Forum menu
Corbyn, are you prepared to pay for brexit with the NHS?
Shame on you.
JFC. Maybe you could consider posting "shame on May / the Conservatives" before you jump to finger-pointing at someone who doesn't have legislative power to affect the impact of Brexit on the NHS?!?
We understand why so many Tories want Brexit, and those of us that have never voted for them don't expect them to be getting this right at all… if you really don't understand our frustration with the Labour leader, I'd be surprised. And this "not in power, so it doesn't matter" approach is just bullshit, I'm afraid. If you apply that to everything, then we don't actually need any opposition MPs at all… might well only have the "winning" party in Parliament, and everyone else goes back to their previous line of work for the next five years.
2016:
We send the EU £350m a week
Lets fund our NHS instead2019:
We send the EU £350m a week
Lets sell our NHS insteadAnyone have a bus?
JFC. Maybe you could consider posting “shame on May / the Conservatives” before you jump to finger-pointing at someone who doesn’t have legislative power to affect the impact of Brexit on the NHS?!
I expect the Tories to be ****s. I expect the leader of the labour party to stop them, not help them on their way.
2016:
We send the EU £350m a week
Lets fund our NHS instead2019:
We send the EU £350m a week
Lets sell our NHS insteadAnyone have a bus?
But aren't 20% of NHS health servcies to the tune of £20 billion + already contracted out already ? Does it make a difference if those contracts go to a British, other European or a US provider?
What about the other 80%?
The US of course has a great track record with regards to public healthcare.
I’m sure the nicotine-stained man-frog will turn his dodgy, illegal funding into some martyrdom issue and the morons will lap it up as poor plucky Nigel being bullied by those nasty foreigners in Brussels for standing up for Britain
Its quite possible 20% of NHS services are already outsourced, that doesnt mean we should welcome with open arms US companies who will immediately increase cost and reduce services to the public. As somebody who worked for a US owned company they are only interested in profit.
You need to make the link between Trump the money maker, Banks the insurance man, Farage the conduit for brexit and the sale of the NHS. It all adds up to money and not for the public who need the services.
IObreakingN:
Oh good.
Time to hold him to some account.
Maybe.
Sadly I think he shares followers with Sick! so in all likelihood they will think him a hero for stuffing it to the man in Europe....
Are one-line questions on rhetorical points intended to be a constructive contribution?
Is yours too?
Well, the implosion of ChangeUK will help simplify things there a bit. Not as much as a clear policy from Labour would, obviously.
Wheat from the chaff. Or just chaff from the chaff. Clowns.
Are one-line questions on rhetorical points intended to be a constructive contribution?
Is yours too?
How meta is this? 😁
Anyone watching channel 4 news? Krishnan Guru-Murthy's head is sandwiched between 2 very anti brexit signs 😂
Its quite possible 20% of NHS services are already outsourced, that doesnt mean we should welcome with open arms US companies who will immediately increase cost and reduce services to the public. As somebody who worked for a US owned company they are only interested in profit.
So American companies are the only ones who are interested in profits and look to reduce costs? Can you point out some UK and other European health care services providers who seek to do otherwise?
What about the other 80%?
The US of course has a great track record with regards to public healthcare.
But currently aren't any/all UK business contracts open to any EU business to bid for?
So what's the problem with the US or any other country bidding for health services contracts?
I’m sure the nicotine-stained man-frog will turn his dodgy, illegal funding into some martyrdom issue and the morons will lap it up
Prediction: banning him from European Parliament for a month will be spun by gammons as the EU being undemocratic after they've all just voted for him.
So what’s the problem with the US or any other country bidding for health services contracts?
The NHS … USA companies can already tender for contracts alongside EU ones … that really isn't the point … what the US want is to force the UK to put more into the public sector, and, importantly, to further break up the NHS to prevent it using its scale to keep the price of drugs and services lower … they want higher prices, and yes, profits.
