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A Labour vote is STILL a vote FOR Brexit…
Not really
Yes, really
Which bit of "Labour respects the result of the referendum, and Britain is leaving the EU." are you struggling with, comrade?
yup
as of today, the official Labour website still says:
Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.
I that interpret as, 'we are not going to attempt to remain, or have a people's vote'.
So I'll be voting Green (possibly LD) in the coming GE this autumn.
Some very deluded Labour supporters on here....
One can only hope they wake up & smell the coffee before it’s too late - ‘cos Corbyn ain’t riding to your rescue on a red unicorn if you’re a Remainer......if you’re a Brexiteer however....
🦄🦄🦄
You know that “because, technology” claim…
I think we've had enough of experts etc
Some very deluded Labour supporters on here
That you assume anyone who disagrees with you has to be a Labour supporter is rather telling.
They didn't say that though, did they.
Labour supporters? Thats a sweeping statement. Don't you be lumping them in with all those ****ing Blairites!
They know who the real enemy is...
"That you assume anyone who disagrees with you has to be a Labour supporter is rather telling."
Is it?
Oh do tell!
[ attempts to escape the circle of "will he, won't he" - "has he, hasn't he" Corbyn nonsense ]
Canada Is Refusing To Roll Over Its EU Trade Agreement For The UK If There's A No-Deal Brexit
“Post-Brexit, any future trade arrangement between Canada and the UK would be influenced by the terms of the withdrawal agreed between the UK and the EU, as well as any unilateral UK approaches.”
Probably a key moment … and the change in tone and content of Fox's contributions to the Brexit debate over the last few weeks suggests he has a good idea of what's coming … that a no deal Brexit will hit exports into non-EU countries as well as into EU ones.
I dunno, under ordinary circumstances I'd be a Labour supporter, however I'm so f***** off with the flip-flopping over Brexit and the nasty, occasionally antisemitic Corbynite t**ts on twitter that I've cancelled my membership in protest. I know that I'm not the only one who has done this.
flip-flopping
Weird cos everyone else on here has spent the last year complaining that labour policy hasn't changed.
I can't speak for "everyone", but Labour policy has changed … the effort that went into moving Corbyn into a position of support for even "a" Customs Union by many inside the Labour movement was considerable. That was a move, and in the right direction. Another recent move was that Labour now supports a referendum on any Brexit deal that this government gets (a policy adopted 2 years too late to achieve anything). So little, so slow, with the same key people fighting any move away from the original "trigger A50 now" Hardest of Brexits with no second chance for the public to vote against it that Corbyn got right behind after the referendum went marginally "against" what he "campaigned" for.
(In my opinion) the perception of "flip-flopping" partly comes from key Labour people saying one thing, only for another key Labour person being sent out to contradict them. Often on the same day. Often after having been in the same meeting with Corbyn, yet coming away with diametrically opposing understandings about what he has said and agreed to as regards Brexit policy.
Meanwhile, BBC reporting take up of foreign language in schools dropping as parents tell their kids they won’t need another language after Brexit.
That's hilarious when half of the parents couldn't even be bothered to learn a first language properly.
Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.
I that interpret as, ‘we are not going to attempt to remain, or have a people’s vote’.
That's the problem though, it's a Trump Statement. It's big on words but low on content, you could interpret it any way you like (which I'd bet is exactly as designed).
I mean, it's possible to respect the result without treating it as a mandate, and if they're going to put the national interest first then that means withdrawing A50. Alternatively through more pineapple-ringed vision it could be taken to mean that the referendum result must be obeyed and brexit at all costs, will of the people three years ago and all that.
;That’s hilarious when half of the parents couldn’t even be bothered to learn a first language properly
"Don't learn French Darren itz just not wurf it!"
*Said in squawking chav east midlands accent*
the perception of “flip-flopping” partly comes from key Labour people saying one thing, only for another key Labour person being sent out to contradict them
So Corbyn sent out the likes of Tom Watson to contradict him and confuse everyone? I presume Blair is in on this conspiracy too? No doubt Chukka is a deep cover spy sent to the libdems to undermine their teenage bollocks to brexit campaign?
> sigh <
No, I mean his key front benchers.
