[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

the UK sends £350 million a week to the EU, and if anyone says thats not true then I’ll act like a big wet girl and cry to the moderators about it.

That is disingenuous. Or were you just joking with that comment?

teamhurtmore - Member
We..the ballot paper simply asked "should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
No mention on single market

Why would it? It’s pefectly clear what membership of the EU means and involves and what it doesn’t.

I didn't say it should or shouldn't...I just said it didn't.

Any sign of THMs "adults" or behind the scenes deals being done?

[b][i]"access to the single market"[/i][/b] means NOTHING…

Even Farage understands that all countries have access to the single market…

The "kind" of access we require… especially as regards NI, is to operate in the Single Market and Customs union, and all that entails. Convergence on regulation, sharing in the trade deals made by a large block of countries, etc… of course Farage doesn't come to the same conclusion… don"t be like Farage.

THM - on the surface of it, that is correct. But there are non-member states who enjoy access to the single market i.e. Switzerland, Norway. It's fair to say that it's a far more complex question than anyone realised,

Being the kind hearted person that I am 😉 I posted this many times from the HoL

[b]From the outset, it is important that the Government, Parliament and the public are clear about the distinction between ‘access to’ and ‘membership of’ the Single Market[/b]. Many countries have ‘access to’ the EU’s Single Market, either through agreed tariffs at the WTO or via a FTA. [b]However, the only countries which have full membership of the Single Market—which entails the liberalised movement of goods, services, people and capital (the ‘Four Freedoms’), secured through common rules interpreted by the European Court of Justice (CJEU)— are EU Member States[/b]. The EEA states only enjoy partial membership, because the EEA agreement does not include a customs union. On the other hand, Turkey’s inclusion in a customs union with the EU does not entail the free movement of services, people or capital. Fundamentally, full membership of the Single Market is predicated upon acceptance of all Four Freedoms

Of course the trolls and the chief in particular were very unhappy when this was posted. But facts have always being inconvenient for them

Have you missed today’s news TJ?!?

You are very funny

Anyone just hear Varadkar?

There’s a deal.
Ok let’s announce that.
Hello, is that Leo?
Yep, what’s up Terry?
Ah, about that deal...that bloody difficult woman in Belfast!

That is disingenuous. Or were you just joking with that comment?

I'm going with disingenuous. While I disagree with ninfan on many points, I refrain from personal insult.

There are countries that are not members of the EU that are part of the SM and/or the CU.
It is a political choice beyond that advised by the referendum result, to not operate in the SM and CU.
Today reminds us of that so very clearly.

Even your choice quote is flawed THM…

The EEA states only enjoy partial membership, because the EEA agreement does not include a customs union

Woolly, no? They don't have "partial membership"' do they? If we were part of the customs union and the single marktet, would we have "full membership"? I think not. We'd be non-members operating in systems of which we were not members, wouldn't we?

Membership of v access to

It’s not that hard.

We are negotiating the terms of the latter having given up the former. Very clear.

TJ the grown up Mr Varadkar “confident possible to find deal in December”

But you can always keep ignoring the truth. No grown ups, no chance of a deal, no behind the scenes negotiations. No, really? 😉

I quite enjoyed pointing out to THM that from logical consideration of his posts he doesn’t know what in or out of the EU means.

But he doesn’t want to play today. Fair enough.

That inflection point is coming closer by the day now though.

We are negotiating the terms of the latter having given up the former. Very clear.

Better still to be members and not give up control of course.

Tut, tut

Having access to the SM and CU

It’s not that difficult really

But good to see that you have now recognised that the Irish border comes after the agreement over what form of access to the SM and CU is negotiated. So quite a bit of progress today all-in-all

what a day to be busy at work !

still , very happy for NI and Ireland if reports are true .

The fall out in the rest of the UK is going to be huge .

I’m now going to remind you all that the UK sends £350 million a week to the EU, and if anyone says thats not true then I’ll act like a big wet girl and cry to the moderators about it.

It's not true. It doesn't take into account the £100m rebate we get, so the actual figure is around £250m. And that neatly ignores all the money that comes back again.

Incidentally, we were just debating whether you'd whine for getting a warning or not. I won.

Tut, tut

Having access to the SM and CU

It’s not that difficult really

Meaningless twaddle. Every country I can think of has access.
It is set out in treaties which specific countries are inside both the SM & CU.

THM - I’m right in thinking one can preserve access to the SM and CU by remaining in the EU - and as a bonus get some say over their rules.

I’m right ain’t I?

