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Are you asking people to repeat the last few hundred pages @dazh?
multi-ethnic side
That's quite telling… that you'd think there is a "side" to the Labour Party that is multi-ethnic. Can I vote for that side, please?
I think the reasons are many tbh, not having a well publicised, defined stance on brexit is definitely high up the list, backstabbing and resignations over the last year also suggests a party that isn't united, and SNP have filled the left of centre void up here.
I'm sure there's many other reasons tbh.
Edit - oh, and the guy in charge up here, Richard something or other (that's how much of an impression he's made) is an embarrassment, he has actually managed to make Kezia Dugdale seem half decent.
Did anyone see Newsnight last night? There was a really interesting piece on that even more forgotten and maligned voter than the Labour type... the Tory remainer
They were interviewing some focus groups of lifelong Tory voters and pointing out that in all the talk about defections to Farage there are also a fair old chunk of Tory voters who voted remain, in overwhelmingly remain voting constituencies and who also feel totally politically homeless and disenfranchised by the rabid anti-EU '**** business!' direction of the party
They are now turning to the Lib Dems ad even the Greens as they feel, like the former labour voters, who also voted for those parties, that they have to do that to protest about being unrepresented by their former party. Hence them only getting 9% of the vote
Its gave some figures and showed how the Tories need to be equally as worried by swings away from them to the Lib Dems as to the Brexit Party on the right, and that they'd lose a lot of seats to them
If there were a general election tomorrow, the results could be even more bonkers than the EU elections. I don't think theres a cat in hells chance anyone would come out of it with a working majority. It could be a proper hung parliament, with both labour and the tories losing seats in both directions to the lib dems and farages nutters. Seats divided across 4 parties? God only knows where that would leave us given the chaos we're in already
Big swings to LibDem from the Tories (as well as Labour) in Tory heartlands in both the local elections and last week. Check out the constituencies of key ERG members… very telling. Avoiding a general election this year will be vital for any new Tory leader. I think they'll fail at that though. How many PMs will we get this year? Strong and stable. Chaos with Ed Miliband.
and no one would vote for these idiots at present
(genuinely interested btw)
Let's start with the denial stage first. We've just had an election. No one voted for her majesty's loyal opposition, with the ruling party in utter utter disarray.
If you can accept that that happened, perhaps that implies they may not be playing an absolute blinder, and could perhaps at least consider a significant change of strategy?
Re newsnight piece
Nice to see Graham Brady, Altrincham sale west MP was one of those Tories predicted to lose his seat with a lib dem swing
Was the other one the Harrogate MP?
Although I'm not sure about the source for the very precise figures they gave
Surely surely JRM is on a sticky wicket? <goes off to look at 2017 figures>
That’s quite telling… that you’d think there is a “side” to the Labour Party that is multi-ethnic.
Telling of what? I hope you're not trying to insinuate something. If you are then just come out and say it.
Did anyone see Newsnight last night?
I saw a pissed Matt Hancock slurring away his leadership ambitions like he was Ben Swain. It was so funny I watched it twice.
If you can accept that that happened, perhaps that implies they may not be playing an absolute blinder, and could perhaps at least consider a significant change of strategy?
Aye, but... Northern Heartlands. You can ignore the other 90% of the electorate.
Surely surely JRM is on a sticky wicket?
Local elections were interesting…
https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/live-local-election-results-2019-2827260
Telling of what?
That you see one "side" of the Labour Party as multi-ethnic, and the other side as being not. I'd never considered that, and my initial reaction is that you're dead wrong. I'm going to ponder on it a bit though, always happy to see a fresh angle… feel free to elaborate on what you mean, if you feel like it.
as it’s the exact opposite of what they’ve doen when in power or failed to do when in power:
If he was another Blair clone, you know the sort that Binners gets all excited about, you might have a point with this statement. As it stands though its absolute rubbish. You cant hold him accountable for the actions of the previous Labour government as shit as they might be. Thats the entire point of recalibrating the Labour party so it isnt tory lite to persuade the swing voters.
No fees and gtrants for the poor paid for by the fees imposed on the rich – self funding universities funded by the rich. So I disagree with free fees for all.
