[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Probably right.

London - Edinburgh hyperloop, it would be a small price to pay.

And London is the largest Scots city in the UK...

IGM - Sturgeon can talk all she likes but nothing can take effect until the UK as a whole has left the EU. At which point all those talks will be likely null and void as a newly independent Scotland would be applying to join as a new applicant and would have to jump through the hoops of any other new applicant country.

Do you think the EU would stick to any 'agreements' made by Sturgeon when she was not in a position to make them, or roll Scotland over a barrel when she is in even less of a position to negotiate?

Also, how do you think Spain (with its ability to veto new member countries) would view admitting a newly independent country, given their own independence issues?

Deals can be done in strange places. And she'd be daft to not have talked to them before a vote to "take back control" from Westminster.

I agree the deal would have no standing, but there is a huge difference with regard to the Spanish question - this would be about a nation trying to stay in the club while the remnants of the country that nation was once part of left. Nothing like the Spanish issue until Spain decides to leave - at which point their veto is somewhat moot.

For the record I personally don't favour a Scots exit, nor did I favour Britain quitting Europe - but things happen.

Will you be reccommending re-equipping the RAF with Spitfires next?

well they would be here before tranche 3 and the F35 so maybe not a bad call

Letter of no confidence has just been delivered to Jeremy Jeremy from his opponents in the PLP..

Merkel's response vs Junker's shows the difference between a politician who needs to be elected and one who doesn't.

...but there is a huge difference with regard to the Spanish question - this would be about a nation trying to stay in the club while the remainints of the country that nation was once part of left. Nothing like the Spanish issue until Spain decides to leave - at which point their veto is somewhat moot.

I completely disagree that there is a huge difference.

- Sturgeon has zero powers to negotiate for Scotland with the EU, you've already acknowledged this. Yes she can chat all she likes, but until Scotland gets it's independence from the rest of the UK it is, in effect, not much different from representatives of Catalonians or Basques 'chatting' to the EU.

- Given the timescale it took for Scotland to get its last independence vote do you think a new one will come before or after Brexit?

- Given an independent Scotland is really unlikely to happen until well after Brexit, Scotland wouldn't be negotiating to remain in the EU, they'd be applying to join (with the aforementioned hoops to jump through).

- Enter Spain's veto...

So Project Hate won narrowly over Project Fear. Well, good luck to us all. We are going to need it

I am just glad that I have no children who would have had their long term futures betrayed by a such a small majority of their elders

But I'll have to live with it, as will everyone and try and minimise the damage.

I think many who voted to leave yesterday will be surprised by how long it will take to see any change in immigration numbers and how quickly their pockets will be hit.

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A pyrrhic victory.

[img] [/img]

Racist liar.

Sootyandjim - I think I agree with all your points, but the conclusion I'd come to is that she would be daft not to be getting in touch with folks in the EU now. As you point out, later would be too late.

She's been on the phone to Sadiq already we hear - I doubt that was just talking about the weather. She's looking for deals.

Live scenes from the channel tunnel :

[img] ?oh=3b1628d7368758b6a9a8a9b042a2e923&oe=57FD6F01[/img]

Ro5ey - Member
Woppit ...
If I was being all blind patriotism I wouldn't have post the whole quote now would I.
As ever, look a bit deeper.... or simply read the last line
On this subject we in agreement, don't go spoiling it my friend.

Oh, that's very good. Well done.

Won't you lot stop posting? Has taken me hours to catch up since last night!

Which was the first point I'd posted on this thread - partly because I've tended to avoid politics threads on here recently, partly because until very recently I didn't have an answer to the thread title. A few things have come up in the last 10 pages, let's start with this one:

I agree with ernie that the insults being thrown towards the Leave side (which I note still continue on this page) were very unhelpful. Calling somebody names isn't the way to convince them they're wrong. Because a lot of people on the Leave side weren't racists or thick - some like ernie had a valid reason for voting that way, some were just misinformed. Personally I was strongly attracted towards Leave - as a point of principle I dislike a lot about the EU and a year or so ago I'd have expected to vote Leave, it's only on looking at the reality of the outcomes when I became strongly for Remain (to the point I'm also feeling genuinely upset this morning). I can accept and understand that lots of intelligent people who like me have no problem with immigration have been swayed by the propaganda and didn't realise the full implications - I know a few people like that. A lot of intelligent people also didn't believe what they were told about the downsides of a Leave vote - partly because they've been lied to by the same people before, partly because they were just ignoring it and hoping for the best.