TJ the grown up Mr Varadkar “confident possible to find deal in December”

Has this been approved by the not-very-grown-up Arlene Foster?

Question is how much is this going to cost May

The DUP didn't come cheap at the first bribe.

I see Vote Leave nob Owen Patterson caught lying again on R4 this morning, NI send 37% of its exports to EU, not 'small amount- 5% ' as he tried to BS earlier.

Whether it's money for the NHS, leaving the SM or trade figures, you can never trust a brexy !

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42223732

But good to see that you have now recognised that the Irish border comes after the agreement over what form of access to the SM and CU is negotiated. So quite a bit of progress today all-in-all

To progress to a trade deal, one of the EU countries needs promises as regards the border, and despite both EU and UK teams insisting otherwise, there is no way that can fail to have a knock on effect on what agreements will be arrived at as regards SM & EU. Hopefully, we will all in the UK end up operating inside both the SM & CU, even if not EU members.

[ edited to be more polite - no point rising to that oh so familiar patronising tone ]

ninfan - Member

I’m now going to remind you all that the UK sends £350 million a week to the EU

Sir David Norgrove says you're a liar

IGM had we voted to retain our membership then yes. Try to avoid the woolly “in” phrase. As you can see, it confuses people

****.

Indeed kelvin our “team” is currently negotiating the terms of our access to the SM and CU despite what some would have you believe

Let’s hope they succeed

Incidentally, we were just debating whether you'd whine for getting a warning or not. I won.

😆

Anyway.

THM. What is it you want from Brexit? Is it a 'Brexit' in name only? Or is it the more 'ideological' end of the spectrum?

If we do get a 'Brexit' it will be so far removed from what the 'nothing short of carpet bombing Dresden will do' loons, then it will please nobody. I acknowledge whoever used that turn of phrase earlier.

Whatever happens, Brexit is the end of Tory government for a long, long time. It is a problem of their own making and seeing them wriggle, squirm and in-fight is thoroughly entertaining.

So much for the progres some claimed would have been made by now. On page 990 I made these posts a month ago:

There's such a huge gulf between what might reasonably be expected of the UK and what Davies is offering that progress seems unlikely.

On NI the EU is insisting on some kind of physical checks at the border as it would be the EU border with the UK and the EU needs to be able to stop Britian flooding the EU with tarif free goods from the rest of the world (tarif free trade with the rest of the world was a reason for Brexit remember). The UK has so far refused this.

On the divorce payment the figures I've seen from the UK side, £20bn and £38bn, have both been denied and are far from the figures calculated and presented by the EU. The UK figures barely cover membership during the Art. 50 period and an eventual transition period, adding the part of EU debt attributable to the UK and pensions gives a figure of around 100bn euros. The EU needs a figure with parliamentary backing to work on, that's when negotiations will start, and end if the figure is seen as rediculously low.

The DUP having a hold on the Tories means progress on NI is unlikely so I can't see "negotiations" going far. Negotiations thus far can sumarised as:

Britain "we hear what you're asking and we refuse point blank, go whistle".

EU "OK, next meeting in two months then".

and repeat at each meeting of Davies and Barnier.

So NI is a catch 22 with the only way out being to cancel Brexit.

Edit to add: The Good Friday agreement was torn up when th eTories formed a coalition with the DUP, the British government is no longer impartial.

Britain is pressing on with Brexit with a government that includes the DUP. Brexit and the Good Friday agreement are incompatible on many levels as you'll see if you read through the agreement. The agreement includes freedoms and responsibilites that are incompatible with NI and Eire being on two sides of an EU/rest of world frontier. Negotiating those away or simply removing them (hard Brexit) is in breach of the Good Friday agreement (and if you refuse to honour your responsibilities in a signed agreement then in popular parlance you are "tearing it up").

The car crash continues.

But good to see that you have now recognised that the Irish border comes after the agreement over what form of access to the SM and CU is negotiated. So quite a bit of progress today all-in-all

This is utter nonsense. The agreement on the 3 principles has to be made before any negotiations on trade can be started. There is no agreement therefore no trade talks

Sir David Norgrove says you're a liar

No, he says that without further explanation I’m being potentially misleading.

So there 😉

It's not true. It doesn't take into account the £100m rebate we get, so the actual figure is around £250m. And that neatly ignores all the money that comes back again.

So, you’re saying that it’s a lie, or it isn’t a lie?

I mean, you know, if you can5 say that someone was lying by posting material which was proven to be deliberate misrepresentation of what leave campaigners said about single market membership, then you can’t accuse me of lying for posting up material that is technically true but potentially deliberately misleading without further explanation

Incidentally, we were just debating whether you'd whine for getting a warning or not. I won.

