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It isn't the first time that extremists have got power by jumping on a populist bandwagon. The only comfort is that MEPs have no power, and they are more likely to be found out on a constituency by constituency basis rather than this regional poll. Is the bottom of Nigel's barrel deep enough to find enough candidates for a GE?
We just have to remember that UKIP polled had a massive vote share in council elections, which translated to the sum of **** all MPs at the following GE. So the FPTP system is at least good for something.
Out.
Strong argument grimep
Out.
Farrage you mean? Yes, i think the case for exiling the frog faced cretin is getting even stronger.
How do you feel life will be improved by being out?
What problems do you feel being out will solve and how will being out solve those problems better than being in?
What price is acceptable?
What has being in the EU stopped either you personally or you feel the country as a whole doing?
Be interesting to hear grimep 's response, but I suspect you'll get none.
The debate has become too polarised, look at that woman haranguing David Davies- Brexit is now a cult, much easier to submit to it completely, than accept that the world is a complex & scary place.
grimep Member
Out.
Nige...... Is that you Nige?
The debate has become too polarised, look at that woman haranguing David Davies- Brexit is now a cult, much easier to submit to it completely, than accept that the world is a complex & scary place.
What a lot of secularists don't get, is that whilst the belief in God and church attendance is dwindling - we are still religious. Mass movements and religion are interchangable and whilst god is not needed, they never exist without a devil. Both phenomena attract the same people, the lady shouting at David David is no different from any religious loon shouting at people outside Paddington with a microphone.
Here's a question.
When we first discovered we'd be involved in these elections the polls showed Brexit Party would walk it and they still look strong.
However, there was a disclaimer to say that pollsters gave greater onus to people who had said they'd voted in the EU elections before, and EU elections typically have low turnouts, the turnout is expected to be much higher this time, how accurate are the polls?
Nige…… Is that you Nige?
In your remaniac echo chamber, we are all Nige 😁
People really are THAT stupid?
Here we go again.I have no idea why people are surprised that people not engaged with politics will vote against their own interests. They’ve been doing that for as long as there have been elections.
I don’t think they’re stupid at all. The fact that they don’t trust politicians to act in their interests shows a level of understanding which seems lost on many who claim to be informed. Brexit is confirming all their prejudices and instincts, and the result, just as history has shown time and again, will be populist snake oil salesman rising to power.
grimep, can you answer any of these good questions;
How do you feel life will be improved by being out?
What problems do you feel being out will solve and how will being out solve those problems better than being in?
What price is acceptable?
What has being in the EU stopped either you personally or you feel the country as a whole doing?
Has anyone else see the video of Farage talking about resorting to guns if he doesn’t get the Brexit he wants?
I’m not aware that he’s being investigated for inciting violence but based on that video, assuming it’s not a spoof, I’m amazed he isn’t.
Is it a spoof?
The "don my Khaki" line? Not a fascist, with huge popular support, honest. Everything is going just fine here. Just fine…
The BBC are reporting the noises coming out of Westminster are that May has had a look at the numbers and is getting ready to pull her proposed fourth vote in June, and put it back until after the summer recess.
She's looking to further run down the clock and take it to the wire in order to try and scare people into voting for it in September/October
Because that worked really well the last time she tried it...
And the time before that...
And the time before that....
Injecting a little (black) humour, does that clip plus him crying over spilt milk in Newcastle remind anyone of John Cleese teaching recruits how to defend themselves against someone coming for them with a piece of fruit?
And yes Cleese did resort to pulling a gun. But that was Monty Python not real life.
Surely Corbyn will be thinking of another 'no confidence' vote in the govt. I don't think its te right thing to do; but I'd say if he was ever goign to get enough tory rebels then now woudl be the time
British Steel's collapse one the eve on Euro elections, in part, thanks to Brexit- putting 25,000 jobs at risk in pro-leave areas ought to kill off any support for Brexit, but common sense left this country a long time ago
It ought also be a massive kick in the backside to Labour to get off the freaking fence
We had the campaign and referendum 3 years ago! That was the time for arguing and justifying. Move on, you lost!
grimep
Member
We had the campaign and referendum 3 years ago! That was the time for arguing and justifying. Move on, you lost!
I think youll find the workers at British Steel have lost
Ill take it you have no answers to the questions youve been asked then
fortunately we live in a democracy and I get to keep asking questions of government & policy, no matter how much you'd like to shut that down.
grimep
We had the campaign and referendum 3 years ago! That was the time for arguing and justifying. Move on, you lost!
Correct. Three years ago we lost, the other lot won (actually 99% of them lost too they just haven’t realised yet).
Time to move on.