Which is where Farrage comes in. As deranged as Trump, similar ideals
https://www.theweek.co.uk/101082/nigel-farage-criticised-for-anti-semitic-tropes-on-us-talkshow
and he scored over 34% IIRC which which is a pretty impressive score for a far right politician anywhere, while Bojo and friends have lost votes to Farrage for not being far right enough. Think about that, Bojo/May/Hunt/whoever isn't far enough to the right for many voters. Britian seems ripe for its own Trump in the skin of Farrage. As with Brexit it strikes me that people have no idea of what they are voting for and even less idea of the direct consequences of their voting.
The US healthcare system costs, as a percentage of GDP, vastly more than the NHS costs us. Yet millions and millions of people there have no access to healthcare.
What the US want to do is make it a legal requirement for every single aspect of the NHS to be laid open to ‘competition’.
You know what happens next, right?
Look at what happens with any privatised ‘service’. Costs go through the roof. Everything is cut to bone, but the usual suspects make shedloads of cash
I just hope that the reality of a post-Brexit U.K. might be dawning on a few more people today. No more NHS. Never mind one getting 350 million more quid a week
Project Fear though, innit?
what the US want is to force the UK to put more into the public sector, and, importantly, to further break up the NHS to prevent it using its scale to keep the price of drugs and services lower … they want higher prices, and yes, profits.
I assume you mean private sector?
So how does the US or any other country force the UK to put more NHS services into the private sector? Bombard us with chlorinated chicken(as opposed to chlorinated EU salad) till we submit? If it could have been done I'm sure the EU could have accomplished it already-some Brexiteers may contend that they already have ! 🙂 All this hate for the US because of Donald Trump obvs. but if Obama was pres.would you all still be so anti ?
if Obama was <span class="skimlinks-unlinked">pres.would</span> you all still be so anti
YES.
So how does the US or any other country force the UK to put more NHS services into the private sector?
Ask a ****ing adult. Come back when you have some basic knowledge rather than just opinions.
Sorry… and breath. Read up about TTIP. A good starting point. Apologies. That was an unacceptable non-response.
The NHS quandary for any trade deal that includes both the UK and the USA existed before Trump, and will exist after him. This isn't about him.
Ask a **** adult. Come back when you have some basic knowledge rather than just opionions.
There aren't any - just loads of hyperbole - anyway, rejoice, Trump has taken it off the table already.
There aren’t any – just loads of hyperbole – anyway, rejoice, Trump has taken it off the table already.
Only after meeting with farage yesterday.
You'd be very naive to think that it wouldn't be a goal of trade talks.
Farage has long been a fan of the American health system here.
It's hugely profitable, look at their prostate cancer scam for an idea.
And the us government pays 2x as much per person as UK government & they still have shorter life expectancies.
Farage is in the driving seat now, the Tories are dancing to his tune.
Only after meeting with farage yesterday.
It wasn't actually, it was in an interview with Piers Morgan which was filmed on his visit to the Cabinet War Rooms which took place immediately after his press conference with Theresa May. He then repaired to Wingate House where he met Nigel Farage.
But thank you for illustrating my point so well.
Slow but up to date read on USA objectives…
Older but usefully dumbed down outline of the points of contention…
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40718737
Trump is pretty irrelevant in all this… partly because of the realistic timescales for any deal, party because he really doesn't do details, just inconsistent noise.
Piers Morgan which was filmed on his visit to the Cabinet War Rooms which took place immediately after his press conference with Theresa May. He then repaired to Wingate House where he met Nigel Farage.
But thank you for illustrating my point so well.
I think the only point I'm illustrating is that some people will trust the word of a renowned liar far far too easily!
As if Morgan, one of trump's greatest brown nosers, couldn't have given him a heads-up 😉
Farage like that other Brexit idealogue Hannan have always been fans of the American healthcare system, both used to pretended in the run-up to the ref that Brexit might not to mean leaving the SM & we know how that's turned out!
