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He’s also a rare thing from either party- an MP that’s willing to be honest about our Brexit options!
Apparently not, since ...
Bit sad he didn’t back labours no deal motion,
This makes for terrifying reading - how Boris Johnson supporters poll
While only around a quarter of the wider British public support leaving the EU without a Brexit deal, an amazing 85% of Johnson’s supporters within the party are keen on a no-deal departure.
We really are totally ****ed! They'll elect him as PM, then gleefully cheer him on as he crashes the economy off a cliff.
Then probably start agitating for bringing back public hangings, smallpox and workhouses
Even if a tory comes across as seemingly okay a quick look at their voting record will soon show them voting against human rights, against sexual equality, against welfare and for things such as hunting etc, etc
Maybe. But I'd rather have Rory in opposition than Johnson, May or Cameron, at least Rory has shown himself to be capable of listening to other viewpoints. Do you hold Bercow and Clarke with utter contempt as well?
We really are totally ****ed! They’ll elect him as PM, then gleefully cheer him on as he crashes the economy off a cliff.
Maybe.
The reality is that despite all the cock waving and tough talking, any future PM is going to face exactly the same constraints that led to the demise of Theresa May, namely, no majority for WA or No Deal, negotiations on WA closed, and, the big one - the Irish Border. Reality is going to hit home hard round about September. As I have said before, it's really easy to stand in the crowd below shouting 'jump', but it's not going to be so great when you are the one standing on the precipice.
So with the newcomer having painted themselves into a 'I am so rufty tufty' corner, the EU (who also want to avoid No Deal), will probably only offer an extension if the parliamentary deadlock is broken. Ergo, General Election or Referendum later this year.
We're already ****ed to be fair. It's now just working out if we are going to keep circling the pan, or is someone going to flush us.
Rory has even gone so far as mentioning national service which should get them all excited seeing as they think it is still 1942 and don’t realise the next war will be cyber based and not fought with armies.
I think you will find that Britain is right now at the regal head of the far reaching Commonwealth Empire and is commanded by Her Royal Majesty Queen Victoria. Isambard Kingdom Brunel also builds the world's greatest ships and our Navy is the largest in the world.
Maybe. But I’d rather have Rory in opposition than Johnson, May or Cameron, at least Rory has shown himself to be capable of listening to other viewpoints. Do you hold Bercow and Clarke with utter contempt as well?
Not sure where the utter contempt bit came from but if one of the options for tory leader was Ken Clarke I would join the Tory party to vote for him!
Yeah Ken Clarke is completely wasted on the Tories, Stewart is as well - it's just that I think he is still wedded to to an idea of the Tories that doesn't exist anymore and has perhaps been more willing to toe the party line. Bercow should be a liberal democrat, for the life of me I can't understand why he hasn't switched sides yet - maybe he's just having fun being a real life version of an STW forum baiting troll.
Torso has the nail on the head
Reality is going to hit home hard round about September.
because the UK did the deal with the EU - not tories, not Theresa herself - and we had one go at it. the future relationship is still for debate but no-one is talking about that because the options are we have to go with their trading deals and accept the movement rules - or we sit on the edge and miss out on all the good stuff whilst still paying for access
Bercow is clearly having the time of his life, and loving every minute of winding up the headbangers. And good luck to him! Apparently he's got a big following around the EU leaders who are also rather enjoying the performance
He's taken on the air of Father Dick Byrne in Father Ted, as the nemesis of the ERG. Just knocking them back because he can, so just doing it for shits and giggles, knowing full-well there's absolutely nothing they can do about it.
If theres anything good to come out of this shitshow, its watching the proper gammons like Bill Cash, Pete Bone and Mark Francois absolutely seething because he's not allowing them to 'Take Back Control' or 'ride roughshod over parliamentary democracy', depending on whether you're mental or not.
I mean, this is just brilliant...
https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1093148562928685056
Regardless of Tory leadership the issue here is divided parties.
Both Labour and Tory make a big deal about a divided nation ... what a load of bovine excrement.