I have. I’m now trying to make sure we don’t leave. Whereas the Brexies are still stuck sometime around summer 2016.
You won that round. Get over it.
PS - please let grimep be a contraction of Grimsby MEP.
PPS - what do you think of the Brexit Now Party’s leader advocating gun violence?
We had the campaign and referendum 3 years ago! That was the time for arguing and justifying. Move on, you lost!
It was mainly a time of bare faced lying. Lies, lies, and more lies.
Move on, you lost!
What! When I've got the rest of my life for taking revenge and taking the Mickey. 🙂 I'll be voting for the pro-EU party least likely to be handing out cake if ever Brexit happens (EM then) and it gets to trying to negotiate a trade deal.
It's hasn't happened yet and even if it does that's just the start.
the Brexies are still stuck sometime around summer
20161852.
Fify...
Cruel Fadda, cruel. 😄
I first typed 1952, but I went further when I though about this apparent yearning for the days of the empire, when everything was so perfect....
British Steel’s collapse one the eve on Euro elections, in part, thanks to Brexit- putting 25,000 jobs at risk in pro-leave areas ought to kill off any support for Brexit, but common sense left this country a long time ago
They are already blaming the EU for this, state aid rules and all that nonsense.
And of course in those days donning khaki and grabbing a rifle was acceptable behaviour for public school boys like Farage.
Only uniforms probably were khaki then.
“Off on a peasant shoot mother, back soon”
“He did say pheasant didn’t he?”
Please note I’m not really suggesting that Farage supports shooting the working classes (at least not those who aren’t armed with milkshakes).
Strong argument grimep
Were you expecting more?
Remainers biggest failings which is still happening is to try and use reason, and facts in arguments with these people, and then stupidly expect the same back.
You cannot reason with the unreasonable, then it will have to come to blows, or watch your country disappear down a populist toilet.
What do yous think of this as newish take on campaigning?
https://www.independent.ie/videos/irish-news/watch-mep-candidate-ben-gilroys-hurleysmashing-campaign-video-goes-viral-38132525.html
We had the campaign and referendum
3 years agoin 1972! That was the time for arguing and justifying. Move on, you lost!
Oh wait, apparently if there's a referendum result you don't like, you can spend the next 40 years actively campaigning to have it reversed, so that's OK.
@molgrips - that New Yorker article is fascinating, cheers for the link. Everyone should go read it.
Seems an apt time to remind everyone of the advantages of Killfile Non Bio. Banishes all germs and grime(p) and leads to a more satisfying user experience.
Keep you forum clean with Killfile Non Bio.
Danny as much as I appreciate the Killfile would be a great thing, to not be able to see the other side leaves this place as an echo chamber with very limited viewpoints and gives an biased view of the world outside. Much better to let them in to your world to give a more balanced perception of what's going on. Even if it would be better as a 50/50 reasoned debate rather than the usual Brexiteer's ridiculous, jingoistic nonsense.
They were interviewing folks from the Borders on Radio Scotia this morning, I was listening whilst running to work, the ignorance levels were incredible, off the scale.
The less than happy ex-little England Tory voters residing in the area are now considering voting for Farage instead, as 'at least he's a man of his word'....
Jesus wept.
Banishes all germs and grime(p) and leads to a more satisfying user experience.
You mean it makes it even more of an echo chamber. If you simply ignore those with whom you disagree you're part of the problem.
None of the potential leadership contenders bothered to turn up for PMQ's, preferring to work on their campaigns instead. Even Chris Grayling stayed away. Which will obviously be triggered when they all vote against her deal again. If it ever gets voted on. Which now looks questionable
Jezza managed to stay consistent and avoid mentioning the war again. So the day before the EU elections, both party leaders didn't mention the elephant in the room that is the 'B' word. Not that its very important, or owt?
Its no wonder Farage is doing so well with such utterly spineless political cowardice on display from people who's job title apparently includes the word 'leader'
May is going to now detail how her bill has changed in 'bold, new' ways as she attempts to stick lipstick on a pig yet again
I imagine I'm not in the Daily Telegraph's demographic,being under 80 and not a retired general but today's headline nailed it.Link courtesy of the Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/22/desperate-deluded-doomed-what-the-papers-say-on-mays-new-brexit-deal
Tomorrow will be a good day, tomorrow will be good good day ... (the music in the background whoever the band is ...)
Coz it's 2019 European elections ...
I will just have to drink more coffee if I can wait for the result.
Oh ya ... I have already voted for Brexit Party ...
If you simply ignore those with whom you disagree you’re part of the problem.
Not really. Just blocking trolls who pop in, drop a less than five word trolling post and won’t engage any further is just, well, denying trolls the attention they seems to need (for whatever sad reason).
