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Oh teh ironing...
A UKIP MEP using European Parliament privileges to stay a case of libel damages in a UK court...Surely this is exactly the sort of behaviour the Brexits would stop? 😆
[url= http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2016/1166.html ]Here if you need a cure for insomnia [/url]
Surely this is exactly the sort of behaviour the Brexits would stop?
There's a very obvious way you could vote to stop it. 😆
Sbob - in one example you gave, someone is making money, in another someone is losing money.
Net contributor is a funny one, does it take into account intangible benefits or the likes of research contributions such as ITER that we get free access to the knowledge gained upon its conclusion?
The politicians love to get bogged down in pointless arguments and rabbit holes that is why the general public are so exasberated with them and the 350 million payment to the EU or whatever it is is a classic example. It's a crap argument for leaving the EU especially when there are so many other much stronger arguments. I'd rather listen to real people from a decent cross section of industries and fields. I liked the argument Marin Lewis has give on approaching it as a balance of risks (recognising that there are risks in staying too) and I like what Dyson had to say. I'm also mindful of what the science and research community have to say too.
One thing i'm learning about the EU is the long term prospect of it, or rather diminishing prospects of it - reducing GDP's, reducing share of global trade as its economy is significantly outpaced by the economies of the ROW, reducing population, ageing populations in most of the main and key countries, increasing unemployment etc. growing dissatisfaction with the EU by most of the main and key member states, and the EU member states share of their say being ever more diluted as more and more hopeless nations join the EU. In the top 20 countries by GDP there are only 6 that are in the EU and 3 of those are not in great economic shape.
Either way the EU is going to change over the next 40 years moreso than it has done over the last 40 years and nobody knows how - that's the risk. It either stays as it is and moves to the USofE, or will radically reformed and then who know's how that will end up and if it will be beneficial for us or not.
I still don't know how i'll vote, but at the moment the risks of staying in are looking more and more worrying and risky than I ever guessed before. Also I work for a global company and can see with my own eyes the growing irrelevance of the established western economies as the main global focus turns away from the US and EU and onto the far more lucrative and faster growing economies of India, China and the Asia Pacific region. The EU with all its bureaucracy and dilly-dallying simply cannot operate quickly enough to operate in that environment where big decisions are made in hours not years as issues are endlessly debated and negotiated amongst an ever increasing number of member states all with their own individual interests, problems and inter political issues and rivalries. It all seems a bit hopeless.
^^^
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Yougov:
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[I]b r suggested a better analogy of £350 million/week to EU vs £114 billion/year lost from household income was to somehow turn those figures into drop in household income. My point was that the £350 million (£150 million) isn't paid directly from the household budget, nor could any calculated difference between increases in GDP be directly equated with a loss from the household budget, and so the "better analogy" doesn't really stand. [/I]
Yes I know they're aren't the same and you can't really connect them, but for the average person they need to be aware of what they are voting for and the implication of it - we're running a monster deficit (with an ever-climbing debt) and the last thing we need is the 'world' thinking we might not be able to pay our 'bills'.
We've signed a treaty saying anyone here legally can stay, it's also been repeated numerous times we wil not deport anyone. This is actually one keynreason we need to trigger Artcile 50 immediately so there is no mad rush to beat the deadline. As an aside there are 3m Europeans (by birth) living in the UK and 1.3m Brits living in Europe.
All the Brits living abroad will stay put. As I have posted before there are many many thousands of Brits who win property and to all intents and purposes live in countries where we have no freedom of movement, for example the US.
some old bat
How very respectful of you
As I have posted before there are many many thousands of Brits who win property and to all intents and purposes live in countries where we have no freedom of movement, for example the US.
You have posted a great many things but not exactly all of them turned out to be true. Your claim about what Gove said on Sky being just the latest example. If anyone is in doubt about their residence status I recommend that they don't rely on you for guidance.
This vexes me. The EU economy is a few percentage points smaller than the US economy. The UK economy is the fifth largest in the world - but that's at 17% of the size of the EU or US economy. The big economies are really big (US, China, Japan) and then there's the rest of us. Germany is 4th and France is 6th. Yes, the world is changing. Other economies are growing rapidly. Why do we want to go it alone when our negotiating power is so much less than the EU's (even without us)? I don't agree with all of TTIP but that's going to be signed way before any US-UK trade deal. Why would China (or Brazil or India) work with us ahead of an entity five times our size?
Whilst we sit around negotiating whatever comes after Brexit, the EU won't be sitting around worrying that much about it. It'll be also be expanding its markets into all the places that the Brexit optimists are saying we'll be selling our wares - Germany's fantastic balance of trade isn't based on selling to us, it's based on selling to China. They won't be on our side any more and we won't be on theirs. That doesn't look particularly pleasant.
Meanwhile the 'freedom of movement isn't negotiable' lot are either going to have to change their tune (in which case 'rebranding' is probably the best description I've seen of this whole sorry exercise) or there's going to be an almighty shitstorm and a lot of the things we take for granted are going down the river.