This is my last engagement with you in this thread @dazh, sorry, just too tedious.
Yeah I know I was winding you up. But there is a point here, because if I say that the likes of McDonnell, Thornberry etc have said that labour are for a second referendum, the response here is that its not official policy on the website, yet you're doing exactly the same thing from the opposite point of view. This is the problem, in that everyone is essentially making it up to justify their own view rather than taking things at face value, which is that this is a very complex and almost impossible problem which is not going to be solved by simple black and white opinions.
;That’s hilarious when half of the parents couldn’t even be bothered to learn a first language properly
“Don’t learn French Darren itz just not wurf it!”
*Said in squawking chav east midlands accent*
It's great that we can sneer at those less fortunate. The BBC article does link the downturn in modern languages to Brexit, but the article's scope looks at deprived areas. I know some of the stories of both pupils and parents from deprived areas, and it can often be pretty crap. I might disagree with it, but I can understand why parents may question the usefulness of learning another language over perhaps doing another subject.
The uptake of French and German at GCSE level has been on a steep decline since 2003, so it seems the requirement to study a foreign language up to GCSE level until 2001 kept the numbers of pupils taking these subjects higher than would normally be the case.
I bet numbers of remainers children taking these subjects has also declined a lot in the last 15 years.
Using crass generalisations from limited information to degrade the intelligence of the other side is not a good look in my book.
so it seems the requirement to study a foreign language up to GCSE level until 2001 kept the numbers of pupils taking these subjects higher than would normally be the case
And should be reintroduced. Perhaps post Brexit a government could reintroduce the requirement, to emphasise both a "global Britain" approach and a commitment to education. I'd guess that the numbers of pupils taking maths is currently higher than would normally be the case, because it is mandatory.
2017 election results in your constituency: lab 25,683, Con 21,308, LibDem 912. You have a simple choice between a party which wants a no deal, or one which has committed to holding a second referendum on any deal. If ever there was a constituency where voting libdem will split the labour vote and ensure the tories win this is it.
The problem with this approach is that it ensures we only ever have two parties capable of forming a government. At some point, folk need to commit to a third party, to show that they might be in with a chance at the next election or the one after that. That'll then swing others. We complain about politicians being short-termist and yet the electorate acts the same way, not seeing beyond the immediate ballot. There has never been a better chance to break the two-party Westminster system than now.
All they need to do is teach the kids to say " hello my name is Stan I'd like to talk to you about your energy bills" in Hindi.
Using crass generalisations from limited information to degrade the intelligence of the other side is not a good look in my book.
TBF it was rayban and he's the STW snob-in-chief so probably not representative of the whole.
TBF it was rayban and he’s the STW snob-in-chief so probably not representative of the whole.
Possibly. Cougar should know better though.
It’s great that we can sneer at those less fortunate. The BBC article does link the downturn in modern languages to Brexit, but the article’s scope looks at deprived areas. I know some of the stories of both pupils and parents from deprived areas, and it can often be pretty crap. I might disagree with it, but I can understand why parents may question the usefulness of learning another language over perhaps doing another subject.
I spent the majority of my childhood in the east mids going to a shitty rural comp, so I feel totally entitled to make that disparaging comment.
It's only the British working classes that question the usefulness of learning another language, having a lot of EU friends and a non-EU wife I've had my eyes totally opened to just how important parents of all social classes view a second language in other countries. The poor attitude towards languages is a very British disease, it's a symptom of our insularity, anti-intellectualism and entitlement to our standard of living and place in the world.
Tolkien hit the mark with his vision of the shire, we're a nation of hobbits - only in the books the hobbits win and everything stays fine and dandy.
All they need to do is teach the kids to say ” hello my name is Stan I’d like to talk to you about your energy bills” in Hindi.
Or how to suggest a wine pairing in Mandarin. 😀
This is my last engagement with you in this thread @dazh, sorry, just too tedious.
It's only just got tedious? Lighten up man. This thread stopped being anything serious a long time ago. Perhaps we should petition the powers that be to close it until Halloween when we can all come back and laugh at how wrong we all were? You never know, Binners might well have turned back into a lefty again by then. 🙂
so it seems the requirement to study a foreign language up to GCSE level until 2001 kept the numbers of pupils taking these subjects higher than would normally be the case
And should be reintroduced.
