[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Plus if other countries are able to hire substantial numbers of foreign health staff without FoM there is no reason why we can’t either - unless folk want to exaggerate for effect

Which other countries? Are they equivalent to the uk?
How many is “substantial”? Is that enough?
Where are these “substantial” numbers? Sitting around doing nothing?
Do these “substantial” numbers meet uk medical standards?
What will it cost the NHS to employ/administer these “substantial“ numbers who will presumably require work visas? Can it afford it?
Will we have to out-bid other countries to employ foreign staff if they aren’t just doing nothing?
Have we really met the intent of the Brexit vote if all we’re doing is replacing EU workers with “even more foreign” equivalents?

It’s really easy to just come out with a waffly statement. Look forward to the collateral that backs it up with the reality of hard facts and thought-through consequences.

We get more nurses and doctors from the ROW than the EU already.

No reason why Eu nationals need to leave other than scaremongering

Aus and Canada and similar third world countries to us 😉 Less than 50% of Aussie medical staff are Aussie born. They cope. So can we

Gov most likely to treat NHS staff differently/prioritise

Still keep scaremongering....

[a lot more]

They don't "need to leave" now but many may reasonably choose to do so. I know of EU academics who have chosen to pursue their careers elsewhere. I don't currently "need" e-residency of Estonia either but am considering setting it up anyway as doing so would eliminate one possible hiccup in participating in a planned H2020 bid. It's all about preparing for brexit, I thought you were in favour of that....

Yes mefty - and most ROW nurses have to be retrained in the UK as their qualifications are not accepted by the NMC. takes 6 months to a year depending on the country. Also visas are tricky to get and expensive and take time.

I love it. Hard factual evidence of Brexit causing huge problems in recruitment and retention of EU nurses increasing the pressures on the NHS and loads of nonsensical distortions from leavers and tory fantasists to tyry to explain why this is not an issue.

Its a huge issue and its very damaging

Anyone mentioned the "immigration skills charge" yet?

special deal for foreign nhs staff, maybe farmers , students , who else ?
builders ?

This Brexit plan is really going well 😉

No reason why Eu nationals need to leave other than scaremongering

And being spat at, insulted, intimdated, and told to "**** off to where you came from" by Brexit fueled xenophobes.

Edit: having driven a Peugeot 605 on French plates in Britain during the BSE provoked ban on British beef I can assure you that some Brits need little or no justification for being properly nasty to foreigners.

Huge issue in remoan speak - some of 4% segment of workforce may leave for various reasons including scaremongering, language tests etc

God help us when a real huge issue comes alone - “gargantuan” issue? We will have run out of superlatives well before then

“Now now young man, let’s have a look at the catastrophic splinter you have there.”

I know UK nationals who have left the NHS in the last year due to the hell of working in understaffed areas of the UK. Remember, some areas of the UK more dependant on EU/EEA staff than others, the "problem" is not evenly spread. Of course, the problem isn't that we have benefited from Spanish and Portuguese nurses in the South of England, it is that they can easily move somewhere else to stay in the EU/EEA. Why wouldn't they? And without them, the working conditions of "native" staff becomes harder… and then they look to elsewhere as well.

due to the hell of working in understaffed areas of the UK.

Edukator - Reformed Troll

No reason why Eu nationals need to leave other than scaremongering

And being spat at, insulted, intimdated, and told to "**** off to where you came from" by Brexit fueled xenophobes.

and being told they will have to register and be treated as second class citizens losing rights they previously had in the UK

Create a hostile atmosphere and people are voting with their feet by the thousand.

And being spat at, insulted, intimdated, and told to "**** off to where you came from" by Brexit fueled xenophobes.

But enough about the Costa del Sol...

“Now now young man, let’s have a look at the catastrophic splinter you have there.”

A quick Quant check shows people have suffered amputations and died from slinters of one type or another.

Edit: Ninfan made me smile, I feel dirty.