I haven’t Killfiled dazh, for example as he tries (and god bless him he does try) to defend the indefensible and often ends up tying himself up in amusing knots in doing so.
Engage, spell out your position and justify it, and there is no need for a Killfile.
Get aggro when it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny and start effing and blinding then the mods will hand out a holiday.
Just troll every so often for kicks - be ignored/killfiled.
I have already voted for Brexit Party
Great, was it their policy on the environment, taxation, workers rights, health or education that swung it for you. Or will you 'know what you voted for' when that becomes plain after the fact, like so many No Deal advocates are claiming now?
Not really. Just blocking trolls who pop in, drop a less than five word trolling post and won’t engage any further is just, well, denying trolls the attention they seems to need (for whatever sad reason).
Exactly. grimes is clearly just a troll and adds no alternative view. Notice how they haven't answered the good questions asked (twice) and they never will.
I don’t think they’re stupid at all. The fact that they don’t trust politicians to act in their interests shows a level of understanding which seems lost on many who claim to be informed. Brexit is confirming all their prejudices and instincts, and the result, just as history has shown time and again, will be populist snake oil salesman rising to power.
Rabid suspicion has nothing in it of skepticism. The suspicious mind believes more than it doubts. It believes in a formidable and ineradicable evil lurking in every person. - E. Hoffer. The True Believer.
In a way, you are right. Politicians have forgotten the basic concepts taught by Hoffer when dealing with keeping the proles happy.
It has often been said that power corrupts. But it is perhaps equally important to realize that weakness, too, corrupts. Power corrupts the few, while weakness corrupts the many. Hatred, malice, rudeness, intolerance, and suspicion are the faults of weakness. The resentment of the weak does not spring from any injustice done to them but from the sense of inadequacy and impotence. We cannot win the weak by sharing our wealth with them. They feel our generosity as oppression. St. Vincent De Paul cautioned his disciples to deport themselves so that the poor "will forgive them the bread you give themb- Hoffer....again.
It's almost as if people worked out how to deal with political mentalists 60 years ago. Who'd have thought.
Oh ya … I have already voted for Brexit Party …
Not really been keeping up with what's going on BREXIT wise - so can someone explain a couple of things to me please.
May's new deal - if voted through also includes an allowance for Parliament to vote on whether we should have another referendum?
Isn't this basically so she can get them to pass it and then say "I delivered a deal - but the rest of Government wants to have a re-count"
I have become ambivalent to BREXIT and politics as the elected representatives feel it's ok to push their own agenda and not what their constituents or country voted for.
So if they back May's deal can we guarantee that there will be another vote? If there is I think it'll be to remain.
But if we do remain I think we need to look long and hard at our relationship with the EU.
I take it you don't have any answers...
Move on, you lost
F@@@ me, it doesn't take long, does it?
So if they back May’s deal can we guarantee that there will be another vote? If there is I think it’ll be to remain.
No. If they back May's deal there will be a vote (in parliament) on whether to have another vote (2nd ref). That vote won't go through because not enough Labour or Tory MPs want a 2nd ref, hence no 2nd ref.
I have become ambivalent to BREXIT and politics as the elected representatives feel it’s ok to push their own agenda and not what their constituents or country voted for.
Country didn't vote FOR anything specific.
Great, was it their policy on the environment, taxation, workers rights, health or education that swung it for you. Or will you ‘know what you voted for’ when that becomes plain after the fact, like so many No Deal advocates are claiming now?
Nope, the decision is mine with no influence from any political parties at all ... I don't need anyone to decide for me really.
From day one since Referendum, Bureaucracy (EU bureaucratic system) has swung it for me or the creation of an even large one.
The argument for and against bureaucracy have been going for centuries unfortunately the cycle now, for me, is to anti-bureaucracy. EU bureaucratic system is just a system that needs dismantling.
Of course there is not the same level of bureaucracy in the UK, after we have left. Who are you going to vote for then - which party is the anti-bereaucracy party?
Someone a bit further up mentioned religion - I joined a few of the Pro-brexit groups on Facebook. The similarities to the flat earthers & conspiracy theorists are remarkable.
As for the Brexit Party - anyone who is dumb enough to vote for them really doesn't deserve to have a vote.
The argument for and against bureaucracy have been going for centuries unfortunately the cycle now, for me, is to anti-bureaucracy. EU bureaucratic system is just a system that needs dismantling.
this where your argument eats itself, brexit has created more bureaucracy than ever before
this is why that voting for farage will only leave you more dissapointed, but hey, its your choice!