A tad populist policy there from you. The primary issue would be what counts as rich? Whilst I do sort of agree that a sliding scale of support would be preferential I dont think you would be able to bill the rich enough to pay for everyone else.
Housing, again the ideas are great but their propositions for funding it are nonsense
Okay. How is it? Remember how much money we are spaffing up the wall thanks to the tories and new labours selling off the housing cheap for it to be rented back expensively.
We don’t need to fuel houses you idiots
If only that was part of their housing policy along with increasing use of renewables. Oh it is.
No one voted for her majesty’s loyal opposition, with the ruling party in utter utter disarray.
A cursory look shows that some people did. Also it isnt like Labour doesnt have its own divide over Brexit so the disarray argument seems rather flawed.
Who are these people going to vote for?
Don't you mean who did they vote for? Check out last week's results. Or the local election results. A big chunk of voters can be won back before a snap General Election… or fingers can stay firmly pushed deep into ears. Time for Labour MPs & members to get a grip on Brexit policy, and sideline Lavery, Milne, Murry, McCluskey & co.
Don’t you mean who did they vote for?
I am interested in these specific examples. If they dont want to vote for a party in disarray then who are they going for?
Bearing in mind the tensions within the other parties which havent really kicked off since they are too small or able to focus at the moment.
SNP, Greens, LibDem, Plaid Cymru, ChangeUK.
None of them will become the biggest party across the UK, but they will prevent a majority Labour (or Conservative) government. If the parliamentary Labour Party doesn't want to be smaller after the next General Election than it is now, it needs to get a grip on policy (with the help of members).
(I have a strong suspicion we can mostly ignore ChangeUK, although an electoral pact might help a few keep their Westminster seats).
So the EU state that the Withdrawal agreement cannot be changed or renegotiated regardless of whose in government in the UK ,as some on here contend .Our parliament won't ratify the Withdrawal agreement or agree to a " no deal" exit then basically we can't ever leave the EU.Is the EU a European Kafakaesque equivalent of Hotel California?
A cursory look shows that some people did. Also it isnt like Labour doesnt have its own divide over Brexit so the disarray argument seems rather flawed.
Some people? Just about still in double figures I guess, just need to push out a few more "blairites". I'm suggesting that Labour could be less disarrayed and, god help us, offer some clear leadership in this moment of national crisis.
lord ashcroft agrees
sadly labour are still chasing the minority of their voters whove fled to farage, rather than the much larger number who have gone to pro-remain parties
and while bulk of Tory voters shifted to farage 10% or so went libdem/green
Our parliament won’t ratify the Withdrawal agreement or agree to a ” no deal” exit then basically we can’t ever leave the EU.Is the EU a European Kafakaesque equivalent of Hotel California?
No.
The key words are 'our parliament' in that paragraph. The EU aren't stopping us from leaving on the terms which we negotiated. Remember, we were supposed to be gone already, and could have done so had we not gone back and asked for more time.
We hold all the cards remember?
thats the entire point of recalibrating the Labour party so it isnt tory lite to persuade the swing voters.
Hows that working out?
Is the EU a European Kafakaesque equivalent of Hotel California?
funnily enough its our sovereign parliament thats the blockage here
the dangers of a binary ref where there is no clear definition of what one outcome means!
Kimbers, that graph wrecks Dazhs argument once and for all. Good post.
Can I say, we told you so Daz?
Also interesting that the number of labour supporters lost to brexit is about equivalent to the amount of supporters the conservatives lost to remain. So overall it's looking likely that there has been a swing to remain.
While Labour's position is FUBAR still...
From The Guardian via Today on R4.
Chakrabarti says Labour could back Leave
Shadow attorney general Shami Chakrabarti has said Labour could still back leaving the EU in a second referendum.In an interview with the Today programme she added to confusion about Labour evolving policy on Brexit by saying it was for the party to decide whether it would back leave or remain.
She said: “As to whether we would take one line or another in a referendum that would depend on what the deal was.
“Was it going to be a Labour deal with the closest possible relationship with Europe, or was it going to be a deal we thought less than satisfactory.”