What is it they think happens every GE ?
May was in power ... and decided on everyone’s behalf that 100% of leave voters voted for her to get a deal ... Corbyn was more worried about forcing a GE ... and quite plainly happy to disregard labour membership wanting a full say final ref....
And as for Cameron ... he asked a half question to start with based on hubris.
Esther McVey told LBC that foreign aid has been mis-spent, including on an airport where the runway was built in the wrong direction facing the wind.
Other than her just making this up ... she shows a distinct lack of understanding of the compass and that runways can be used in both directions and that into the wind is the preferable one. But other than that sounds completely credible,
She's not making it up. She's just misinformed (that's the nicest possible way I can put it).
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/21/st-helena-islanders-compensation-285m-airport
I wonder if she means the St Helena airport which has run into problems due to dangerous winds making it a bit interesting landing.
However there is the minor detail that it is a British Overseas territory so not really part of what would be considered foreign aid.
Isn't most foreign 'aid' just grants, loans and export guarantees for dodgy regimes to buy British made explodey things to use on people they don't like? Normally their neighbours, who we're also arming in a similar fashion?
Normally their neighbours, who we’re also arming in a similar fashion?
I dont think most arms stuff goes through foreign aid but instead has its own special slush fund (export guarantee) which also includes nicely dressed officers to act as salesmen.
However yes a fair amount of foreign aid (from all countries) is really a hidden subsidy for companies resident in the country providing the foreign aid.
That airport is now in full use and doing vital good… but I don't think it has anything to do with the EU, or our relationship with it… perhaps take this chat about "aid" to another thread.
Imagine that? A prominent (and so, by nature, ill-informed) Brexiteer using a load of factually-incorrect whataboutery to imply that something is all the EU's fault?
Well MPs have voted against parliament wrestling any control away from whoever our next PM is as regards a No Deal Brexit. Lots of the candidates for PM now "promising" that we will Leave at the end of October, come what may. Doesn't look good, does it.
Doesn’t look good, does it.
Obviously all Corbyn's fault, and not at all that of people like Rory Stewart who despite talking big on how he doesn't want no deal, still toes the party line to preserve his already non-existent leadership credentials.
Yes, whipping in the past to enable Brexit… playing the long game to do what? People warned that trying to stop No Deal at the final hurdle would be futile. Too late. In fact, go back a few years and you'll see predictions in this thread that Corbyn would change tact only once Brexit could no longer be stopped… so we get Brexit, the Tories are blamed, we then get a Labour government in the aftermath. It's always looked like the plan. Not sure the last step is a given though.
Oh god… IDS is loving his own voice on the radio again… with his usual bullshit. Soon to have the ear of a new gung ho PM.
But veteran eurosceptic, Conservative Sir Bill Cash said it was a "phantom motion" which paved the way for "government by Parliament".
Which doesn't sound a bad thing. Or am I missing something?
What's most odd, is parliament voting against giving itself proper oversight of the process when it doesn't even know who will be PM come October. Full trust in the unknown.
Anyway… what was I rambling about in reply to @Dazh bringing this back to Corbyn while we were all busy complaining about Tories… oh… yes…
Jeremy Corbyn wants a “Tory Brexit” so the Conservative Party gets the blame “when things go wrong”, former Labour chancellor Alistair Darling has said.
Darling doesn't have any answers of his own though. And he was the architect of austerity (ssshhh) so probably not the best person to quote as regards current Labour policies.
what was I rambling about in reply to @Dazh bringing this back to Corbyn while we were all busy complaining about Tories… oh… yes…
You missed some key parts of his comment eg "I think". As sources of reliable information about what Corbyn actually thinks (which does seem rather hard to call properly) it is just above Binners opinion.
Corbyn dearly wants Brexit. Always has, always will. But he doesn’t want his fingerprints on it. Because he’s a coward and a fraud.