The similarities to the flat earthers & conspiracy theorists are remarkable.
Somethigng I've noticed too. The two lexiteers I know - a weird breed - also believe a lot of preposterous nonsense such as Mossad being behind 9/11
Of course there is not the same level of bureaucracy in the UK, after we have left. Who are you going to vote for then – which party is the anti-bereaucracy party?
That depends on who I can trust i.e. the person.
I don't look at the policies or whatever manifesto shite. They can have the best of both but if they are not sincere then they are no good.
As for the Brexit Party – anyone who is dumb enough to vote for them really doesn’t deserve to have a vote.
You are absolutely right. 🤣
The argument for and against bureaucracy have been going for centuries unfortunately the cycle now, for me, is to anti-bureaucracy. EU bureaucratic system is just a system that needs dismantling.
The EU removes loads of bureaucracy. You are naive if you think otherwise. We will have shitloads more paperwork if we leave.
I do know think theres a valid justification for suspending this whole democracy lark until we sort the education system out so that the average measure of ignorance manages to be raised above 'village idiot' levels
In the meantime we could hand over the logistics of running the country over to Tesco, or Amazon or someone
You are absolutely right. 🤣
I'm glad you agree - I mean for you all you know their manifesto might just be sterlisation of all those that voted for us.
Yep, I look at Nigel Farage and my first thought is "now there's someone I trust to run a country in a manner I thoroughly approve of".
Idiot.
I don’t look at the policies or whatever manifesto shite.
Given that the brexit party have not given you any indication of how they would do brexit - and they are a single item party so quite why I cannot fathom - how do you define them as sincere?
That depends on who I can trust i.e. the person.
Okay, who can you trust to remove bureaucracy? (as that oddly seems to be your main issue)
Would this be the removal of bureaucracy that has resulted in every single government department recruiting and training loads and loads more staff, at huge expense, to cope with their increased workload?
Or the removal of bureaucracy that will mean spending billions of pounds on replicating existing EU systems once we can no longer use them?
Hurray for the 'bonfire of red tape'
The only 'removal of bureaucracy' will be when they abolish environmental controls and employment law, so thats two things that will no longer need to be enforced
The EU removes loads of bureaucracy. You are naive if you think otherwise.
Like I said the EU bureaucratic system just happened to appear at the wrong time and at the wrong moment. They need to be dismantle.
We will have shitloads more paperwork if we leave.
The problem with bureaucracy is that they are not satisfied with having power in their own organisation and system. They want to extend their power beyond themselves to impose on others. "Paperworks" is the least of your worries.
I’m glad you agree – I mean for you all you know their manifesto might just be sterlisation of all those that voted for us.
I think you should make it clearer to All of them.
Tell them they need to show their manifesto.
Whats it like, being you?
Farage will be a better PM than Gove or Bojo
Okay, who can you trust to remove bureaucracy? (as that oddly seems to be your main issue)
Certainly not the main parties at the moment as they are going to make it worst. They are making the EU bureaucratic machinery much more powerful and I want to dismantle that. The best way for me to do so is by voting for anyone that can have a chance of dismantling that.
Would this be the removal of bureaucracy that has resulted in every single government department recruiting and training loads and loads more staff, at huge expense, to cope with their increased workload?
That depends on who are managing them. As we the former colonial state used to say the British are very good at Administration ... The British are "born" or trained bureaucrats and they will deal with it. That is why I want the already bureaucratic British system to be out of an even larger EU bureaucratic system.
The only ‘removal of bureaucracy’ will be when they abolish environmental controls and employment law, so thats two things that will no longer need to be enforced
That all depends on the people ...
Not enough milkshakes in the world if that happens.
Not really been keeping up with what’s going on BREXIT wise – so can someone explain a couple of things to me please.
May’s new deal – if voted through also includes an allowance for Parliament to vote on whether we should have another referendum?
Isn’t this basically so she can get them to pass it and then say “I delivered a deal – but the rest of Government wants to have a re-count”
I have become ambivalent to BREXIT and politics as the elected representatives feel it’s ok to push their own agenda and not what their constituents or country voted for.
So if they back May’s deal can we guarantee that there will be another vote? If there is I think it’ll be to remain.
But if we do remain I think we need to look long and hard at our relationship with the EU.
I said as much yesterday.
We (STW) are really no better than all the entrenched Brexiteers If we assume we know best and won't be happy until someone unilaterally revokes A50. If that happens it could be as bad for the UK as leaving, worse as we tear ourselves apart over it for a generation or more.