Hannan was paid by the American healthcare lobby to rubbish the NHS During the Obamacare debate
Trump has consistently said he wants to get higher prices for drugs as part of a trade deal
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/15/trump-threatens-use-us-trade-talks-force-nhs-pay-drugs/
American healthcare providers pay 3x the amount NHS does for the same drug
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-the-u-s-pays-3-times-more-for-drugs/?redirect=1
The brexiteers are in control, they've split Labour & destroyed the Tory party Cameron had rebuilt.
Post Brexit even if they weren't we'd be so desperate for a trade deal we'll just roll over.
So how does the US or any other country force the UK to put more NHS services into the private sector? Bombard us with chlorinated chicken(as opposed to chlorinated EU salad) till we submit? If it could have been done I’m sure the EU could have accomplished it already-some Brexiteers may contend that they already have ! 🙂 All this hate for the US because of Donald Trump obvs. but if Obama was pres.would you all still be so anti ?
So much ignorance in one paragraph!
Check out the links about ttip & then look at who was opposed to it!
Also learn about why US chicken has to be chlorinated & you might start to understand a bit more
Look at how American pharma & insurance companies shape their healthcare system, then look at the costs & outcomes Vs ours
It’s no coincidence that the dodgy Del Boy tribute act that is Arron Banks put so much money into the Leave campaign and is bankrolling Farage, and that his business is ...
Insurance
Farage has stated on numerous occasions that he’d like to see the NHS replaced by a private health insurance system. Trump and his backers in the US would dearly love to see that too. Lots and lots of money to be made in peoples misery, where you have to sell your house to pay for your cancer treatment.
Let’s be reasonable about this.
We have an EU free trade deal, which some folk decided three years ago they didn’t like.
Trump says he’ll offer us an alternative which will be better.
So if he lays it out in detail over the next month or so, then we the British and Northern Irish people will be able to decide which we prefer and vote accordingly.
Oh, is that not how it works? We don’t get to choose?
Let’s be reasonable about this.
We have an EU free trade deal, which some folk decided three years ago they didn’t like.
Trump says he’ll offer us an alternative which will be better.
So if he lays it out in detail over the next month or so, then we the British and Northern Irish people will be able to decide which we prefer and vote accordingly.
Oh, is that not how it works? We don’t get to choose?
Perfect!
Awesome. One down, 178 to go.
Trump says he’ll offer us an alternative which will be better. So if he lays it out in detail over the next month
That is the bit I'm cynical about, trade deals take years so we will probably exit the EU without any meaningful trade deals in place (we did point this out but hey... Liam Fox...) and then the deal the US present will be better for AmericaFirst abd bad for us.
We have an EU free trade deal
We don't and if we did it wouldn't be an either/or
5 minutes after voting closed for the Referendum, Farage was on TV saying "Anyone who thought that the sign on the bus meant money would be going to the NHS instead on Europe, was mistaken".
No doubt 5 minutes after we leave the EU and ask the US about the amazing trade deals they promised us (on the side of a Greyhound bus or not) the answer will be either "Anyone who thought that the US promised the UK an amazing trade deal if they left Europe, was mistaken". or "the previous President had no right to make that promise and the current government has no plan to honour it"
Either way the US wins.
This is the kind of unifying force we need now… to bring the country together and seek a better future for all, no matter how they voted in 2016, or if they now support a Hard Brexit or not…
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/esther-mcvey-vows-sack-every-16258803.amp
Opinion piece on the NHS, but one I can readily see playing out. (NSFW warning, a swear after the cut.)
Mefty - quoting ability aside, of course what we have is an EU free trade agreement, or FTA+++ to borrow the traitorous quitsters’ language.
And it’s not either or now, as you well know - but it may be in the future, one never can tell.
Anyway don’t take my posts too seriously, I’m mainly laughing at Brexies now.
Anyway don’t take my posts too seriously
I don't - never have
Edukator
Member
Which is where Farrage comes in. As deranged as Trump, similar ideals
https://www.theweek.co.uk/101082/nigel-farage-criticised-for-anti-semitic-tropes-on-us-talkshow
and he scored over 34% IIRC which which is a pretty impressive score for a far right politician anywhere
Largely by making his party all about one thing, brexit, and avoiding having official policies on anything else What proportion of that 34% believe he's far right, or would continue to vote for his party if they were open about beliefs and policies?