I actually expect a lot of the drop is down to inability to recruit teachers.
I actually expect a lot of the drop is down to inability to recruit teachers.
Can we think of any reason why that could be getting worse? And is very likely to get worse still? Ever decreasing circles…
But recruitment isn't the main issue beyond years 7/8/9, demand is… all the local sixth forms have dropped French at A-level now because the class sizes are just too small for the funding to make sense. We're are turning our back on learning languages as a nation, at least in the state sector.
it’s a symptom of our insularity, anti-intellectualism and entitlement to our standard of living and place in the world.
Or it’s a symptom of English being the world language, so what’s the point of learning, say, German? While their culture and history are fascinating, if you’re a British kid, would you really pick it over a stem subject? If you’re a non-Anglophone kid, learning English is a no-brainier. That report did say Spanish was on the up, maybe a language that lots of people speak makes more sense.
This is my last engagement with you in this thread @dazh, sorry, just too tedious
Probably for the best.
It's exactly the same empty, fallacious nonsense we've seen with teamchewmoredickman and pro-Brexit in it's entirety; all dressed up in some pseudo-intellectual obfuscation that falls apart under any scrutiny and as he's happy to admit just turns into trolling to wind other posters up.
Ironically why he flounced 100 pages ago.
if you’re a British kid, would you really pick it over a stem subject?
The stats don't back that up though, do they… kids aren't dropping languages to take on triple science, they are dropping them to take softer subjects because they find languages hard work (and they are). Making a language mandatory at years 10/11 is the only way to reverse the slide.
There has never been a better chance to break the two-party Westminster system than now.
The problem is a two party system seems to be a characteristic of FPTP voting. The probability is that one of the current parties would die back and be overtaken and we would go back to a two party system with slightly different actors.
Can we think of any reason why that could be getting worse?
Pay and conditions. Languages, Science and Maths are shortage subjects. I understand your point about less people doing the sybjects leads to less at uni to less teachers but my thought would be people leavingvteaching and not training to be teachers is the biggest issue.
https://getintoteaching.education.gov.uk/funding-and-salary/overview/funding-by-subject
28k bursary to become a teacher paid less than that for at least 3 years says it all really.
True as well (probably more important, I agree).
Of course, to add to the perfect storm… filling gaps with teachers from EEA countries is getting harder already.
kids aren’t dropping languages to take on triple science, they are dropping them to take softer subjects
They are not taking triple science because schools cant staff it we have a major shortage of physics teachers especially but science in general. My school in a nice area with good kids has lostv4 science teachers this year and not been able to recruit 1. We will have to cut the number of lessons of science a kid gets to make it work, whilst obviously being expected to improve results!!
I recognise that. I was just pointing out that kids are not replacing languages with more science… far from it… language and science is dropping together… and yes, staffing is central to this, it's far more than just pupil/parent choices. And, yes, funding is key to staffing, of course.
Re. Labour & two party politics: latest poll shows labour lowest ever rating. The two parties are Tory and Brexit Party
https://mobile.twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1146524127160872960
Fourth is fine… nothing to see here…
[ being less flippant, FPTP means that Labour would still probably be the second largest party in parliament, and the official opposition, even if that poll was a resonable approx of the real votes ]
pro-Brexit in it’s entirety
Aside from the fact that I voted remain, would do again in a heartbeat, and voted for the Green party in the euro elections so that Magid would get elected. Apart from that, yeah, totally pro-brexit.
On a serious note I'm really not trolling. Everything I've said I believe. It's not incompatible with being pro-EU membership. I'll repeat again though that I'm not joining in with the hysteria either against the labour party or against those who voted for leave, especially the working class ones who voted that way because it's the only way they could register a protest at being repeatedly f***** over by successive governments (yes, labour ones too).
Seems to me anyone who doesn't agree with the pervading group-think here is accused of being a troll. No different to facebook really, and about as real.