So please don't label them all as racists or ignorant - a lot of Leave voters are neither, and you're just showing your own prejudices by doing so.

They obviously didn't employ enough MI5 staff, or deploy enough rubbers...

sootyandjim - Member

It's not hard, as the most astute leader in the soon-to-be-ex UK,she is looking after her own. I realise that there is a bit of "Et tu Brutus?" over the timing 😈 But any speculation by the Southern neebs on what will pan out WHEN Scotland leaves is just that; speculation, the messages coming from the EU this morning suggest that they want shot of you/us ASAP.

Loving the where to live in Scotland thread as well!

[quote=BaronVonP7 ]From Beeb:

Meanwhile, German MEP Manfred Weber, from the party of Chancellor Angela Merkel, insisted on a tough line for the UK: "There cannot be any special treatment for the United Kingdom. Leave means leave. The times of cherry-picking are over."

Except Manfred Weber isn't exactly a big player - he has just about as much power as Nigel Farage - and I doubt he was speaking for Angela. Who will no doubt be significantly more pragmatic about things given the potential impact on the German economy on trade barriers. I've seen her mentioned recently - has she herself commented?

and still angry here
NSFW link
[url=

I think of those that voted out[/url]

^ i want that as a pillowcase

[quote=duckman ]It's not hard, as the most astute leader in the soon-to-be-ex UK,she is looking after her own. I realise that there is a bit of "Et tu Brutus?" over the timing But any speculation by the Southern neebs on what will pan out WHEN Scotland leaves is just that; speculation

As is any speculation by Scotland on when they will leave. Some people are simply pointing out the reality that whilst she might talk to the EU, nothing she agrees before Scotland is an independent state is in any way binding. What's more it seems to have been glossed over that whilst there might be will in Scotland for another referendum that isn't something they have control over - it is in the hands of Westminster, and I can't see them being in any hurry to give Scotland another vote, not at least until well after any exit from the EU is complete. Unless of course there is a UDI, but I'm fairly sure that had been ruled out, and would in any case be tricky under international law (and make it even more difficult for Scotland to join the EU).

You do realise that the only reason you got the last referendum wasn't because the SNP wanted it, but because Cameron was confident it would give the right result (he was at least just about right about that, though it seems he didn't learn his lesson - I suppose at least he is now avoiding going down in history as presiding over the break up of the Union though).

^ i want that as a pillowcase

the messages coming from the EU this morning suggest that they want shot of you/us ASAP.

they want to stop the contagen, others are likely to follow they want to be seen to be trying to "punish" us too cow others on the way to a referendum

Can I now buy a more powerful hoover?

has she herself commented?

Very conciliatory, recognizes significant dissatisfaction with EU throughout Europe, meeting with others heads of Government to discuss. There will be a lot of noise from the European die hards because they recognize there is now a real risk to the project.

Can I now buy a more powerful hoover?

They obviously didn't employ enough MI5 staff, or deploy enough rubbers

[img] [/img]

Should have been the 'Leave' campaign badge - I mean it's got a laverly old union jack in it....... what? It contains the truth........in that case not.

Oh my fellow citizens, what HAVE you done?

As I was born when the UK was in Europe can I retain EU citizenship? (rhetorical questions as I know it's not going to happen 🙁 )

[quote=mefty ]has she herself commented?
Very conciliatory, recognizes significant dissatisfaction with EU throughout Europe, meeting with others heads of Government to discuss. There will be a lot of noise from the European die hards because they recognize there is now a real risk to the project.

That's interesting and encouraging.

You'd expect hardline statements from Juncker et al - for them the European project is the most important thing and stuff the countries and the ordinary people who might suffer. The reality thankfully is that whilst they might like to think they wield the power, effectively it's Germany and Merkel who do, as they're the ones bankrolling the scheme.

Hopefully some sense will prevail on all sides.

So Farage has admitted the 350m figure for the NHS was a'mistake'

Oh I don't know. Using blatant lies and scaremongering got him exactly what he wanted.