Of course, that also means they're in a position now to act in any way they want...
When was it, that they were going to reveal their manifesto...?
mefty
MemberAnyway don’t take my posts too seriously
I don’t – never have
Good to hear kid. Likewise obviously. 😎
She’s a lovely woman Esther McVay, isn’t she?
Unfortunately, that’s the kind of unhinged rhetoric that will go down a storm with the Tory membership
So much ignorance in one paragraph!
Ha ! 🙂 at least I know that being in the EU Custom's union means no free movement of people unlike some on here.
As for TTIP thats what the EU have been negotiating with the US for years isn't it? The most controversial,secret trade deal ever etc etc.If the EU sign up to it then how do we get out of it if our Tory government doesn't oppose it? If the Tory government want to sign up to some similar deal post Brexit with the US or any other country then vote them out and pull out of the deals. John McDonnell is on record as saying he is opposed to the TTIP.Not quite as easy if you're still an EU member.
And as for chlorinated chicken research in the EU shows levels of chlorine are above recommended safe levels on EU veg/salad.
I wallow in my ignorance and my vote is just as good as yours or anybody else's.
And seperately BTW kelvin no worries 🙂
Thought the Tory lot were one of the main protagonists in favour of TTIP and the rest of the EU had decided it wasn’t as good as they’d hoped / good enough to sign up to.
There’s probably a multitude of views on who was for/against it.
Christ on a Bendybus! Check out the understanding of the Northern Irish border from the guy who’s going to do us a great trade deal 😳
https://twitter.com/bbcnewsni/status/1136319696410689537?s=21
Thought the Tory lot were one of the main protagonists in favour of TTIP
Sounds about right but I think it was Trump of all people who pulled out of TTIP though it may well be back on now.Let's feed the serfs imported poison so they can sell their financial services or whatever.
Yep. Trump finally pulled the plug (then kind of inserted it again)
The French and the Germans were getting concerned that it could erode national sovereignty (though the British weren’t).
The proposal would I think have needed the individual consent of every EU member state so if the UK didn’t like it we would have had plenty of time to kill it. But we did like it. Apparently.
Trump talks in soundbites. He isn't interested in detail.
My God, Trump lacks even basic understanding of the politics of the countries he visits.
I get the impression he just can't be asked to read even a basic summary his advisers could come up with. Preferring to wing it as "who cares" basically?
What incredibly sad times we live in that many in this country actually think he's a great guy/ President.
We’re leaving the E.U. and Trump and the good ol’ US of A are going to somehow be our salvation, are they?
**** me! How deluded are some people? They’re going to bend us over and go in dry
Wasn't it TTIP that was not going through because EU states said they wouldn't ratify it?
If the EU sign up to it
Don't think the EU can sign up to anything on its own, it has to be signed up to by all it's members. The democratically elected governments. Do you really think the EU is that autocratic? If it were I'd have voted leave FFS.
Unelected Eurocrats Molls, remember. The ones we all voted for the other week
As a celebration of stupidity and denying what’s taking place in front of you, you’d be hard pushed to beat it, but the Brexiteers keep lapping it up
I know it’s apparently patronising and condescending to refer to them as complete ****ing morons, but... you know....
I’m starting to think Trump may have some form of dementia or Alzheimer’s. And I don’t mean that as a nasty statement, just as a concern.
Now I’m not a doctor, and I’m only seeing news items and tweets, but it reminds me of intelligent people I know and have known as their faculties fade with certain illnesses.
Is it just me or is anyone else seeing familiar behaviours?
And yes I know this is probably the wrong thread.
TTIP was dead before Trump assumed his throne.