Hes also pretty bloody delusional if he thinks that his complicit enabling at every critical juncture - which is still continuing with his absolute refusal to have any kind of confirmatory vote - isn’t clearly obvious to all but the most terminally naive
The ownership of this disaster is just as much his. As all the former labour voters who’ve switched to the Lib Dem’s, Greens and SNP have just reminded him
Never was too quick on the political uptake though...
John Snow on channel 4 news is going to have to reappraise his assertion that he’s never seen so many white people (at a pro-Brexit rally), if the Tory leadership contest audiences are anything to go by.
To say it’s hardly diverse would be an understatement
White. Old. Male. And, no doubt, very comfortably well off.
I wonder if the 8 labour MP’s who voted with the Tories to enable a no deal Brexit will get the full Alastair Campbell treatment of instant dismissal from the party?
Or face any censure at all?
I wonder how Jezza would have voted if he hadn’t been trapped in his own personal nightmare where he’d accidentally become party leader?
Hmmmmmm.....
Hmmmmmm…..
Are you suggesting that MPs should be kicked out of the party for not toeing the party line?
Thats a tad authoritarian isnt it? I thought you were against that sort of thing?
Just suggesting that some consistency would be nice
One rule for one....
Oh... you’re a friend of Jeremy’s.... carry on....
Let’s be honest... If there hadn’t been a terrible 3 quid-based administrative error a few years back, you know he’d be voting with them, right?
They all know it
Kate Hoey might as well be a Brexit Party member but she knows she’s safe as houses as a ‘fellow traveller’ to the glorious leader
oh kate hoey, she should be fired
Data based upon demographics, class, finances and ethnicity, was used to identify core groups of Labour voters to be targeted with UKIP-led messaging and was instrumental in deciding where Nigel Farage appeared to speak during the Brexit campaign.
Leave.EU, Cambridge Analytica, the RMT Union and Trade Unions Against EU, and Labour MP Kate Hoey – associated with Labour Leave – gained access to the information via Labour’s 2015 general election data guru before referendum campaigns were officially designated by the Electoral Commission.
Blue Collar workers, struggling families, students, and ethnic minorities were among those specifically designated valuable to tailored social media targeting and doorstep canvassing. The data provided specific postcodes to be targeted on and offline, in order to attract millions of votes across the country – enough to swing the divisive referendum result.
that she hasnt is mindboggling
Oh, I hadn't realised that the vote would have been won, if it wasn't for Labour rebels. Why would they vote for parliament not to take (limited) powers away from a Tory party without a leader? I mean, even if they are proBrexit, how can they be pro an undefined headless Tory party being handed the reigns on the run up to our exit? They trust the as yet unappointed PM more than Parliament as a whole?
It beggars belief...
They should be sacked from Labour and made to be independent or face a byelection in thier areas.
But magic grandad wants the keys to No. 10, and it suits his agenda to keep them on board.
Party before country, just as bad as the Conservatives.
Far worse!
You expect nothing better from them. The Tory’s are the Torys. Expectations are low, to say the least
But the nutters in the Tory leadership contest are at least representing the views of their members and voters. Karl Marx’s garden gnome doesn’t even seem remotely interested in any of that shit
It’s all about what he thinks. Restoring party democracy... my arse! Just check if Seamus says it’s ok...
It’s going to have to happen isn’t it?
Every opportunity the nutters and the ‘easily led’ have had to face up to reality has been shunned, because of a combination of lying and stupidity.
So, we are going to have to go over the edge. But it still won’t be their stupid fault, it will be the E.U. or immigrants or anyone with a different skin colour. Again.
A plague on all their houses.
Those eight labour mps are hardline brexiteers with motives from outright racism to deluded lexit support.
But of course this is Corbyns fault
Those eight labour mps are hardline brexiteers with motives from outright racism to deluded lexit support.
I used to think that, but John Mann is my MP and he's not a Corbyn fan boy at all. But he's sitting on a 70% Brexit strong community. So what are you going to do? Like the neighbouring Mansfield we would hand it over to the Tories or Brexit party if not.
There's complete logic to not biting the hand that feeds him. Nor is it racism. (daft thing to say)
And he's done a lot of good stuff around here.