Facts are never going to win any of these arguments. What we need is more emotive, jingoistic soundbites that us Remainers can rally around and reach out to the undecided with a powerful message of "ooh it's scary" or "there be dragons" or "wouldn't it be nice if we could all just get along" or "it's not actually Europe's fault you know" or "honestly, we really are better off in you know" but that's not very exciting, so it's doomed.
Corbyns now confirmed that a 2nd ref is some way off (even tho the end of the extension is not) & remain wouldn't be an option.
He also repeated that he thinks he can reopen the negotiations.
Labour is a pro- Brexit party
Chasing unicorns like the rest of them.
Hows that working out?
It was working out very well and Corbyn would have got away with it had it not been for that pesky Brexit
If he'd have come out with that last week, before the EU elections, I reckon they'd have ended up making the Tory's 9% look like a pretty respectable result
The Labour party is now a clueless political irrelevance as they march off down their electoral Lexit dead end.
The Lib Dems will be popping the champagne corks this afternoon
Apologies as I know I only do pop in and out on this thread but how the hell does that graph thing kimbers posted work? It's comparing ge results in which ukip have never done well with euro results in which they've done very well and drawing conclusions about where tory and Labour votes that never existed went.
23 ukip seats lost last week iirc, yet the graph suggests they barely existed.
Unless I'm very much mistaken no one has detailed voter data, certainly not for recent elections, eg kimbers voted a in xxxx, b in yyyyy and c in zzzz so it's a lot of guess work at where all these voters and votes are coming from and going to and data like that ^^^ is opinion masquerading as fact. You can infer from where the votes were placed certain things but, categorically and provably, people don't vote the same at GE and euros and there's no way of knowing if all the (now lost) previous labour voters in area a actually voted tory this time and every previous tory voter split to green/lib dem.
Or is it based on oh so accurate opinion polls and surveys?
hat graph wrecks Dazhs argument once and for all. Good post.
Can I say, we told you so Daz?
tbf the euros had low turnout and with fptp that doesnt translate into seats very well
BUT from that many labour voters have switched to the No Deal Brexit party, Corbyns tack to a soft Brexit seems unlikely to win them back & equally likely to keep away those that moved to green/lib dem
its here, from polls of 10,000 voters
yes its a poll
but like all the others it shows that labours strategy isnt working
Corbyns now confirmed that a 2nd ref is some way off (even tho the end of the extension is not) & remain wouldn’t be an option.
Yep, he really is incapable of listening to his party and his voters (or previous voters now as they have moved away)
Anyone who believes in Labour type policies and approach with remain thrown in can go to Green party (I have) but if there was a GE tomorrow I would guess they would get less than 5 seats. I think they picked the wrong name and people just see them as only about green issues.
sadly labour are still chasing the minority of their voters whove fled to farage, rather than the much larger number who have gone to pro-remain parties
Let's look at this from a G.E point of view.
Not sure how up to date this is now …
But as I understand it Labour is 64 seats short of a majority.
Labour has 45 target seats in England & Wales.
Most (79%) of these targets gains are (were) in marginal Tory leave-voting seats.
There are remain target seats in Scotland – but it would make sense to target E&W based on the Leave vote as SNP are more likely to form a coalition.
Last election Labour lost six constituencies – all Leave.
BUT from that many labour voters have switched to the No Deal Brexit party, Corbyns tack to a soft Brexit seems unlikely to win them back & equally likely to keep away those that moved to green/lib dem
A General Election will not be fought on just Brexit.
Kimbers, that graph wrecks Dazhs argument once and for all.
I'm not sure you understand what my argument is.
Hows that working out?
You been looking at too many people ripping up their membership cards live on twitter?
Most (79%) of these targets gains are (were) in marginal Tory leave-voting seats.
my point is that those seats now back farages hard brexit, Labour will not win them whether they back remain or a soft brexit, farage has convinced them that they are pretty much the same thing.
You been looking at too many people ripping up their membership cards live on twitter?
Well... election results. Similar thing, really
my point is that those seats now back farages hard brexit, Labour will not win them whether they back remain or a soft brexit, farage has convinced them that they are pretty much the same thing.
That's pure speculation based on the European elections. Who says that will transalate to a General Election ? - throw in Farage's attitude towards the NHS and I doubt it will be as you say.
A General Election will be more than Farage, no doubt about it.
