[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

The Irish Times article ([url= https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/five-solutions-to-brexit-border-question-and-five-problems-1.3306996?mode=amp ]here[/url]) doesn't contain any final paragraphs on making the Fitzgerald concept work, to be fair they don't on any of the five proposed systems they look at (and I'm not bothered enough to buy the FT) Interesting quote re any WTO move by U.K. "Under rules set by the World Trade Organisation, both Britain and the EU would be obliged to have sufficient controls at their borders on goods movements" so the concept of no hard border and WTO may be incompatible

teamhurtmore - Member
Both would be bad

With soft / negotiated Brexit making a full set of three bad things...

True IGM we are our own worst enemy

Perhaps they were avoiding FitzGerald’s comments about the current direction being a clear lose:lose

the consequences of that (HB) would be disastrous, with damage to the EU, of course, and to Ireland in particular

Be careful what you wish for!

We haven’t started negotiating the issues that determine everything else.

How much can we negotiate?
May drew up to her red lines on No deal, ECJ, Single Market & Customs Union very early on (all aimed at pleasing the press rather than being good for the country)

EU always been clear they don't want us to pick & choose from 4 freedoms, but Norway or Swiss options available.

But we were hamstrung most by David Davis signing up to the EU scheduling without a whimper of protest, the minute he agreed to that the EU had is by the balls.

Im not sure whether it was, ignorance, shock after the election result or some cunning strategy to bluff the EU, but it's led to this impasse

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Thick as mince

Be careful what you wish for!

Provocative empty statement. Hungry?

Thanks for the link kilo

Two good articles in two papers today. Makes a change

So did anyone listen to Craig Mackinlay (Tory/ex-UKIP) on the Today programme this morning trying to explain why, as a member of the Brexit select committee, he thought it was perfectly reasonable for the government not to trust his committee with the uncensored versions of the Brexit impact reports?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09gbn38 (2:53 onwards)

I heard it

To be fair to him he didn't actually use the words 'Saboteurs', 'Traitors' or 'Enemies of the People', he merely implied it.

When does it become law that every school and workplace has to stand to attention, salute to the picture of the queen and sing the national anthem every morning? It surely can't be long now?

Yep.

Complete blame shift onto accusing "some members" and specifically Labour of trying to act against "the national interest" by asking for information.

I suspect that is the new narrative.

The government is ignoring the will of parliament for our own good.

When does it become law that every school and workplace has to stand to attention, salute to the picture of the queen and sing the national anthem every morning?

Won't happen now the future King's brother is marrying... a.....a....a.....a DARKIE!

I was unfortunate enough to witness a white supremacist's march in Durham at the weekend; their tiny brains must be exploding with the problem.

Priti Patel has just added to the debate, by gracing us with the benefit of her opinion. And why shouldn't she? I think we can all admire her sterling record on international diplomacy

[i]My views on money are pretty clear, I don’t like spending money so I would have told the EU in particular to sod off with their excessive financial demands.[/i]

Thanks for your contribution Priti

My views on money are pretty clear, I don’t like spending money so I would have told the EU in particular to sod off with their excessive financial demands.

binnesr, please use her full title... Disgraced former development sectretary Patel?

My views on money are pretty clear, I don’t like spending money so I would have told the EU in particular to sod off with their excessive financial demands.

thats simply not true, she paid for that holiday to Israel all by herself, as it was all work she couldve easily claimed it back in expenses

Its been a while since a Tory Brexiter tried to seriusly undermine May & hamper the negotiations, almost reassuring to see normal service resumed

Ooooooooh!

Is something good about to happen?

Here's hoping that Davis et al are totally exposed as trying to suppress inconvenient information whilst making a mess of 'negotiations'. Some noise from Priti Patel can't hide the fact that Davis is being hauled into the headmaster's office for a bit of a frank exchange.

Could this....please.....be the start of this nonsense starting to be slowed down to an eventual halt?

I love the conceit that releasing the Brexit analysis unredacted could lead to a weakened 'negotiating' position with the EU! Like they don't realise we are over a barrel anyway.

Ludicrous.

Reading through the accusations and counter-accusations between the government and the Brexit committee there is a stark difference in the precision of the language.

Brexit Committee - specific and to the point.

Government - vague, wishy-washy, obfuscatory, evasive.

Makes you wonder who really has the best interests of the UK at heart......

Well, it looks like the Irish government has resolved its issues so that there won't be a general election that the Brexiteers all wanted. So the situation stays the same there. They'll veto any deal that involves a hard border, so that remains as irreconcilable as ever.

And weren't the German elections meant to deliver progress?

Its almost as if they're desperately clutching at straws to try and wish-in some desperate hope from somewhere.... anywhere.... or failing that, then someone else to blame for this monumental cluster-****!

Well, it looks like the Irish government has resolved its issues so that there won't be a general election that the Brexiteers all wanted. So the situation stays the same there. They'll veto any deal that involves a hard border, so that remains as irreconcilable as ever.

So what will be their endgame? Who loses most in that scenario - the UK or RoI?

teamhurtmore - Member
Well, it looks like the Irish government has resolved its issues so that there won't be a general election that the Brexiteers all wanted. So the situation stays the same there. They'll veto any deal that involves a hard border, so that remains as irreconcilable as ever.