Proved the point on the partiality of moderation though haven’t I - bet a tenner you wouldn’t have intervened if anyone called me a liar despite the “No personal insults” rule

THM - I wouldn’t want to add to your undoubted confusion [s]in[/s] concerning this matter. 😉

I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it.

dannyh

Whatever happens, Brexit is the end of Tory government for a long, long time. It is a problem of their own making and seeing them wriggle, squirm and in-fight is thoroughly entertaining.

Absolutely!

The only good thing to come out of this utter s*** fest!

Leo Varadkar, the Irish taoiseach, has said he is “disappointed and surprised” that the agreement reached between Ireland and Britain this morning was no longer acceptable to Theresa May.

So May conceded and then couldn't get the DUP to agree. How weak is she? making agreements then not being able to honour them..
Utter idiot

So apparently Arlene Foster wants NI to be treated the same as the rest of the UK?
So I take it she'll be sending that £1 billion back then?
There's 3 weeks worth of extra money for the NHS 😉

teamhurtmore - Member

But good to see that you have now recognised that the Irish border comes after the agreement over what form of access to the SM and CU is negotiated. So quite a bit of progress today all-in-all

Didn't follow that, could you explain? Surely finalising and agreeing the NI border matter has to predate the SM/CU part?

So as far as I can tell today...

May rolled over for the EU.
Arlene rang.
May rolled over for Arlene.
Dublin were going to make a statement on the state of affairs, but, given they couldn’t work out what the state of affairs was, decided not to.
Scotland, Wales and London said if there are special deals going count us in. Rumours that York said the same are unproven.
Everyone went home saying it had all been jolly fun and they’d try again later in the week.
Except Arlene.

Did I miss anything?

Kind of reminded me of those few days in the TdF mountains where Froome blew up into the airport, we all thought it might get interesting, but as they left the mountains his lead was exactly what it was as they went in.

Everything happened and nothing happened.

[img] [/img]

What is the official scale for balls-ups by the way.

Is it shambles then fiasco then farce?

Or a different permutation?

Brexit (or at least what the loons perceive as Brexit) cannot and will not happen.

The Tories are heading for the wilderness - and long may they stay there.

If their vote goes below a certain level, there may even be a (please, please let it happen) split in the party that leads to a proper centrist opposition but ensures that the loons are never let near to any position of influence again.

As far as I like to think, that's what a decade or more of economic self-harm might just be worth paying for.

codybrennan - Member

teamhurtmore - Member

But good to see that you have now recognised that the Irish border comes after the agreement over what form of access to the SM and CU is negotiated. So quite a bit of progress today all-in-all

Didn't follow that, could you explain? Surely finalising and agreeing the NI border matter has to predate the SM/CU part?

Yes it does. ( unless you live in tory la la land). The shape of any final trade deal will mean details need to be adjusted but the Irish need to hear how a open border can be achieved on the island of Ireland in accordence with the GFA and the EU need to hear how this border will be secure as do the rabid leavers

Incidentally, we were just debating whether you'd whine for getting a warning or not. I won.

On this particular point (because it is so funny), we are back where we were about a year ago.

Kids poking dogs with sticks then going crying to mummy when the dog bites.

The difference being that most kids learn in the end.

😐

The influential Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg said that Tory MPs would not allow the regulation even of Northern Ireland to be aligned with the EU.

“We cannot align the regulation of one part of the United Kingdom with the European Union. If we align the whole of the United Kingdom then we haven’t left the European Union so there is a logical impossibility of doing what the Irish government proposes,” he told reporters outside the meeting of backbench Conservative MPs.

this is the loons May has to deal with. These rabid loons will block anything that hints at concessions - and the UK government is committed to no borders on the island =of Ireland. trouble is the Leavers have been so busy promising everything to everyone that they don't have a braincell to spare to think about difficult issues like this

May is valiantly performing a valuable international service though

The most corrupt, incompetent banana republics on the planet are presently thanking her for making them look like a model of good governance

Is it shambles then fiasco then farce?

A complete and utter ####ing shambles is the highest level as far as I know 😆

A complete and utter ####ing shambles is the highest level as far as I know

Well if the current scale runs from 1 to 10, brexit is a solid 18.
So we're going to have to find a further 7 descriptive words to attribute to levels eleven to seventeen.

Omnishambles was somewhere on the scale but we went past it a long time ago

Just spent a happy 5 minutes getting Google Translate to tell me the French, Spanish, Swedish etc for "Swivel eyed loonie"