Well… election results. Similar thing, really
We had a G.E recently?
but it would make sense to target E&W based on the Leave vote as SNP are more likely to form a coalition.
Difficulty there is SNP will demand an indy ref that Labour don't want. they'll have 0 chance of convincing people staying in the UK is the best way to stay in Europe, and I for one can't see IS2 going the same way as the first time, so very suddenly Labour have no coalition partners in Parliament and if we're very unlucky as they go the SNP will vote through any crap Corbyn tabled, including no deal, as a final screw you to the rest of us and a lovely exchange of favours for a favourable Scottish exit.
Thank you kimbers I'll have a read.
A General Election will not be fought on just Brexit.
Give it up man! Obviously a bunch of keyboard warriors on an internet forum are more in the know than a well funded party machine who can commission it's own private polling and focus groups, and who are hooked into the grassroots in every constituency in the country.
The solution to labour's interminable problem was/is a soft brexit deal. The remain fundamentalists have probably scuppured that now though so all we have left is a tory/Farage no deal, an an unhinged rightwing government. I hope you all enjoy the ensuing culture war. Turkeys voting for christmas.
We had a G.E recently?
Ask a silly question?
The solution to labour’s interminable problem was/is a soft brexit deal. The remain fundamentalists have probably scuppured that now though so all we have left is a tory/Farage no deal, an an unhinged rightwing government. I hope you all enjoy the ensuing culture war. Turkeys voting for christmas.
I do admire your tenacity in trying to blame US elitist remainers for brexit rather than tories/Labour for appeasing the likes of farage instead of opposing them! a good example is corbyn doubling down on his lies that he could reopen the WA negotiations.
Please tell me how he & other senior labour members repeating this lie helps?
youve also contradicted yourself, because if Labour are so hooked in with their private polling the path they are plotting will win anyway, regardless of us keyboard warriors
14% in a national election is fine… carry on… nothing to learn…
Incidentally,
If any leavers seriously have the brass neck to suggest that a "no deal" brexit (or indeed any form of brexit) would be the fault of the remainers, could I kindly ask if they'd mind awfully popping round to my house so that I can hit them in the face with a shovel?
You broke it, you fix it. We warned you what would happen three years ago and you all cried "la la la project fear I can't hear you" with your fingers in your ears, don't you dare go pointing fingers at us now.
Love and kisses,
Cougar.
you've had local elections, you've had eu elections. in both labour took a beating, pro remain parties made gains, brexit party hoovered up UKIPs positions and made gains from both main parties who weren't brexity enough for the nutjobs. and still you want to suggest that this doesn't point to mass desertion by remainers sick of labour's push me - pull you position?
this chap has done what in my opinion is a decent assessment of the situation
I do admire your tenacity in trying to blame US elitist remainers for brexit
Don't blame anyone who voted remain for brexit, the nutters on the other side obviously take that accolade. But this remain at all costs position has made it much more difficult to find a compromise and made it effectively impossible for labour to support a deal even if one could be agreed. The end result is pointless virtue signalling over a never going to happen referendum, and a split in the labour vote which will inevitably result in a tory govt. And if a no deal happens, the blame will be shared by people on both sides who couldn't see past their own entrenched opinions to come to a sensible compromise. Mutually assured destruction played out in real time, you really couldn't make it up.
And if a no deal happens, the blame will be shared by people on both sides who couldn’t see past their own entrenched opinions to come to a sensible compromise.
Labour ruled out Soft Brexit by having the same red lines as the Tories… an end to the Freedom of Movement, Leave the Single Market, Leave the Customs union… and now the years have passed… the chance to find a compromise is long since gone…
It's now Hard Brexit with or without a period of transition to soften the blow.
Pick one.
Or choose to stop Brexit.
Those that did what they could to find a soft compromise… "EEA for now", "Norway+" or whatever, have been squeezed out by both main parties whipping against them early in the process, and then deliberately freezing them out of the Withdrawl Agreement negotiations and running down the clock with delay after delay. Soft Brexit is dead. Time, and the leaders of the two main parties, have made this so. This is the primary reason why people will, and are, getting behind revoke or a referendum instead of a compromise deal… the compromises have been killed. For an alternative to this madness, look back at what the SNP have proposed along the way… the two main UK wide parties have screwed us off the back of a vote to Leave, by rejecting all the compromises that people are still telling remainers to get behind. Those compromises are dead. Dead.