Quick point of order - Farage, is a liar, he is a bigot, a xenophobe and a racist and many more terrible things - he has played on the fears of people and given them a 'justifiable' enemy to blame all his followers misfortune on. He is, as they say in the trade a "****".

What he is not though, it a Member of Parliament, Nor is he, or was he ever a member of the Official Leave campaign who that bus belongs too - those words on the NHS are from Boris and his team - it's Boris, the soon to be PM of this wounded, dirtied isle that said that and it is up to him to make those lies true, but he can't - there was never £350m in the first place, most of that £350m came straight back to us in the form of the new Swansea Bay Development (who voted out) and BPW situated in Merthyr (who voted out) and a million other projects that weren’t based London (who voted In).

We should be shouting at Boris to make it happen, and ignoring Farage - there are many reasons why we're in this mess today, but it's partly because the media keep pushing him into our living rooms because he's interesting - we created this from the roots of a little fringe party that everyone thought was funny because Robert Kilroy Smith seemed to be having his meltdown in it.

Hopefully some sense will prevail on all sides.

The Remain campaign was woeful. They could have done lots of positive things but chose to go with fear.

Why did they not have a campaign where every person who had a conviction to remain would try their best to persuade a leaver to change their mind and support them with positive reasons?

The amount of smug remainers who chose to insult and belittle leavers rather than engage with them and was massive.

In retrospect I wish I had done more to try to sway people. I never sank to the levels that seem to be prevalent on here.

Very conciliatory, recognizes significant dissatisfaction with EU throughout Europe, meeting with others heads of Government to discuss. There will be a lot of noise from the European die hards because they recognize there is now a real risk to the project.

precisely, if they had recognised this before, or not just ignored it, then there wouldn't be so much unrest around Europe and people might think things were a bit less autocratic, and the UK may not have voted to leave.

Brought this on themselves I reckon, by not addressing the most important of Camerons issues.

We should be shouting at Boris to make it happen

Abso-bleedin-lutely.

Gove, Johnson et al have played a massive part in this. They have got their way. Now we need to put them to the test. They need to start feeling the heat right about now.

I hope they have a jolly good piss-up tonight, because tomorrow the hangover starts - and they've got to sort it out.

Why did they not have a campaign where every person who had a conviction to remain would try their best to persuade a leaver to change their mind and support them with positive reasons?

In retrospect I wish I had done more to try to sway people. I never sank to the levels that seem to be prevalent on here.

I feel sick. I wish we could go back. I've not felt like this about anything non-personal before.

Maybe I should have been out knocking on doors. My staunch conservative elderly neighbourhood would have been hard to persuade but I didn't try. 🙄

Read wrong chart - Ignore

What's more it seems to have been glossed over that whilst there might be will in Scotland for another referendum that isn't something they have control over - it is in the hands of Westminster, and I can't see them being in any hurry to give Scotland another vote, not at least until well after any exit from the EU is complete

Can you think of a party in Scotland that might use that 100% to their advantage? I posted on the last page that the SNP will want Boris(or similar) to have his feet under the table a while before making a move. I am now 100% certain that the UK will split up with not just Scotland but NI going.
If the SNP holds a ref and the support is overwhelming, would that then force a pressured Westminster who's voters are following the subsidy junky line, to cut us loose and cave in? If folk can follow the bollocks spouted by leave, then the above is hardly a flight of fancy.

...on which note, apologies if it's already been done, but I've not seen it mentioned (I did only skim most of the last 20 pages and haven't read much of the previous 180):

In 1979 the Scottish Devolution Referendum had a similar proportion of the popular vote in favour - yet that didn't result in the formation of a Scottish Assembly. Why? Because there was a 40% threshold of the total electorate in order for change to happen.

Only 37% of the total electorate voted to leave the EU. Now of course no threshold has been set in this referendum - to have done so would be nonsensical as it's not a real binding referendum. But the precedent for referendums in the UK is there if anybody is brave enough to refer to it.

Only 37% of the total electorate voted to leave the EU. Now of course no threshold has been set in this referendum - to have done so would be nonsensical as it's not a real binding referendum. But the precedent for referendums in the UK is there if anybody is brave enough to refer to it.