If we are on to silly/irrelevant anecdotes Ed, I was in the crowd at Twickenham heartily singing the French national anthem and cheering on les blues versus NZ in the RWC at the same time

We thoroughly embraced nos Amis and I won the pot in the sweepstake too. Brothers in arms with the French!!

Not that either is relevant here. Tant pis

and being told they will have to register and be treated as second class citizens losing rights they previously had in the UK
Create a hostile atmosphere and people are voting with their feet by the thousand.

[i]the percentage of leavers with EU nationality was still lower in 2016/17 than the percentage of joiners with EU nationality.[/i]

Page 8:

Have to register? Really? What a bloody cheek? We will be asking them to pay tax next?

So are the skills for filling in a registration form too demanding for a nurse? I hope note.

Good job no one has mentioned protecting EU citizens rights. Still keep scaremongering and you moaners might scare even more off

silly/irrelevant anecdotes Ed

Bye for now... .

Indeed, glad you got the point

(The use of a plural noun was the giveaway)

the percentage of leavers with EU nationality was still lower in 2016/17 than the percentage of joiners with EU nationality.

completely misleading - check the NMC figures which are the definitive figures for those joining and leaving the register in the UK. 18 months ago ago we had a net balance of plus 800 a month ie 800 more EU nurses join the register than leave. 6 months ago it was a net fall of 350 eu nurses per month. and the trend is accelerating.

Hard robust figures from the folk who actually count the number of nurses registered to work in the UK

Here is the link again to the facts presented without political spin from the source.

Huge net loss of EU nurses with an accelerating trend. Fact. Unspinnable

350/800 out of a total staff of over one million.

Statistical noise

Clearly spinnable

Overall the number of EU trained nurses and midwives on our register has grown steadily since April 2010, but has [b]declined slightly [/b]since September 2016.

Relief to read that harassment was not one of the three reasons given for the drop. Apparently it’s a growing problem

ninfan - Member

350/800 out of a total staff of over one million.

Statistical noise

actually the NHS nursing workforce is around a quarter of a million. losing a few % a year at an accelerating rate is significant.

still - it was aobvious the tory fantasists and leavers would attempt to explain this away as insignificant even tho its clearly not.

1% of 5% (if I have read this correctly minus glasses)

Significant? You decide.....

We must treat this information with a little caution, particularly the data for the last six months. Some nurses and midwives who left the register who lapsed may still be readmitting or planning to readmit soon to the register, and as such these numbers may come down a little over the next couple of months.

Mrs Egf is/was a nurse (& had to pay a registration fee of £120 per year ?)
Anyway, she's was very ill in the summer of 2017 & spent 6 weeks (+ another 3 weeks later) in the hospital she works at. A lot of staff & nurses there are from India, mainly Kerala or Goa, & while i was in there visiting Sue I got chatting to most of them in general, & often asked how they thought Brexit would would affect them if at all. None of them were even slightly perplexed at the idea!
Another excellent nurse (David, from Winsconsin, daft as a lighthouse cat but a fantastic at his job) just laughed when I mentioned Brexit & said 'who cares, I'm a stayin!' (he'd just bought a house in Harrogate)

So, are we just talking about European workers or does no-one else matter?

There is no staffing crisis.

Brexit is not going to make it worse.

The NHS will not be damaged by Brexit.

Sleep well, and enjoy your private health cover Leave cheerleaders.

Classic moaning. When caught misrepresenting your own facts (sic), misrepresent what others are saying too. Bravo.

Sleep well

“City of dreams....”

esselgruntfuttock

Its only EU nurses affected by brexit and they have voted with their feet. this is not a prediction. What was a positive supply of nurses from the EU has turned into a net loss of nurses. This is hard fact.

Bravo.

Its only EU nurses affected by brexit and they have voted with their feet. this is not a prediction. What was a positive supply of nurses from the EU has turned into a net loss of nurses. This is hard fact.

Thanks TJ.

*books trip to India to do some recruiting*

So is Europe not the only continent in the world that the NHS can recruit from? (or can we get staff from the other 6 continents?)