So what will be their endgame? Who loses most in that scenario - the UK or RoI?

wtf didnt Fitzgerald just quit sooner?

tbh I think that the EU wouldve backed the Irish position regardless of whether they government was having an election, its not so much the Irish position as the EU position, has been from day 1.

all itll take is for Germany to form a new coalition and all the brexiters will have their schadenfreude taken away from them!*

meanwhile Davis is floundering badly in the HoC, I really wouldnt be surprised if we had a new Brexit secretary before we had a new PM at this rate!

As for Eire, May has boxed herself in with CU & SM red lines, so the Irish will want compensating some how, straight up cash would be a disaster for May so it will have to be something May can sell- a promise of a trade deal, but one that massively favours Ireland somehow, shed let them have th Isle of Mann if we didnt need all the tax havens we can hold on to right now 😉

*quite right too, wouldnt want to dilute our proud [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germanic_languages ]english language[/url] with a german word

So what will be their endgame? Who loses most in that scenario - the UK or RoI?

There are no winners here. But the Irish have at least got enough intelligence to recognise this. But then they seem to inhabit a world called 'reality'. Not the one in David Davis' head which involves soft borders patrolled by magic fairies in drones and zeppelins

here we go
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True binners

Kimbers - how can you box yourself in. We have voted to end membership of the Eu and hence single market and CU. We are now attempting - largely in vain - to negotiate the terms of our access to the SM and vice versa.

As for Eire, May has boxed herself in with CU & SM red lines

I think she'll go down as not just the worst PM in history, but the worst politician. Triggering article 50 without a clue what to do next, then starting your negotiations (from an incredibly weak position) by stating what is absolutely non-negotiable.

The utter ineptitude and blind stupidity really is breath-taking

Brexit: He who loses least "wins"

We have voted to end membership of the Eu and hence single market and CU.

yeah the ballot paper was never that specific as you well know

you also know that there are other options on the table

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binners - Member
Well, it looks like the Irish government has resolved its issues so that there won't be a general election that the Brexiteers all wanted. So the situation stays the same there.

I think the situation was going to remain the same even if there had been a general election, FF or SF or any combination, weren't going to give May an easier time on the border

I think the situation was going to remain the same even if there had been a general election, FF or SF or any combination, weren't going to give May an easier time on the border

This. (No “think” about it either.)

How can you put multiple options on a ballot paper when those are things that can only be negotiated at a later date?

Very, very different from what you describe in terms of collecting the deals

Of course, BH is a closed end investment company, which is a completely different type of business to a bank. However, it had at least one business unit that operated on a similar basis as I used to collaborate and compete with it.

One other point to clarify, in the context of a bank,long term is generally anything with a maturity of more one year.

Yep whereas short term to us is probably 5-10 years.

We have voted to end membership of the Eu and hence single market and CU.

How can you put multiple options on a ballot paper when those are things that can only be negotiated at a later date?

> sigh <

We get that there are countries that are not members of the EU, but operate in the SM and/or CU, and so do you. The referendum result was not "the people" asking to be outside either the SM or CU, that is a decision being made by politicans (on all sides). The Ireland question provokes answers that nearly all involve all the UK and all of the island of Ireland having [s]some[/s] many harmonisations similar to those the SM & CU facilitate.

How can you claim multiple independent decisions were made by the electorate when there was only one binary choice on the ballot paper?

How can you put multiple options on a ballot paper when those are things that can only be negotiated at a later date?

Maybe you should consider a referendum to be a guide to what the public wants, and [i]then[/i] try and see if it's possible. Maybe you could call it an 'advisory' referendum.

And "possible" should include not risking throwing our closet neighbour, as well as part of the UK, out with the bath water.

They voted to end membership of EU and we know what that means.

They voted to end membership of EU and we know what that means.

They voted to end membership of EU and we know what that means.

It should have been a starting point for a long period of analysis and planning - and then another ref to make sure we're still on board.

[url= http://voxeu.org/article/300-million-week-output-cost-brexit-vote ]Nice analysis[/url] of the current cost of brexit by modelling UK economy and looking at difference post brexit vote.

What happened to the £350M/week? Oh we left off the minus sign... Well the bus was red,. and as all accountants know red means...

They voted to end membership of EU and we know what that means.

Do we? Does it rule out operating in either the SM, like Norway, or CU, like Turkey? Or is it the PM ruling both out?

How can you put multiple options on a ballot paper when those are things that can only be negotiated at a later date?

So they need negotiating… political decisions to be made on all sides… not determined by the advisory referendum.

Keeping options off the table, that could be useful on the island of Ireland, wasn't on any ballet paper.

Gibratar, So how are we going to fix that one then?

£60bn by the end of 2018 TiRed?

We need to make sure we bill the Brexies directly. Remain voters should have no part in paying this bill.

Priti Patel is telling it "like it is" in the papers about Brexit

How this individual is still an MP is staggering, covert non sanctioned negotiation with a foreign government?

Even Reese Mogg has thrown his Nanny out of the Pram over the "papers" not being released.

So treason, contempt are now acceptable?

They voted to end membership of EU and we know what that means.

I remember quite a bit about a Norway style exit.

Not much about North Korea type one.

We need to make sure we bill the Brexies directly. Remain voters should have no part in paying this bill.

Yep. A classic example of needing to be careful what you wish for.

I wonder what would happen if a significant number of remain voters (let's call them 'grown-ups' for simplicity) deducted amounts from their tax bill in lieu of this totally unnecessary and retrograde process.

Hmm, but to be fair we always have to pay taxes to fund things we don't agree with, don't we? Remainders would simply cite that. My tax pounds funded the Iraq war after all. Don't think you'd get far with that.

No but on the other hand taking a chunk off the state pension would seem fair enough.