Labour ruled out Soft Brexit by having the same red lines as the Tories
That is manifestly untrue and you know it is. You really are no better than the Faragistes with your alternative facts.
It's really not daz. No freedom of movement and 'a' customs Union. Fantasy.
I really think you need to read the link del posted above dazh
Labour intially were just as stunned as the Tories, Corbyn wanted A50 triggered immediately! & they have consistently been against FOM
They've championed A customs union, what does that mean?
And alignment to the Single Market, is that membership or not?
These were labours alternative facts
2+ years of constructive ambiguity, worked for a while, but their failure to come off the fence has doomed them.
Give it up man! Obviously a bunch of keyboard warriors on an internet forum are more in the know than a
well fundedideologically fanatical party machine who can commission it’s own private polling and focus groups,and who are hooked into the grassroots in every constituency in the country.and then ignore the results
Don’t blame anyone who voted remain for brexit, the nutters on the other side obviously take that accolade. But this remain at all costs position has made it much more difficult to find a compromise and made it effectively impossible for labour to support a deal even if one could be agreed. The end result is pointless virtue signalling over a never going to happen referendum, and a split in the labour vote which will inevitably result in a tory govt. And if a no deal happens, the blame will be shared by people on both sides who couldn’t see past their own entrenched opinions to come to a sensible compromise. Mutually assured destruction played out in real time, you really couldn’t make it up.
So what? It will be labour brexiteers who ae going to suffer the most from mutually assured destruction. No deal will kill Corbynism dead. I still wonder how Corbyn doesn't see this as the end game, no deal is the end of his political career as well as whoever is in charge of the Tories.
I'd prefer that to some shit soft brexit, which will inflame the right wing just as much as remain.
Tank the economy for a decade, let some gammons die from old age, own the narrative and make sure Nige and Jezza are blamed, kill Corbynism, make the voters who voted for Brexit feel the pain and understand the reality as opposed to the lies and exceptionalism. Offer the electorate a way out - by rejoining the EU. Remain is about the long game now and rejoining.
The people of the UK are going to pay a heavy price so that a few tax evading billionaires can continue to evade tax.
That's why "No Deal" is important to their bought and paid for Tory politicians. A deal will mean some measure of EU control over tax evasion at some point.
But this remain at all costs position has made it much more difficult to find a compromise and made it effectively impossible for labour to support a deal even if one could be agreed.
Because the uncomfortable truth here is that there is no leave "compromise" to be had. We've been through this before, why do you persist in trotting it out as fact? If someone wanted to set fire to your car, would you consider putting your windows through to be a fair compromise? However you slice it we'll all be worse off. If you've got two groups of people and can only please one or the other, choosing an action that doesn't please either of them isn't a compromise, it's insanity.
And again I'm repeating myself here, but how about this for a compromise: we revoke A50 and instead look at the reasons most (sane) people voted to leave, such as tighter immigration control and more money to the NHS, and address those issues. That would please almost everyone - remain and leave alike - bar the gammon extremists who won't be happy until the world burns. Why doesn't that option feature in your great compromise plan? Because truth be told you don't really want to please everyone at all do you, you little scamp, you're one of the ones playing with matches.
they have consistently been against FOM
As you well know labour's position was always that FoM as defined in the single market would end if we left the single market. That was a simple fact of law. Corbyn has always been clear, and repeated recently that we would have an ongoing need for two way free movement between the UK and EU. Labour have always been an open pro-immigration party so pretending otherwise by pointing out legal technicalities is daft.
They’ve championed A customs union, what does that mean?
Again, 'the' customs union was a statement of fact based on law. Labour have always been clear that we need to be in a permanent customs union with the EU that ensures frictionless trade as it exists now.
And alignment to the Single Market, is that membership or not?
It's membership in all but name. Personally I would prefer to stay in, but it's the end result that matters not the legal definition, and if it makes a deal easier to achieve then so be it.