If we're kicking anyone out it should be Hodge and Tom Watson - Watson especially for conducting his completely dodgy polling and constant attacks against conference policy.
Some of you lot have this at 180 degrees.
I will say this John Mann doesn't like Corbyn - so he tends to vote against no matter what and that does piss me off. And at the same time is a complex message, but does show Corbyn is after a compromise Brexit and Mann is not.
The next train arriving at Platform Reality is the scheduled October 31st to Brexit, stopping at Undemocratic EU, Global Britain, Unleashed Potential, You just have to believe, Managed No Deal and Windy Runway.
https://giphy.com/gifs/disaster-train-wreck-xT9Igk6pl01yVK0FHO
Mogg and his cronies voted against one type of brexit, there was nothing to stop the labour mps voting against another type.
Is anyone asking how the EU is likely to respond to a new tub thumbing PM looking to change the Withdrawl Agreement before October…?
https://twitter.com/stone_skynews/status/1139037352230342661?s=21
There’s complete logic to not biting the hand that feeds him.
Yup, he wants to hold onto his seat. Such an honourable man. Voting to support a headless Tory party delivering a No Deal Brexit is a small price to pay to stay an MP.
constant attacks against conference policy
If those in Labour who are calling for a referendum with a Remain option before we Leave are to be expelled… it's going to be a tiny Party. Kier Starmer was stronger than ever last night in calling for that to become explicit policy as soon as possible.
Voting to support a headless Tory party delivering a No Deal Brexit is a small price to pay to stay an MP.
Quite. Behaving like a Tory. What more can we say?
The bottom line is that there is no such thing as a No Deal Brexit. There will have to be a deal of some sort
One thing that absolutely baffles me with these loons is the idea that in the chaos of no arrangements being in place on October 31st, that we're going to find ourselves in a better negotiating position than we are now.
There's some seriously warped thinking to come to the conclusion that we'll be suddenly somehow in a position to be dictating terms. Yes the motorway network is at a standstill with food rotting in the back of trucks, and we're running low on essential medicines but HAHAAAAAA Johnny Foreigner - we've shown you, eh? Now let's sit down and negotiate a proper deal from our new position of strength
It doesn't stand up to the most cursory examination. But it appears that analysis of the most basic economic facts are not part of the process
Baffles me too. They must know it is not going to go well yet they pretend it is to look all big and hard and also comply with the will of the people. What happens when it all goes to shit and they start getting the blame or do they really think that is not going to happen?
Three groups…
One thinks that the EU always comes good at the last minute, and will always choose either to extend or to bend to our will, rather than let us mess things up. They think brinkmanship is the only way to do deal with the EU.
One thinks that from the chaos will come opportunity… the chance for radical political and industrial reform that would otherwise be resisted by the public.
One still really doesn't understand how international agreements work, and how they effect everything we do. Scarily, some of these people are in prominent positions now… promising that success will fall into our hands if we just keep our own civil service and diplomats out of the picture. They think it's all just a series of straightforward business deals, and professionals who claim otherwise are over thinking it.
Edit - sorry - there is a fourth group - those that genuinely believe that DEMOCRACY MUST BE OBEYED NO MATTER THE DAMAGE (and, no, you can't have a vote).
What happens when it all goes to shit and they start getting the blame
They'll blame the evil EU, like MPs and the media have been doing consistently for the past fifty years.
Let's be honest, this is the received wisdom and has been for so very very long:
I bet the ERG can't believe how well this is going. The longer things carry on for the bigger the result is likely. Not only will they have gotten one of theirs in to No10 but they've got "No deal" not only on the table but as the default option and the more people talk about it the more normalised it becomes.
We're like crabs being boiled alive. In 50 years this is going to make a very interesting study in mass hypnotism.
The financial times just published a cabinet note that the UK is - surprise surprise - nowhere near ready for a No Deal Brexit (could we ever be?)
