment and 10% overall would suggest that's not the whole story

Binners because the 28 members of the EU have a very different agenda than do we the UK, the fifth richest country in the world.

That or just see that odious Gove wants out, and therefore staying in is clearly right.

I can't predict the future, I can make an assesment that focusing on high growth economies away from the stagnant EU is the smart way to go.

Which ones? Economies starting from a low level, with little social protection etc., or advanced economies like ... err .. Japan? Which are these models that we should be emulating?

jambalaya - Member
Judging by the standard of living of my European colleague
25% Youth unemployment and 10% overall would suggest that's not the whole story

uk sits around 15% youth unemployment, and the EU figure is obviously skewed but southern europe, so it's not as simple a consideration of 25% youth unemployment. It's a bit more complex than that.

Binners because the 28 members of the EU have a very different agenda than do we the UK

Well lets see? This is fundamentally about trade, so

X's of G&S (%GDP): Germany 46%; France 29%; UK 29%
M's of G&S (%GDP): Germany 39%; France 31%; 31%

So all three major economies actively engaged in trade - [b]so making it easier is mutually beneficial.[/b] So who with?

Top X partners

Germany: [b]France, US, UK, China, Netherlands[/b], Austria, [b]Italy,[/b] Poland, [b]Switz, Belgium[/b]
France: [b]Germ, Belg, It,[/b] Sp, [b]UK, US, Neth, China, Switz, [/b]Poland
UK: [b]US, Germany, Neth, Switz, Fr,[/b] Irelan, [b]China, Belg,[/b] Sp, [b]It[/b]

Bold indicates countries inclusive to all lists (plus each other)

Top M partners

Germany: [b]Neth, China, France, US, Italy[/b], Switz, Pol, [b]Belgium,[/b] Russia, [b]UK [/b](phew made it!)
France: [b]Germany; China, Belgium, Italy, US,[/b] Spain, [b]Neth, UK, Switz,[/b] Russia
UK: [b]Germany, China, US, Neth, Fr, Belg, Italy, [/b]Norway, Spain, Ireland

[b]So in terms of trade a lot of common interest in terms of the importance of trade and who we trade with.[/b]

So what? We have very similar agendas rather than very different ones.

[b]"We" not "Then versus Us" [/b] (unless you are a xenophobe) !!

A few pages back Jamba claimed France had become EU Skeptic. I've now gone through polls over several years and haven't found one more EU skeptic than 55% remain to 45% Frexit (stripping out the don't knows). Perhaps I've missed something. In terms of demands for a referendum, about 50% are in favour.

The euro is the EU, all countires have to commit to join, it is the medium term objective.

Really? Where's it say that?

Really? Where's it say that?

I don't know, but IIRC "newly joining" countries have to "aspire" to joining the Euro at some future appropriate time, hence Poland may want to but can't, Sweden are supposed to but have decided that they will "aspire" for a bit longer. UK and DK have specific opt-outs from the Euro.

Dr J is correct on the Euro - the Eu also said they would not try to force Sweden to join

Perhaps I've missed something

Ask him for a source it will be futile but you might as well learn that lesson now and save yourself some time.

That or just see that odious Gove wants out, and therefore staying in is clearly right.

...or just see that odious Blair wants in, and therefore voting out is clearly right.

I'll see your Blair and raise you one opportunistic weasel Boris.

(This could run)

[I]Shows the power of misinformation and scaremongering. Not to mention the difficulty in seeing through the nonsense to make an informed choice.[/I]

More of the same, bottom line, don't trust what the British Public thinks...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-8697821.html

I'll see your Blair and raise you one opportunistic weasel Boris.

Did you listen to the Today programme this morning? Reporter at a factory making fancy boxes, and employing up to 50% seasonal workers. Reporter asked employee if she was voting In or Out. Employee said OUT. Reporter asked why and was told because of immigration. When quizzed on whether she thought this was odd, considering where she worked, the employee replied (and this could be a summary of the entire Brexit argument "these are fine, it's the others I don't want".

Facepalm.

mikewsmith - Member

I'll see your Blair and raise you one opportunistic weasel Boris

Can I place a side bet using chewkw (think he is 50:50 though

I call them zombie maggots ...

[b]ALL of them[/b] including the politicians you worship coz I treat them the same as they are the lowest of the low.

Go on worship you leader ... left, right and centre and those in the EU ... 😀

Can I place a side bet using chewkw (think he is 50:50 though

I doubt it - what do you think he's worth ?

Remain vote sent

DrJ - Member

Can I place a side bet using chewkw (think he is 50:50 though

I doubt it - what do you think he's worth ?

More than the zombie maggots you worship I hope.

In the far east people worship political zombie maggots or be part of their entourage because they get land title ... yes, land title, virgin forest to cut at will, they become Lord indirectly kickbacks, they get mega contracts, they get to step on the the ordinary people ...

But you lot worship your political overlords as if they are your moral guide ... I mean there are dumb and there are dumber. Which are you?

what do you think he's worth ?

come on, i think youll find that the outies have by far the lead in unpleasant supporters

(pinched from fb)

innies...

• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECD

Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:

• Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
• A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
• That idiot that was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
• Leader of UKIP
• BNP
• Britain First
• Donald Trump
• Keith Chegwin
• David Icke
• Nadine Dorries

Keith Chegwin you say? That settles it.

Junkyard - lazarus

what do you think he's worth ?

His silence is priceless his posts are worthless

So whose ancestors are you defending? 😆

I do despair of the whole "debate", there are some who, I think they're wrong, who do believe that leaving the EU will improve the UK, that it will increase trade etc. and if you genuinely believe that then I respect your view. I tend to look at Westminster and having seen how incapable they are of negotiating anything am of the opinion going forward they will only screw the UK. The UK is not in a strong position when it comes to negating with China or India for example.

However the "debate" isn't really about that, it is about them. More and more the whole argument is about stopping immigration, yet if you read the official literature there is no talk of stopping immigration merely controlling it. Or in the words of the Tories increasing red tape.

If Brexit wins I fear that there are going to be a lot of brexit supporters who are going to feel very unhappy when they realise what they have actually got.

You forgot that the CEO of JCB and Dyson have endorsed leave - two of the most successful self made exporters around who have succeeded despite the EU and not because of it. On the issue of trade and the economy they know a bit more than any plitician, banker or economist as they live and breathe it every day, know the global economic landscape better than anyone and what is needed for the UK to thrive given the way the world is going. They've thrived through recessions and other economic challenges. I personally am more likely to take a steer from those guys on the issue of trade and the economy.

mrmo - Member
If Brexit wins I fear that there are going to be a lot of brexit supporters who are going to feel very unhappy when they realise what they have actually got.

I think you should not be concerned if they are happy or not.

The question is are you happy?

If you are not happy then what do you intend to do about it?

As for capable of governing ... oh c'mon ... you got to be born yesterday to say that because it is so wrong I don't know where to start.

Have you actually seen far east politics in action? 😆

Why would anyone take notice of Dyson?