Look, I know you're all still grasping at straws to justify cancelling brexit, it's a valiant and admirably stubborn effort. But making up straw men about whether labour policy is soft or hard brexit is transparently silly. By any definition by the outcomes it would produce labour policy is soft brexit. We would have frictionless trade, the same regulations and standards, and the same level of free movement (probably, this is the only doubt), in other words, a soft brexit.
Nahh Cougar, that's too sensible. I want to watch it all burn now so Jezza can realize how ****ing wrong he's been his whole life. I want to see him cry like May on tv.
Someone is clutching at straws, for sure @dazh. Still, at least we will still have "frictionless trade", despite our redlines on ending FoM and not being in the Single Market, just as May promised. You must be the last person to still believe this. Even she has long since given up using that phrase.
What a ****ing mess.
While the Tories are busy fighting with each other, like rats in a sack. Labour is starting to look more and more like an old bloke arguing with himself.
While down the allotment.
That's kind of the point dazh you can read labours position either way
This fence sitting isn't comprising, it's just failing to take a stand.
It's why labour are haemoraging votes to both leave & remain parties.
Leavers see Corbyn as untrustworthy* because he dares mention a 2nd ref, remainers see him as untrustworthy because he only mentions a 2nd ref after numerous caveats about general election, renegotiating the WA & other unicorns.
That's not bringing the country together, that's abdicating responsibility.
*Also worth noting the polling in Del's link that indicates Corbyn never appealed to lexit voting demographic anyway.
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It’s really not daz. No freedom of movement and ‘a’ customs Union. Fantasy.
Actually thats pretty much what Turkey has so its perfectly possible. a stupid idea yes but its feasable and possible
The longer Merkel is in office, the greater the horizons of her thinking expand. On April 17, 2018, members of the parliamentary group of Merkel's conservatives met in the Reichstag, the seat of German parliament. It was an opportunity to speak fundamentally about the EU and its future. Merkel offered a very odd twist at the meeting by taking a mental excursion into the early modern era. According to notes taken by attendees, she spoke about the bloody confessional wars that followed the Reformation and only came to an end with the Peace of Augsburg in 1555. At the time, Merkel said, people had the false belief that the period of strife and violence was behind them.
"But then the generation that had experienced all the misery before religious peace died," Merkel said. "They were gone. A new generation came that said: We don't want to make so many compromises. This is all too difficult for us." What followed was the catastrophe of the Thirty Years' War, which broke out in 1618. It ignited an inferno that would annihilate around one-third of the population on the territory of today's Germany and leave cities like Magdeburg in ruins.
"More than 70 years have also passed since the end of World War II," Merkel continued. She pointed out that great efforts were undertaken at the time to prevent a repeat of the carnage. The United Nations and the Security Council were established, and the international community agreed on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Merkel's message was clear: Just as people at the beginning of the 17th century lulled themselves into a deceptive sense of security, people today are once again deluding themselves about the stability of the world order. The layer of varnish covering civilization is a thin one.
On April 26, 2018, Merkel departed for Washington for her second visit to Donald Trump in the Oval Office. The trip was overshadowed by the threat of punitive tariffs against German cars. Merkel, though, was primarily concerned that Trump was about to withdraw from agreements that had been laboriously negotiated over the course of years and decades: the nuclear deal with Iran and the Paris climate agreement. A few months after her meeting with the president, Merkel once again spoke of the fragile Augsburg religious peace, saying: "Whether we have learned from history will become apparent in the coming decades."
That argument against retreating from international cooperation and interpendance was made admirablly by Shelia Hancock back in 2016, in the Channel4 referendum debate. It's the kind of thing Boris turned into "Project Fear predicts WWIII" to neuter the case for working together rather than pulling apart.
Anyway, back to the ever more obvious gap between what I'd call "Labour" and the runaway "Leadership" team of Corbyn&Milne&Murray&Lavery&Co on Brexit…
We've already done us ordinary voters… let's look at the much more committed members…
https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1134129653424250880?s=21
That’s not bringing the country together, that’s abdicating responsibility.