UK not ready for a no-deal Brexit, confidential cabinet note warns
Brexiteer Peter Lily has just been on Five Live to say that that's all complete nonsense and everything is going to be just fine, in fact absolutely brilliant, because... well it just is
Not really any surprises in the result of the first vote, I think.
Boris looks to be a shoe-in - who's likely to be the other finalist, I wonder...
Exactly how long after we've left will Britain be great again?
Can a leaver give me some sort of time frame.
Exactly how long after we’ve left will Britain be great again?
About when we stop being the UK, so really when we end up leaving NI in Europe because we can't figure out how to take it with us.
I was a remainer and now I'm a leaver...in the very real sense. Living in the UK after a no deal brexit with that charlatan as 'leader' will be one straw too many. Estate agents are booked to come round at the weekend and the search commences for a couple of jobs in the Netherlands. New schools are being scouted for the children. For me, it will be a new horizon, for my wife it will be returning home. She hasn't been entirely happy since the day of the result anyway but now things are exponentially worse.
They’ll blame the evil EU, like MPs and the media have been doing consistently for the past fifty years.
This is what pisses me off the most now, it's bad enough we're going to crash out but knowing that the hardline leavers will get away with things if/when the economy/country suffers by blaming the EU, May's failure to negotiate as a good a deal as they could have in their fantasy world and delays caused by remainers really annoys me.
Exactly how long after we’ve left will Britain be great again?
Well Jacob Rees-Mogg reckons it could be 50 years - and I would have thought he would err on the side of optimism re. Brexit.
Big picture, we're well on our way to second world status for a good long time, I would say. And long term, what are the Divided Kingdom's big options, could go -
* hello, cheap labour here, the Sweatshop of Western Europe
* go back to the EU doing our best to be polite and nice and stuff and asking to re-join
* agree to everything the US wants and hope for nominal 51st state status.
* the EU already has deals with others who will always be cheaper than we can be … and more deals are underway
* don't forget who will have the vetoe to stop this … good luck getting unanimity across all EU governments and parliaments for that, after our disregard for them
* "always" and "only" America First, the big guy says
This whole thing is a disaster capitalist project. And that works by creating chaos then using the 'opportunity' to drive through policies you wouldn't get through in a million years in a 'normal' circumstances. That's why they want a No Deal Brexit. They want complete chaos. No skin off their noses as they're all safely insulated from it
As the carnage of the economic collapse unfolds, expect to be hearing a sombre looking PM (probably Boris) at a succession of press conferences making statements that all start "we have no option but to..." as they tear up the entire post-war settlement. You can kiss goodbye to a lot that we've taken for granted in this country for 60-70 years. Bye bye NHS, the welfare state, environmental controls, workers rights and the minimum wage as they slash taxes for corporations and the rich
You know what? Why don't we "just" get on with Brexit.
That's right John. You tell them. Sum it up like nobody else can. You've certainly spotted and fixed all the obvious problems with the whole thing there.
One still really doesn’t understand how international agreements work, and how they effect everything we do.
I was thinking about this last night. I genuinely believe that this is the largest group, by a long way. The next time I hear someone say they want "no deal" I'm going to ask them what it means, and I strongly suspect that it'll be to stay as we are now or variations on that theme; that nothing will change only we'll be free to do what we want (whatever that is). I'd love to see a poll done on this.
Because for all their bluster, I'd wager good money (in a non-sterling denomination) that next to no-one outside of the likes of people like Banks and Putin really wants a no-deal brexit, they simply do not have the remotest comprehension of what that actually means. Their precious blue passport is going to be the square root of **** all use to them when we don't have a deal that means we can fly into foreign airspace.
IDS on the radio earlier saying that actually no deal isn't really no deal, it's going back to the EU for the 'comprehensive free trade agreement they offered us right at the start of negotiations'. Utter abject bollocks.
Truly depressing read that John Redwood tweet - putting all the blame on the Civil Service and businesses when it's down to the politicians ineptitude and lack of direction. Civil Servants aren't stopping anything, they'll just be asking questions based on policy and law and expect to be given some of direction they can act upon in accordance with the Civil Service Code. It's laughable that one of the reasons for Brexit is because of those 40,000-odd "unelected EU officials" when we have 300,000 unelected officials in the UK trying their level best to make order out of the chaos and the best answer the Brexies can come up with is "sack them"!