What I want, and what a lot of people want is a 2nd, fact based vote - not a Remain or Unicorns vote, a vote - this is 'the deal' the Negotiations are over, they're done, that was last year and the year before and I'm sure the JRM, Farage and Boris's of the world will say they'd had done a better job, but they didn't do a good enough job to get into a position to do so, so what?
So, the people of the UK - do you want to Remain as we are now, or Leave under the terms the Government has negotiated? If we vote to leave then that sucks, but at least we did so knowing our fate.
Ideally I'd like to see Farage especially put under a microscope, but he seems to have the right sort of friends to avoid that happening.
If both sides, now we're in possession of facts think they've got the numbers, then there's nothing to fear, and you know - we might just all accept it.
How do you measure degrees of monumentally, catastrophically awful?
One thing I think most people can all agree on is that every single one of the candidates for next PM doesn't really bear thinking about, and within weeks we'll be looking back on the Maybots term as a golden age of 'strong and stable' political leadership
Or the removal of bureaucracy that will mean spending billions of pounds on replicating existing EU systems once we can no longer use them?
There is a whole new department been set up in Reading, dealing with unfair trade practices, previously done by the EU.
They were supposed to be in place and ready to go in March, so I imagine they are sat around twiddling their thumbs at the moment.
How do you measure degrees of monumentally, catastrophically awful?
Although bureaucracy is inevitable contributing more will be catastrophic by itself. From time to time it needs to be dismantle again to restart. The cycle goes on ...
Not enough milkshakes in the world if that happens.
If you don't like democracy, don't have a democracy
One thing I think most people can all agree on is that every single one of the candidates for next PM doesn’t really bear thinking about, and within weeks we’ll be looking back on the Maybots term as a golden age of ‘strong and stable’ political leadership
Not at all Farage seems to be the least moronic of them all.
Its like a machine thats been infected by the restless, toxic spirit of Anne Widdacombe, is now malfunctioning and is just randomly generating words.
Its weirdly compelling
Chewkw, what do you think the word 'bureaucracy' actually means?
If you don’t like democracy, don’t have a democracy
Thing is, there are all sorts of different flavours of democracy. Bit like Brexit. And milkshakes.
Certainly not the main parties at the moment as they are going to make it worse
Remember though it is not about the parties or manifesto's and all that rubbish, it is all about the person you trust (your words on this very page)
So again - which person will you be voting for who is going to remove bureaucracy ?
philxx1975
Member
Farage will be a better PM than Gove or Bojo
That's a low bar to reach. My dog could probably do a better job of being PM that those two, three, and he's getting old and likes to sleep a lot more than he used to.
I understand your point though, and have a low opinion of most MPs too, but I disagree that that seems to be the least moronic, unless you think duplicity and scheming make that statement true. He's a populist with shady funding and unclear personal motivations, who pretends to be a man of the common people, whilst hiding significant personal wealth, dodgy investment and some really quite worrying personal philosophies.
If you are fine with that, fill your boots. I'm not. I can't trust someone that two-faced, that thin-skinned, that racist and inflammatory, so I do not support him or his party. Politics is about building consensus, not being divisive.
That video of Farage saying he’ll don khaki & pick up a rifle really boils my p1ss.
The closest that horrible, gutless fekker has ever got to khaki is the skid stain he left in his y-fronts!
Chewkw, what do you think the word ‘bureaucracy’ actually means?
System of administration governed by power and authority that expands beyond it intended parameters.
Its like a machine thats been infected by the restless, toxic spirit of Anne Widdacombe, is now malfunctioning and is just randomly generating words.
Its weirdly compelling
The machine analogy is commonly referred but just like a machine you replace them. Young people always want freedom etc but what they don't know is that voting for or supporting the EU bureaucratic system is actually the opposite of what they want. They don't yet but one day they will find out the hard way where power and control extend beyond the system into their lives.
From the looks of things, some of you are in danger of falling into a hole filled with non-sequitur and poorly-informed irrational nonsense. In that case, I strongly recommend the Killfile to preserve your sanity.
Back to the discussion in hand, I've tweeted prominent Brexiteers, have written to my (Conservative) MP and have asked the same question again and again.
How will Brexit benefit me and my family?
Has anyone else had an answer to this fundamental question?
Although bureaucracy is inevitable contributing more will be catastrophic by itself. From time to time it needs to be dismantle again to restart. The cycle goes on …
I read that a few times and am still not sure what you are actually saying. I assume you heard that, thought it sounded smart and you are now busy repeating it.
Give us a example of a piece of EU bureaucracy that you think is problematic and will go away in your post Brexit utopia.....
If you also have an issue with EU laws (I suspect you do) I set the same challenge there as well. Name a law that will be improved after Brexit.
*coughs*
Killfile. It'll save your sanity.