I spent the majority of my childhood in the east mids going to a shitty rural comp, so I feel totally entitled to make that disparaging comment. It’s only the British working classes that question the usefulness of learning another language, having a lot of EU friends and a non-EU wife I’ve had my eyes totally opened to just how important parents of all social classes view a second language in other countries. The poor attitude towards languages is a very British disease, it’s a symptom of our insularity, anti-intellectualism and entitlement to our standard of living and place in the world.
Disparage away if it makes you feel good.
I too went to a fairly shitty high school, and have many EU and non EU friends. As other have said English is rightly or wrongly the language of choice for the majority. This is not down to any high brow reasoning to learn a foreign language but rather to get the jokes of their favourite and globally prominent pop culture TV shows in their original language. I have friends that learned English to understand the Simpsons or to comprehend Arnie's one liners in Predator. Learning the equivalent pop culture references in French or German TV may not be high on the priority list of the Wolverhapton teenager whose mum is the victim of domestic abuse by an alcoholic father.
At some point, folk need to commit to a third party
They already have , but tuck your head back in and continue believing your denial that BREXIT isn't a party and labour and conservatives are the two options.
Labours worst ever poll result according to yougov
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1146525049643569153?s=19
Whether it's the trade union bosses advising him or Corbyn himself, labours Brexit stance is killing them
Whether it’s the trade union bosses advising him or Corbyn himself, labours Brexit stance is killing them
Agree but it is still hard to know what a remain stance would have done. They would have taken a lot of Lib Dem vote but lost leavers vote (even more of them) to the Brexit party and Brexit party would be in the lead and probably at 30%+ which would be even worse.
lost leavers vote
They never really had the leavers vote in the first place.
See the numbers a few pages back. The biggest block of leave voters is middle class conservatives, followed by working class conservatives.
By most estimates, there are 3-4 million Labour leave voters. The question is could've a Labour party with a strong remain message have gained back or replaced those voters (in their constituencies) if it had wanted to. Probably, IMO. The vast majority of leave voters aren't interested in voting Labour. I think Labour chose a strategy and it didn't work. There's more than likely careers/reputations staked on that bet.
Shambles really. They are badly led, and the biggest opportunity they've had to get into power for a reasonably long stretch is slipping through their fingers for the sake of in-fighting
Or it’s a symptom of English being the world language, so what’s the point of learning, say, German? While their culture and history are fascinating, if you’re a British kid, would you really pick it over a stem subject? If you’re a non-Anglophone kid, learning English is a no-brainier. That report did say Spanish was on the up, maybe a language that lots of people speak makes more sense
Except it’s not just a case of foreign youngster just learning English because of tv (this will change btw as the Anglo sphere becomes less and less culturally dominant) - they learn plenty of other languages as well that their parents consider will be important. Mandarin, Japanese, Spanish etc. My wife’s friends from home can speak a mix of all of those - most of them are trilingual.
There’s also the small fact that kids who learn more than one language from a young age end up having higher iqs. So it’s not as if it’s pointless as a native English speaker.
https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1146655121666957313?s=21
Unite’s general secretary declared, unprompted, on The Andrew Marr Show, that I had “lost my marbles” over Brexit and should “stop putting pressure” on Jeremy Corbyn.
I fear Len McCluskey’s annoyance will intensify when those fighting to commit Labour to an unambiguous Remain position succeed. He and his allies have turned support for Brexit into an existential issue. For them — as Unite official Howard Beckett put it in a recent New Statesman piece — without a commitment to delivering Brexit, Labour becomes “Corbyn without Corbynism”.
And that is what, for many of us on the Labour left, this argument is really about: who gets to define what a left-wing Labour Party stands for? Five hundred thousand members, or a few officials at Unite’s HQ and their protégés in Corbyn’s office?
Well worth reading the full piece.
I've always been a close follower of Mason. If he's right, and I reckon he mostly is, then the only bit I'd disagree with is that the situation is recoverable. I admire his attempt to oppose the influence of McCluskey et al on Corbyn, but the only hope of keeping a lid on labour divisions in order to beat the tories was people like him and McCluskey keeping their differences in private. It's also somewhat disingenuous to criticise McCluskey et al but not Corbyn. McCluskey and Mason would do well to follow the example of McDonnell, who seems to be the only sane and rational person in the labour party right now.