Because the people of the 28 Member States of the EU were wary of the ramifications - not least those posed by the opening up of individual National Health provisions to the vagaries of US style 'competition'- and protested widely about them. Thus the Parliaments of the 28 Member States were wary of the wariness of the people of the 28 Member States, because that's how Democracy works in the EU.
It's not all about 'un-elected beaurocrats', it's also often about un-elected blowhards saying '**** THAT!' loudly enough that their local Parliaments hear them.
"I’m starting to think Trump may have some form of dementia or Alzheimer’s. And I don’t mean that as a nasty statement, just as a concern."
It is inconceivable that he wasn't given some sort of instruction that, if he hears the letters 'N... H... S...', just be at least circumspect, check yourself, don't wreck yourself.
He couldn't check himself for even the length of a dinner.
And so we get our implausible deniability.
Luckily for 'the Donald', for some inexplicable reason he can always say 'i didn't actually say that' and even if he demonstrably did, he gets away with it.
Implausible deniability - sort of like inverted fake news.
I wallow in my ignorance
Well, judging by that post, I'm now assuming it's actually all pretend ignorance put on for trolling purposes… well done for getting us to bite.
raybanwomble
Memb https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-48533790
/blockquote>I have not visited here for awhile; but curiosity got the better of me - seeing the potentially terrible news for thousands of families that will be affected if the Bridgend plant does close down ...I kinda knew there would be some plain nasty comment or gloating on this thread; and yep ... I wasnt wrong.
Pure nasty.
Yup, some have given up on repeatingly saying "we all lost" when being told to accept Brexit, and now resort to the occasional insensitive "told you so" post.
The pattern is normally for someone to now come along and point out that because said closure is linked to troubles other than Brexit, that it would have happened anyway. And then we wait for the next series of job losses, and repeat the process again, 'till we're all Uber drivers and manufacturing in the UK is heavily depleated (as Minford predicted).
Subscriber
I’m starting to think Trump may have some form of dementia or Alzheimer’s. And I don’t mean that as a nasty statement, just as a concern.Now I’m not a doctor, and I’m only seeing news items and tweets, but it reminds me of intelligent people I know and have known as their faculties fade with certain illnesses.
Is it just me or is anyone else seeing familiar behaviours?
And yes I know this is probably the wrong thread.
He is a psychopath - ie he has a personality disorder probably narcissistic personality disorder. He exhibits all the textbook symptoms so we he is really a textbook case
Have an exaggerated sense of self-importance
Have a sense of entitlement and require constant, excessive admiration
Expect to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it
Exaggerate achievements and talents
Be preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate
Believe they are superior and can only associate with equally special people
Monopolize conversations and belittle or look down on people they perceive as inferior
Expect special favors and unquestioning compliance with their expectations
Take advantage of others to get what they want
Have an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others
Be envious of others and believe others envy them
Behave in an arrogant or haughty manner, coming across as conceited, boastful and pretentious
Insist on having the best of everything — for instance, the best car or office
At the same time, people with narcissistic personality disorder have trouble handling anything they perceive as criticism, and they can:
Become impatient or angry when they don't receive special treatment
Have significant interpersonal problems and easily feel slighted
React with rage or contempt and try to belittle the other person to make themselves appear superior
Have difficulty regulating emotions and behavior
Experience major problems dealing with stress and adapting to change
Feel depressed and moody because they fall short of perfection
Have secret feelings of insecurity, shame, vulnerability and humiliation
he has a personality disorder probably narcissistic personality disorder.
As do a lot of senior leaders, CIOs etc,. It is what has driven them to get where they are.
and now resort to the occasional insensitive “told you so” post.
Nice attempt at defending the indefensible. The thing is the more brexiteers see this sort of crowing, especially the working class ones, the more they’ll feel inclined to vote for Farage. You’ll get the very thing you don’t want.
I keep repeating that the idea that Brexit is a working class cause is nonsense… it's the boondoggle of the rich and comfortable that will be paid for on the back of workers. Agree that the "you voted for this" type posts are both counter productive and flawed. There aren't many though, thankfully. You can see how they are born of frustration though… 3 years into this mess.