The amount of smug remainers who chose to insult and belittle leavers rather than engage with them and was massive.

You can't engage with BS - that is why its such a smart political strategy. Alex Salmond almost pulled it off, and Bojo and Co did.

There was the Beeb's political analysis guest (John someone from Uni of Stirling) stating this morning that the #1 reason why Leave won was they identified a current problem (sic) in immigration (no really) and give a solution (keep the buggers out) whereas Remain could only identify future problems.

So moral of the story in the post-truth politics world - is don't worry about the truth. Focus on one/two things and run hard with them irrespective of the truth. Preferably with a side dish of prejudice.

Modern democracies operate within a framework of rationalism. Dismantle it and the space is filled by prejudice. Fear counts above reason; anger above evidence. Lies claim equal status with facts. Soon enough, migrants — and Muslims especially — replace heretics and witches as the targets of public rage.

Quite - the FT

[quote=duckman ]If the SNP holds a ref

They can't (not without agreement from Westminster) they have no mandate to do so. They can make a lot of noise about it, but they can't legally hold a referendum.

Why did they not have a campaign where every person who had a conviction to remain would try their best to persuade a leaver to change their mind and support them with positive reasons?

I tried on a three poeple, but they just kept spouting off about immigrants. Which made me sad.

[quote=mikewsmith ]given the expectations leave has created it's very optimistic.

Well reality is about to bite those expectations. Something has to give. My apologies, I'm probably being too optimistic here, but somebody has to be.

[quote=mikewsmith ]how would you challenge people who lied through their teeth and stuck fingers in their ears when challenged, how about those that dismissed all the "so called" experts as being biased?

That might have been the case for the hardcore - those whose minds you wouldn't have changed whatever you said or did - but there was a significant amount of softer voters who were more open to being provided with good arguments against leaving. I doubt those people appreciated being insulted, if anything it probably entrenched their views. I should know, I nearly was one (I'm not ashamed to admit it - I worked out the implications in time).

edit: I'd put those spouting off about immigrants as being the hardcore - the reality of that argument was so obvious that you did have to genuinely be a bit daft to believe it. Plenty of Leave voters who had no problem with immigration though.

hes grumpy like me..

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/it-will-take-an-age-to-recover-from-this-victory-for-the-exit-fantasists-zzfpxsc66

Good swerve; fact remains, we will be off.

Well reality is about to bite those expectations. Something has to give. My apologies, I'm probably being too optimistic here, but somebody has to be.

I doubt those people appreciated being insulted, if anything it probably entrenched their views. I should know, I nearly was one (I'm not ashamed to admit it - I worked out the implications in time).

edit for your edit

Leave still have not and at no point during the campaign gave any info/reason or fact as to how the UK could be improved outside of the EU, or how the EU actually held the UK back. Now is the moment of truth.... all those slogans are about to be tested

The whole "immigrants taking our jobs" is rubbish of course, as the point of the EU is that it is reciprocal, So if an immigrant takes your job, go to his country and take his. Except chances are you are probably a lazy tosser so can't be bothered (which is the real issue here)

I feel sick. I wish we could go back.

Me too.

well i turned up to work today feeling sick and had a massive amount of menschenhass. the lads at work told me i was no longer eligable to work until further notice... so i went for a swim.

still felt sick.

now just feeling kinda empty.

More worrying than just the uk is the effect on the whole europe 'project'. With the far right getting stronger all of the time this is a bad moment for this to happen. I cant see the uk getting off lightly with this 🙁

Aracer - bet they try anyway. And kicking up a fuss in a time of uncertainty is often incredibly effective.

They can't (not without agreement from Westminster) they have no mandate to do so. They can make a lot of noise about it, but they can't legally hold a referendum.

Maybe but BJ is no fan of Scotland, if he is next PM then he'll hand it to us on a plate.

So please don't label them all as racists or ignorant

They might not all have been racists, but they have certainly been grossly ignorant of the reality of brexit

[quote=mikewsmith ]Yep but it's now too late.

Not really - we're talking about the way forward here and you seem to be suggesting that the expectations of the Leave side will limit what we can do. I'm simply pointing out that at some point soon the reality of those expectations will become so clear that they can't be ignored and we will no longer be limited by them.