Well, can’t say we didn’t tell you Daz, that Labours policy on Brexit would destroy them and not the tories.
McCluskey and Mason would do well to follow the example of McDonnell, who seems to be the only sane and rational person in the labour party right now.
The labour party is actually full of sane and rational people. McDonnell is just the only one of them on the front bench. And Corbyn is trying to get the sane and rational people deselected anyway to create a party stuffed with unhinged Marxists and see if he can get that polling down into single figures. Give it a week or two...
Its all academic anyway, as Magic Grandad is still locked in the bunker with Seamus and Len telling him that its all going brilliantly, the EU is evil and we're best off out of it and that he's definitely a shoe in as the next PM
Labours policy on Brexit would destroy them and not the tories.
It's already destroyed the tories if you hadn't noticed. It's not labour's brexit policy, it's the parliamentary arithmetic which has brought it all to the brink. Ironically wiping out May's majority in 2017 has damaged them as much as the tories.
Anyway, I still think predictions of the end of two party politics are wildly exaggerated. We'll see though. The only thing that's looking increasingly certain is a tory/brexit victory and a no deal brexit. In fact I almost think it's what many Corbyn haters want because it gives them an easy route to get rid of him. The same thing that happened in the tory party is happening in labour.
Anyway, I still think predictions of the end of two party politics are wildly exaggerated. We’ll see though.
I'm not so sure.
If the tories don't deliver (a No Deal) Brexit by 31st October, then surely a GE and farage is waiting in the wings to further dilute the tory vote?
.
It’s convenient that posters use such phrases – it saves the bother of reading the rest of their post to see if they have something sensible to say.
Absolutely, he's just a Muggle
It’s already destroyed the tories if you hadn’t noticed
The Tories are well under way to bouncing back under Bojo.
In fact I almost think it’s what many Corbyn haters want because it gives them an easy route to get rid of him.
Which would be completely hilarious considering Corbyn and the lexiters considered Brexit their route to power.
It’s not labour’s brexit policy, it’s the parliamentary arithmetic which has brought it all to the brink.
No it isn't, it is Labour completely unclear policy. And any clearness in the policy if you can find it goes against what majority of Labour members and voters actually want.
I was a member of the Labour party but quit a while back and now back the Green party who also have the same socialist ideals but have more integrity. Clearly they will never win an election and one of the reasons behind that is their name as it gives an impression that is all they stand for.
The poor attitude towards languages is a very British disease, it’s a symptom of our insularity, anti-intellectualism and entitlement to our standard of living and place in the world.
That's only part of it.
We learn languages at school. But we hate it, because it's done in a total vacuum, it's a pain in the arse, and we don't see the point.
Kids in say, Finland are exposed to English all over the place, many prime-time TV shoes are in English with subtitles, which is not only a great way to practice, but it also gives a reason to pay attention. When we learn French it's almost entirely an academic exercise.
Possibly. Cougar should know better though.
I wasn't commenting on the less fortunate, I was commenting on the shocking state of literacy demonstrated by some grown adults (and I wasn't so much 'sneering' as trying to do a funny, I wasn't being particularly serious).
I live in one of the most deprived wards in the country and I still managed to learn how to spell complicated words like "of." There is probably some correlation between upbringing and basic education but I doubt it's an exclusive one.
Kids in say, Finland are exposed to English all over the place, many prime-time TV shoes are in English with subtitles
Incredibly fortunately for us, it's also the language of the Internet. The vast majority of the Western world's web presence is in English (France aside).
I live in one of the most deprived wards in the country and I still managed to learn how to spell complicated words like “of.” There is probably some correlation between upbringing and basic education but I doubt it’s an exclusive one.
It's not one that has allowed any of the folks who are so desperate to remain they will pander to the EU FAILING to realise that eventually the EU will end and each country will go back to looking after number 1, the hand-out's that keep a lot of lazy bastards in work , will stop, I can see why they are worried. It's the Country version of being on state benefits depending on where you are in the pecking order.
If we don't stand on our own two feet or at least learn to instead of relying on hand-out's then all your worries about your kids futures will just be offset till their kids futures.
Short term pain.
Handouts? We pay our membership fee and that allows us to benefit from various colaberative ventures and funds..