I anticipate that we'll get to the edge of the precipice come October and the headbangers will be told we can't jump because we'll be in breach of the Good Friday Agreement
Redwood is solidly from group two in my list, and is currently pretending to be in group three (having already pretended to be in groups one and four).
Redwood is a half-wit. If that.
The "great" in great Britain refers to the size of the UK after the union of Scotland and England. As Scots independence and a united Ireland are likely as a result of brexit then Britain would never be great again.
No deal means no deal. Without the Ni backstop and without paying the bill then there can be nothing else agreed so no trade deals or anything else
Could the E.U. turn around and say ‘the new deadline to leave is now open ended’?
They say to us that they know we want to leave but have shown no indication that we know how to or when.
We’ve elected our M.E.P.s so our default position is ‘in’ as full members until we go to them with a full, costed and timed plan.
They read it and accept it or they send it back and say try again.
Imagine the rage of the headbangers if they kept us in until we actually had a plan!
Don't know if they could do that but be good if they did.
Could the E.U. turn around and say ‘the new deadline to leave is now open ended’?
They can't keep having to deal with the constant distrubtion we are making, they could I suposse say, right get your act together and give 12 months notice on whether you agree to the deal or will leave with no deal. Both scenarios need preparation and just can't be enacted the nest day.
But continuing the current purgatory with no defined end suits no one, and is damaging everyone's economy.
But wouldn’t that end the purgatory because we’d be ‘in’? Business as usual until the UK sets the (achievable) date.
If the EU’s sole concern was to troll us (and it would be awesome if it was), then that would be most excellent.
However......
But continuing the current purgatory with no defined end suits no one, and is damaging everyone’s economy.
They’re just going to (rightly) tell us to **** off at the end of October. Then it really is hold on tight time. Or maybe emigrate to a country that has some self respect.
Any space left up in Scotland for us remainers? I hear you like the idea of not committing economic suicide.
I've said on here before that if "moving to Scotland" isn't just some meaningless soundbite then what are you waiting for? There is plenty of space and it'll never be easier as there is no paperwork required. Come now and help make it the country you'd like it to be.
More brexit logic on the withdrawal agreement from the DUP, apparently it’s all Ireland’s fault:
Mr Donaldson said the reason we have an impasse is because on three occasions, the UK parliament would not approve the Withdrawal Agreement because of the backstop.
He said it was a concern that was shared across a number of parties in Westminster, and said given Ireland's refusal to discuss the backstop, we were heading for a no-deal Brexit.
He said an agreement is only an agreement if both sides sign up to it, and when questioned about Theresa May signing up to it, he said she was the Prime Minister but was not the government.
Why is this place sounding so sensible when other forums/Facebook whatever are full of rabid leavers? I've been on Pistonheads occasionally and it's completely the opposite dynamic where the bias is generally towards leave, or at least the most vocal element is. Have the dissenters simply been shouted down by the liberal majority on here or is there something more fundamental about a mountainbiker's approach to life?
Have the dissenters simply been shouted down by the liberal majority on here or is there something more fundamental about a mountainbiker’s approach to life?
bit of both I think
I think it probably shows how reality has hit home
Do you even hear any of the original Brexiteers trying to argue any of their points of how Brexit will deliver any advantages at all, any more? That all stopped a long time ago as its just a laughable premise, given what we all now know
So now the nature of their argument - such as it is - has moved exclusively to 'we must deliver the will of the people' and 'just get on with it!'
That's now all they've got
Perhaps the forum members here are not universally moneyed up selfish bum holes that just can't wait to halve the salary of their sandwich factory slaves.
I apologise to all supercar driving pistonheads forum members who own a different sort of business.
And unlike facebook, we seem to be quite light on flag waving racist nazis Farage fanboys.