The vote was to leave the eu. How do you now stay? The eu was never the problem.

[quote=maxtorque ]The whole "immigrants taking our jobs" is rubbish of course, as the point of the EU is that it is reciprocal, So if an immigrant takes your job, go to his country and take his. Except chances are you are probably a lazy tosser so can't be bothered (which is the real issue here)

That is a bit of a silly argument though - because different living costs in different countries mean that flow of labour one way makes a lot more sense than the other (I'm not suggesting the original suggestion is correct, simply that that's a poor counter).

It's very quiet at Number 11. Where's Gideon?

Blame

Cameron, Cameron ,Cameron...

No one voted based on the Brexit lies, we were just sick of the same, with no end in sight.

Austerity, we were never "All in this together" and now ironically Camerons looking for a Job along with the guys n girls from Port Talbot & Cadburys & Citroen & Dagenham etc. etc..

P.S. little tip - it's a bit thick to take away housewives pensions in the months before a referendum

and getting Mr.Spiresau to sit down to tea with Keith Vaz was a highlight too.

No need for a Chancellor when you have no economy....

Austerity, we were never "All in this together" and now ironically Camerons looking for a Job along with the guys n girls from Port Talbot & Cadburys & Citroen & Dagenham etc. etc..

And now we've shown them - oh yes, we have voted to extend austerity by another 1-2 years at best.

That showed 'em.

This referendum result should be put in the dictionary as the definition of a pyrrhic victory.

Morning Stanley moving 2000 bankers according to BBC website.
I would have thought Banks would be happy to stay.

Blame

Cameron, Cameron ,Cameron...

Alternatively - Blame the EU

Cameron went to them and said "give us a better deal, that respects the concerns of the British people, or mark my words, we'll be off"

They thought that Britain was bluffing, Their arrogance led to them not believing that we would really do it.

They were wrong

Wheres Gideon?

[img] [/img]

Sources at Morgan Stanley tell BBC it's already begun process of moving 2,000 London based investment banking staff to Dublin or Frankfurt

Oh yes, we a really going to miss the bankers.
Does that mean next time their greed tanks the world economy, we will be exempt?

No one voted based on the Brexit lies, we were just sick of the same, with no end in sight.

massive assumption of other people's motives being the same as yours? R5Live just intereviewed workers in a factory in Midland:

"I voted to leave because of the 350 million that could be spent on the NHS. I've woken up today to be told that was a lie. I'm in turmoil"

igm - Member

Aracer - bet they try anyway. And kicking up a fuss in a time of uncertainty is often incredibly effective

One man's fuss is another's elected reps looking out for their constituents interests.

Wheres Gideon?

He's tweeting about G7 bank liquidity (well someone in his team is under his name).

IMF and Airbus saying the divorce should work together to minimise any economic damage.

FTSE 100 not looking too bad at all now, with some winners.

And so it begins.

Morgan Stanley announce 2000 london jobs to go to Dublin or Frankfurt.

oops, beaten to it.

[img] [/img]

The thing that appeared to be lost on all those who claimed migrants were taking their jobs is, if a bloke who can barely speak the language can travel half way across europe, with no contacts, and then take your job....you must have been pretty rubbish at your job in the first place...

I also find it quite ironic that the areas that voted to leave will be the hardest hit by this disaster. If Redcar thinks it has austerity now, just wait until our man Boris unloads the full fat version on them...

What a thoroughly depressing morning....

The banks can't keep a good part of their operation in the city as they need the passporting arrangements financial services firm enjoy.

They want to get it done now and not in two years as it will take time to get the new operation up and running.

London has suddenly become a lot less attractive to the very firms that (like it or loathe it) power this country's economy.

But it's ok - now we're free of all the red tape that made London attractive and to trade freely across Europe we'll be so much better off...

No one voted based on the Brexit lies, we were just sick of the same, with no end in sight.

"I voted to leave because of the 350 million that could be spent on the NHS. I've woken up today to be told that was a lie. I'm in turmoil"

Similar was reported on 5live approx 20mins ago, they interviewed a woman who voted to leave citing that was one of her main reasons.

One man's fuss is another's elected reps looking out for their constituents interests.

Undeniably Duckman