Clover the EU is not about negotiating with the rest of the world, its about creating a single market with protectionist barriers and regulations. Germany and France in particular have a weaker currency than they would have outside the euro which boosts their exporting power. It isn't about growth and negotiating power its about protecting the old school.
TTIP: a lot of the rest of the EU don't want it particularly France and Germnay where there have been major demonstrations against it. It may well never be signed without us in the EU which is one reason the wants us in the EU as a friendly voice on the inside.
DrJ fhey can rely on the Lord Chancellor Chief of Justice both on Sky and in other interviews he's given as I said. No of course no one should rely on anything posted on an internet forum.
By protecting the old school do you mean protecting European jobs? Or protecting the environment?
Struggling to have a problem with either of those.
Ninfan
Amused that the remainders are getting all upset and calling people 'little Englanders' over football fans singing "ten German bombers"
Knock yourself out,identifying with the actions of the "supporters" says a bit about you.
First the Ultras and Russian fans actions. Are we going to condemn them or bash the actions of pissedup idiots who know one likes.
Some reading folks on leave:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/six-best-reasons-vote-leave/
Clover the EU is not about negotiating with the rest of the world,[long winded ad hom]...TTIP:
Your ability to negate your own point remains undimmed
DrJ fhey can rely on the Lord Chancellor Chief of Justice
You failed to get his job title correct 😀
I doubt we can rely on him and we certainly cannot rely on your recall of what he said so in your appeal to the legal authority of the journalist turned politician you will have to actually substantiate the claim to an actual time and LAW rather than just be this vague .
Can you not just link to it please as otherwise we will have to assume your memory has let you down again,
[i]TTIP: a lot of the rest of the EU don't want it particularly France and Germnay where there have been major demonstrations against it. It may well never be signed without us in the EU which is one reason the wants us in the EU as a friendly voice on the inside.[/i]
Which kinda implies that there's a greater chance of signing up to TTIP than if we remain - as in we'll be given no choice by the US. So a vote to leave is a vote for TTIP, but then reading your posts Jamba I'm assuming that this is what you'd want?
What really matters is that you should have the power to remove the people who govern you
Who gioverns you?
I
They really know how to convince me 😕 Blackmail as a last throw of the dice 🙄 Dickheads 😐
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36509931 ]They're going to do this irrespective of the result anyway...[/url]
DrJ fhey can rely on the Lord Chancellor Chief of Justice both on Sky and in other interviews he's given as I said. No
Yes, you said so, but you were wrong, as I pointed out above.
Can we likewise rely on the Lord High Executioner (or whatever you want to call him today) when he says the Tories would be intervening to save the Welsh steel industry if not for the nasty EU?
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/news-room/20151120IPR03669/EU-needs-to-boost-its-steel-industry-say-MEPs
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tata-steel-uk-government-accused-of-failing-to-protect-british-workers-by-blocking-eu-plans-to-allow-a6962446.html
Or is that just more made up porkies?
No I am not. Gove has said repeatedly including on that Sky show that people legally in the UK are protected by law and have the right to remain. He also pointed out that Brits living in Europe are protected by the same law. Whether they will get free health care is a different question. Add on top of this the economic benefits retired Brits bring to generally poor areas of Europe and its clear very little if anything is going to change. The UK quite simply is not going to start deporting people living and working here.
Well, jamba, no point in just stating again my account of the Sky show - readers can make their own minds up whether to believe your account or not, based on your track record and the links you have provided.
Clover the EU is not about negotiating with the rest of the world, its about creating a single market with protectionist barriers and regulations.
What a crock. Not only does membership of the EU give up privileged access to a market of over 550million people, it facilitates trade to most other major economies including the majority of the commonwealth.
Who says so? The body that represent British business.
Who should we believe......? Them or a group that perpetuates lies throughout the campaign - as for Gove this was a guy who was very happy to tell direct lies with not shame at all.
Narcissism is a poor reason for making important decisions
Germany and France in particular have a weaker currency than they would have outside the euro which boosts their exporting power.
What an odd argument. If they were not interest in global trade why would a weaker currency be an advantage?
Gove has said repeatedly including on that Sky that we send, yes actually send (he was adamant about that) £350m a week to the UK.
FTFY. His credibility is now close to zero. He has no shame as we saw. Personal politics overrides the truth.
Brexit BS - the epitome of post truth politics and shameful at that.
Owen Jones - Brexit dominates amongst the working class - close to 2:1
[i]If Britain crashes out of the European Union in two weeks, it will be off the back of votes cast by discontented working-class people. When Andy Burnham warns that the remain campaign has “been far too much Hampstead and not enough Hull”, he has a point. [b]Even Labour MPs who nervously predict remain will scrape it nationally report their own constituencies will vote for exit[/b]. Polling consistently illustrates that the lower down the social ladder you are, the more likely you are to opt for leave. Of those voters YouGov deems middle-class, 52% are voting for remain, and just 32% for leave. Among those classified as working-class, the figures are almost the reverse: 36% for remain, 50% for leave. The people Labour were founded to represent are the most likely to want Britain to abandon the European Union.[/i]
Well jamba - this is a novelty - quoting Owen Jones as authority!!