They're already voting for farage. There's no putting farage back in the bottle and the longer Labour tries to maintain a policy that is between two stools the more supporters it will lose. Time to shit or get off the pot.
You can see how they are born of frustration though
I can see how they are borne of deep seated snobbery, selfishness, and unjustified feelings of superiority over those who weren't as lucky.
They’re already voting for farage.
Not all of them. It's often been said on here that we need to fight the far right rather than appease them. This fight will not be won by the chattering classes in fashionable suburbs of the big cities. It will be won on the streets of places like Sunderland and Wigan. If we abandon the working class to Farage all we do is give up on any hope of defeating him. I'm afraid there just aren't enough hipsters or keyboard warriors to win this culture war.
Ahh… keyboard warriors.
AKA everyone apart from you? Right?
FFS dazh, are you really blind your your hypocrisy? Your constant name calling and sneering at those who disagree with you, you have appointed yourself as the working class champion, without any understanding of the backgrounds of those of us you constantly snipe and sneer at.
You have gone full trump in accusing everyone else of the crimes that you commit.
AKA everyone apart from you? Right?
I'm not the one whining about how unfair it is that the oiks voted for something I don't want and trying to reverse/ignore it. I've said before, if you want to stop brexit, you have to change the minds of the people who voted for it. You're not going to do that on here or with FBPE hashtags on twitter.
Your constant name calling and sneering
And where have I done that? It's true that I've disagreed, and I've had plenty of the above for swimming against the tide. Just trying to inject a bit of reality from outside the bubble 🙂
Mum was a cleaner, dad was a farm hand and then a solider and then a lorry driver, but yeah, carry on @dazh. Brexit is an expensive damaging game played out by privately educated politicians looking to change the country to suit them and their mates. The British workers will pay, not those with their money spread across the world. Most people now see it for what it is, which is why the people won't get asked to vote for/against it again.
Mum was a cleaner
To be clear my comment was aimed more at rayban than yourself, although I have no idea why you'd want to defend his gloating about working class people losing their jobs and having their communities destroyed.
Brexit is an expensive damaging game played out by privately educated politicians looking to change the country to suit them and their mates.
Totally agree. But it was also an opportunity for the powerless to make their voices heard, which they did. The only question now is whether the politicians listen, or continue ignoring them. If they do the latter, much worse things than brexit will happen as a result.
Nice attempt at defending the indefensible. The thing is the more brexiteers see this sort of crowing, especially the working class ones, the more they’ll feel inclined to vote for Farage. You’ll get the very thing you don’t want
This is the same class, that when asked whether they cared about others losing their jobs over brexit - did not care because they perceived those jobs to be middle class. We were told to get over it and we would find other jobs.
Pressing the brexiteers on any job losses even remotely related to brexit is the only way to get through to them, so that reality slowly seeps through the cracks in the bullshit walls they have built for themselves.
https://smallbusinessprices.co.uk/brexit-index/
The offensive person isn't me, it's the people who voted for brexit knowing full well it would cause job losses and who couldn't give a flying **** who it impacted.
although I have no idea why you’d want to defend his gloating
I didn't defend it… or agree with it… just trying to encourage others to understand it… 3 years down the line, and a significant minority still think that the damage of Brexit is "project fear", and/or that "you lost" is a good enough reason to carry on regardless of the cost to the workers of Britain… some will understandably jump on the "told you so" approach out of frustration. I'm surprised there isn't more of it to be honest. But I consider it counterproductive as well.
And where have I done that?
ok, so the answer is yes, you are blind to your hypocrisy. Maybe try reading some of you own posts as another reader, instead of from your own self anointed sainted seat.
It will be won on the streets of places like Sunderland and Wigan. If we abandon the working class to Farage all we do is give up on any hope of defeating him.
They can vote for him all they like. The high water mark has already happened for Farage and his ilk, even before the European elections. Voting for him will change very little.
Orange man bad! Orange man bad!