Bemused of North Yorkshire.

Its harder to recruit from other countries. aus , NZ and us pay thier nurses more so not many of them willcome here. India sub continent nurses need to be retrained, fillipino nurses IIRC the same. visas are complex and expensive to get for non eu nurses. so yes we can recruit from other places than the EU but its much more difficult and expensive and the quality of staff is not so good as their training is less.

Its only EU nurses affected by brexit and they have voted with their feet. this is not a prediction. What was a positive supply of nurses from the EU has turned into a net loss of nurses. This is hard fact.

Not according to NHS England figures, number of EU nurses has gone up.

If it was the language test that was putting EU registrants off coming to the UK why is there no significant drop in non eu nurses?

We have a significant fall in EU nurses, no significant change of ROW nurses

Clear evidence of brexit affecting the nhs adversly.

mefty - Member

Its only EU nurses affected by brexit and they have voted with their feet. this is not a prediction. What was a positive supply of nurses from the EU has turned into a net loss of nurses. This is hard fact.

Not according to NHS England figures, number of EU nurses has gone up.

NOpe - that is bollox from cherry picking numbers. Look at the NMC links that shows a huge fall in registrations of 95%.

The number of people from the EEA on the register [b]has decreased by 2733 [/b]between September 2016 and September 2017. 1107 people from the EEA joined the register this year,[b] a decrease of 89 percent[/b] from the previous year, when 10,178 people from the EEA joined the register. The number of people joining the register[b] from the EEA decreased sharply [/b]in the last year, and the number of EEA nurses and midwives [b]leaving the register increased by 67 percent[/b] from 2435 last year to 4067 this year.

No it is the official NHS numbers sourced from their spreadsheets all linked on the previous page comparing actual numbers as at June 2017 to June 2016 - just comparison of absolutes.

NOpe - look at the NMC links for the real facts.

YOu are comparing total NHS workforce ie cleaners and porters whereas I am quoting figues for [b]nurses [/b]in the UK

The rise in EU workers in the UK is down to an increase in the non registered staff. the registered nurses from the EU has dropped by 95% in a year.

Indisputable fact. stop conflating all NHS staff with registered nurses

Mefty - I cannot find any source in your links to the make up of NHS nuring staff by country of origin - link to the bit you think disproves the NMC? remember the NMC is the regulator. they hold files on every nurse in the UK

so yes we can recruit from other places than the EU but its much more difficult and expensive and the quality of staff is not so good as their training is less.

I wouldn't say that about Jolie, Susan, Gladys, Thomas, Owen & 2 others who's names I don't recall. All from Kerala/Goa working on ITU (staff nurses & upwards)
Don't recall ANY staff nurses on any of the wards Sue was on being from the EU, although ALL the cleaning staff were.
(just been reminded that a nurse called Luda was EU, & very good too)
The NHS can't recruit UK staff with zilch training never mind refreshing non EU nurses.

Essel - they will have been retrained to UK standards ( if needed - its not always needed dependent on country)

Total NMC registrations are 690,000, total number of nurses in NHS England are less than half of that number so big gap between registrations and actual people doing the job.

My experience from working in the NHS is that EU nurses tend to be ok. NOn eu nurses are either good or awful. I have recently worked with two non eu nurses who are frankly dangerous - the worst I have ever seen. As a visitor you don't see the whole story but without overseas nurses both eu and non eu the nhs would collapse

mefty - Member

Total NMC registrations are 690,000, total number of nurses in NHS England are less than half of that number so big gap between registrations and actual people doing the job.

NBope - you forget the non nhs workforce which is of similar size ( care homes, agencies, non nhs hospitals). very few people and almost no overseas nurses will pay £120 a year and go thru a very time consuming process to retain registrations if not working and a loss in the total nursing workforce nhs or non nhs impacts on the NHS by creating shoratages

also you are confusing england and UK

If you want to debate this stuff you need to learn a fair bit more