[i]So a vote to leave is a vote for TTIP, but then reading your posts Jamba I'm assuming that this is what you'd want? [/i]
Since you've ignored the question, I'll ask it again.
Cameron wins the BS scaremongering award of the day,only 9 hours for the brexiters to scoop it.
'Lower down the ladder' that is insulting to those forgot and ignored by the Tories.
Those voting in. You do realise Cameron will take this as a green light to push through big changes, cuts and more privatisation. An agreement with Dave is more harmonisation, more privatisation. Just wait and see.
Hora, whilst I disagree with your argument I at least credited you as being above the "a vote for x is a vote for y" bs.
I haven't studied TTIP enough to have a view, I know there are many opposed, plenty of 38 Degrees emails campaigning against. I would prefer a situation where we negotiate whats best for us whuch imho has little to do with what the French or Germans want. We don't need a deal with the US, our focus should be on Asia that being a priority over the EU too imo.
An agreement with Dave is more harmonisation, more privatisation. Just wait and see.
Whereas a vote for Boris, Gove and IDS is a vote for ... ?
If you want to go that way none of the above would win an election.
Dave stands shoulder to shoulder with Bliar, Brown other wretched pokiticians.
[i]. I would prefer a situation where we negotiate whats best for us[/i]
Agree, but highly unlikely as the US are pushing this one onto us/EU.
You ought to read how countries (including us) 'negotiated' with China after the Boxer Rebellion, we'll be in their position...
I haven't studied TTIP enough to have a view,
Just the way the EU are trying to keep it:
You do realise Cameron will take this as a green light to push through big changes, cuts and more privatisation. An agreement with Dave is more harmonisation, more privatisation. Just wait and see.
He wont do anything different-complete non sequitur premise.
What exactly do you think Gove, IDS, and Boris will do if we vote leave then Hora?
Become rampantly left wing, protect business and look after the working classes?
. Gove has said repeatedly including on that Sky show that people legally in the UK are protected by law and have the right to remain.
If he has said it loads of times it should be even easier to get a link and find the law so what stopping you?
[i] Junkyard
What exactly do you think Gove, IDS, and Boris will do if we vote leave then Hora?Become rampantly left wing, protect business and [b]look after the working classes?[/b][/i]
What, like the EU did?
Unfortunately, the working classes have experienced, first hand. What the EU is currently doing for them.
Cutting them off at the knees, in terms of being able to ask for a better wage as free movement has effectively undercut UK workers.
Yay the revolution, eh?
🙄
Cutting them off at the knees, in terms of being able to ask for a better wage as free movement has effectively undercut UK workers.
The logic of that then is surely that if we leave the EU, and can no longer hire cheap Polish labour, that Sterling will devalue until expensive UK wages match cheap foreign ones.
Whether that's good or bad I can't say.
[i] oldnpastit - Member
Whether that's good or bad I can't say.[/i]
Well, you could ask Alan Sugar. But remember, Sir sugar likes cheap labour, a lower wage bill contributes the the profit column and pleases the share holders.
LMFAO at business leaders urging us to remain. Conflict of interest??
But remember, Sir sugar likes cheap labour, a lower wage bill contributes the the profit column and pleases the share holders.
Hmmm, share holders == pension funds.
Here is a view that sort of expresses my own opinion
http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/krugman/2016/06/12/notes-on-brexit/
[i]oldnpastit - Member
Hmmm, share holders == pension funds.[/i]
Exactly. Beautiful, isn't? The Elite have the rest of us bagged and tagged!
Oh, but hold on, EU will save us!
Riiiiiiight
LMFAO at business leaders urging us to remain. Conflict of interest??
I'm getting pretty exasperated at this sort of fatuous comment. Yes, business leaders get a poor wrap - "fat cats" etc, but business is about forecasting future performance and then meeting plan.
That might be very good for fat cat bonuses - [b]BUT ITS FWKING ESSENTIAL[/b] for all the employees delivering that plan....
Plans slip - markets change etc, but it's uncertainty that screws it up... And if it's looking like the plan's going to drift then it's hold on recruitment first, and cut back headcount second...
I don't give a flying fig if a few Chief Execs "retire early" - what we're talking about is the livelihoods of very many ordinary employees.
All the shite ^^ about UK being big enough, smart enough etc to adapt to changed markets may well be right, but at what cost???
Sad to sound ageist, but the demographics here have all the hallmarks of a last selfish indulgence of the baby boomer generation, aided and abetted by the wilful right wing idealagogues and the misinformed.
free movement has effectively undercut UK workers.
Yes that minimum wage has plummeted of late
Its amazing to see rampant right wingers suddenly give a shit about the poor including those who opposed the social charter and the minimum wage
The Elite have the rest of us bagged and tagged!
and back to my original point
on the one hand Dave and George osborne
V Boris , IDS, Gove and Farage
Its a choice between one right wing elite or another right wing elite that is the same but a bit more racist and lies about GAS about poor working class folk.
The debate standard and the lazy tropes are risible
LMFAO at business leaders urging us to remain. Conflict of interest??
You know a lot of us normal people work for those same companies, don't you?