That's exactly what it is. Faced with a tough decision, the Labour leadership* decided to basically sit back and take on the role of spectators and let the Tory's get on with it, unencumbered. Apart from the critical junctures where Brexit looked in potential jeopardy when they quickly swung behind it with 3 line whips to carry on their Brexit facilitating
They all actually want Brexit, of course, as they're all lifelong Brexiteers. But obviously, they're too gutless and dishonest to actually come out and say that. They want it, but they don't want their fingerprints on it. Thus when it all goes to shit, which they know will happen very very quickly, they can sweep in to rescue a grateful nation that finally realises what it needed all along was, in fact, Socilaism/Corbynism
Unfortunately for them, most of us aren't that gullible. This thread is demonstrating some notable exceptions to that, but mainly....
* The word is used figuratively in this instance etc....
Klopp talking more sense than our politicians
https://twitter.com/channel4news/status/1134103954420391937?s=21
Actually thats pretty much what Turkey has so its perfectly possible.
I'll bear that in mind the next time I'm preparing a letter of invitation in order to support their visa application, so a visitor can come over from Turkey to see us for a few days...
a stupid idea yes but its feasable and possible
At least we can agree on that! 🙂
Already posted.
when they quickly swung behind it with 3 line whips to carry on their Brexit facilitating
Apart from whipping to support a second referendum twice and all the other occasions labour whipped against brexit. stop with the falshoods
Del - IIRC turkey has a customs union with the EU but is not in the single market and there is no freedom of movement.
The end result is pointless virtue signalling over a never going to happen referendum, and a split in the labour vote
This has happened. Now what do we do? Besides wish that it hadn't happened and vaguely hope that the remainers unsplit and back the discredited leader? How about take a clear stop brexit position? Not only would this be advantageous in electoral terms, it's also the right thing to do.
Oh Jesus H Corbett. How many times...
1. Three line whipped his MPs to trigger article 50, despite having nothing more concrete than ‘Brexit means Brexit’ about what was next
2. Three line whipped his MPs to remain outside the EEA and the customs union
3. Three line whipped his MPs to leave the single market
No... nothing at all very Brexity about any of that. I can understand your confusion.
Move along now. Nothing to see here...
indeed binners. 3 line whip in favour of a second ref twice plus other anti brexit whippings. Its confused and nuanced not brexit at all costs as you like to claim
BTW - are Abbot and O'Donnel included in your secret cabl that controls labour - they used to be IIRC but now both have come down firmly on the side of a second ref.
The people of the UK are going to pay a heavy price so that a few tax evading billionaires can continue to evade tax
Maybe they should work harder instead of sitting whining about how folks did better than they did.
It’s not really that nuanced, is it? It’s pretty straightforward support for Brexit at every critical vote. I don’t know where the nuance is in that.
The Corbyn cabal does seem to be shrinking by the day though, as even former close allies become exasperated with his hopeless Brexit facilitating. I see Paul Mason is the latest to be cast out. Looks like it’s just 4 or 5 of the hardcore Brexiteers in the bunker with him now.
He just says what Seamus tells him to say nowadays. Hence today’s statement
Del – IIRC turkey has a customs union with the EU but is not in the single market and there is no freedom of movement.
TJ this has been pointed out multiple times on this thread but the ignorance of some remainers of the workings of the EU makes the "gammons" seem extremely well informed.I don't think they should be allowed to vote in any subsequent referendum because they're clearly too thick.
Great quote from a former Corbyn supporter on the frankly brilliant ‘The Thick of it’ Facebook page...
You, Jeremy... when you asked me to join you, all you had was your principles, but over the last two years you've bent like a human *ing palm tree, swaying to the guff of these six-toed, born-to-rule pony*ers!
Sorry, the point I meant to add, but forgot to, crucially, is that despite the customs Union arrangements with Turkey, it is still difficult and expensive to get equipment in to and out of the place. Often 2 weeks to ship a piece of kit one way that would be anywhere within the EU the next morning. Turkey's arrangements are very far from where we need to be.
I don't think anyone is disputing a customs union yet not in the single market isn't possible.
It's just it's a shit idea.
philxx1975
Maybe they should work harder instead of sitting whining about how folks did better than they did.
They pay their taxes, don't they?
It might be time to just let Corbyn&Milne&co carry on as they are, as regards Brexit, hope for a snap General Election, and just move on…
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1134207549249654786?s=20