I thought brexiters hated paying the extortionate membership fees that we get nothing in return for ?
But now you don't like all the 'handouts'? Lol.
Schroedinger’s EU...
EU FAILING
What failing? The EU has boosted the economies of its members. As of course it would. What part of 'working together for mutual benefit' is so difficult to understand?
EU failing? It's stopped us from fighting each other.
EU FAILING
I think there should be a full stop after "EU". That's how I read it, anyway...
Edit: not that I agree with the poster...
We will find out in about 50 pages when Phil comes back.
Kids in say, Finland are exposed to English all over the place, many prime-time TV shoes are in English with subtitles, which is not only a great way to practice, but it also gives a reason to pay attention. When we learn French it’s almost entirely an academic exercise.
Again, you're assuming people are just learning English these days - they aren't. Assuming that everyone is going to speak English in the future is again, typically anglo-centric.
Last year I sat in a bar in Spain while a Belgian ordered his drink in English.
English would have become the defacto language of the Eu.
We could have had an empire again.
while a Belgian ordered his drink in English.
No doubt a Flamand. A Wallon would have tried Spanish or assumed they'd understand French.
English would have become the defacto language of the Eu.
Yup.
Now they're either going to be speaking Esperanto or singing Deutschland Uber Alles.
They'll be speaking English just as much without us being in. It's not our language, any more than football is our sport. We're not even close to being the world's most important English speaking country in just about any field, anyway. If the UK completely vanished into a sink hole tomorrow, English would continue to be a major language in Europe and across the world.
Again, you’re assuming people are just learning English these days – they aren’t. Assuming that everyone is going to speak English in the future is again, typically anglo-centric.
No, not really. It's the most widely spoken language in the world, and not by us or even as a first language.
Wherever I go for work, Europeans are speaking to each other in English, because it's their first choice of second language to learn.
And it is also a lot easier to learn.
I would be equally disturbed by history teaching, if Ann Widecombe's understanding of slavery is anything to judge by. Of course the racist cow just doubled down on the comment, apparently if you abhor slavery and it's history you are just being melodramatic.
Really if you still support brexit, you need to take a big look at yourself and stop making excuses, you are supporting racism, and it isn't even disguised.
The Law of Widdicome
"If Widdicome takes a position on something, you can reasonably assume that the correct view is opposite to hers"
She's learnt the game quickly. Say something rancid during your slot in the EP. Retire to the boozer while the Leave.EU social media team splice it into a 'Watch as Widdecombe DESTROYS the EU unelected bureaucrats!'. The bot farms then get it trending and the Brexit Party dominates the media for the next 48 hours. Rinse and repeat (See also: BBC Question Time).
The best bit though is when deeply uncool middle aged dads who aren't as relevant as they used to be try and get in on the action by showing how outside the group think they are:
https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/1146849085128884224
No, not really. It’s the most widely spoken language in the world, and not by us or even as a first language.
It's considered that we have reached peak English, whilst the amount of people who are learning Mandarin as a foreign language has jumped from 30 million in 2004 to over 100 million today.
In Europe, not led by Europe, that’s what I say.
peak English
Not really. Proportionally China will be dwarfing everyone and everything, but in numbers, English and Spanish are still growing.
Anyway…
Leading Europe, not next to Europe, that’s what I say. Only one way to do that… get stuck in, not wibble on about slavery and the Nazis and how you don't understand how the EU works. Talk to someone in another EU country today please… let them know we're not all… well, you know… and you'll probably find English will work just fine.
It’s considered that we have reached peak English, whilst the amount of people who are learning Mandarin as a foreign language has jumped from 30 million in 2004 to over 100 million today.
How many people are learning Mandarin in preference to English? How many Chinese people are learning English versus how many non-Chinese people are learning Mandarin? Also, China being a fairly protectionist sort of place, I doubt that there are that many opportunities to actually use your Mandarin in the everyday world, whereas using English is a daily occurrence for much of the international business community. Which is much of the business community, at least in Europe. It's as if we had some sort of system that encouraged cross-border trade in Europe.
So Labour are a remain party today!? Colour me confused.
https://twitter.com/tom_watson/status/1147102998339960832