No I did note. I felt that this specific referendum was s bad idea since we did not know what a future EU would look like, so pointless to vote on something that by design could not survive in its current form.
You asked a different question about democracy. As I said some like Aristotle felt it was a bad idea for the reasons you allude to. I don’t share that view
I prefer freedom to vote, to speak, to move, to ride without a helmet etc. No harm in discussing it (obviously) but I do draw the line at lying in an attempt to subvert the result
In my game we might ask a customer to pay for a new substation to supply their factory - but it would be on our balance sheet (at zero value if they paid) not on theirs.
For what it's worth, I can confirm that this indeed the case. If I want an electrical connection for a new building I have to pay to get a design/quote upfront and then provide a piece of land for said substation and provide unfettered access to the substation that just cost me, oh, £70k. And it's not even mine...
And if it's a really big load I might also get hit for infrastructure reinforcement too!
I prefer freedom to vote, to speak, to move, to ride without a helmet etc
Only once though 😉
Ah ok.
Democracy in principle is a good idea, but democracy is not a system of government. It is not a constitution. And it is not the answer to everything, in the same way that water is good when you are thirsty but drowning is not.
A system of government needs to be based on democracy. How you do this is what differentiates good government from bad. That's why most countries go for representative democracy.
Democracy also requires a well informed electorate. Our system is only a quasi democracy anyway given the appointed house and FPTP
Mol. When our representative government voted what was the result and how did it compare to the referendum result?
I would much prefer to see democracy replaced with sortition. Democracy is fine except for the fact it involves people who [i]want[/i] to be in charge, which should preclude you from being in charge of anything, selected by people who don't have the time to do their research.
What's your point?
They voted that way, knowing it was a bad idea, because they felt they had to implement the result of the referendum. Whilst we had representatives, the normal process was subverted by having a referendum.
I still don't know what you are getting at.
So, making people who don't want to make decisions take all the big ones? Sounds very scary BruceWee.
EMA moving to Holland is good result for the Dutch
Sad day for British scientific & medical research
But hey 'will of the people'
I see. Letting the plebs have a say is subversive. At least I get your point 😉
Got my first anti Irish comment in a while today(30 years!), thank you Brexit!
Kimbers - but its all going so well.......no damage is being done
So, making people who don't want to make decisions take all the big ones? Sounds very scary BruceWee.
No more scary than our current legal system, surely?
The wonderful thing about the UK system is that it is so ridiculous to start with that no idea can be dismissed out of hand. Couldn't the House of Lords be replaced with a few hundred randomly selected individuals?
If you were to present new laws in the same way that jury trials have a prosecution and defence you could have for and against presented to the voters directly. You take away their access to the internet and have them listen to arguments and rebuttals and make an informed decision without having to worry about vested interests and re-election.
Would it be that much worse than the House of Lords?
For all it’s faults the HOL does a largely brilliantly job. Their briefing papers are awesome.
Some of the posts cause me to imagine deaf people shouting at each other.
Would it be that much worse than the House of Lords?
Sophistry, an issue picked up millennia ago.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-sophstate/
The idea is fine, but you need to be aware of the power of the orator.
The British government was powerless to stop the relocation of these two prized regulatory bodies, secured by previous Conservative prime ministers. [b]The Department for Exiting the European Union had claimed the future of the agencies would be subject to the Brexit negotiations, a claim that caused disbelief in Brussels.[/b]
Delusions and lies of the leavers laid bare. It really is incredible the damage being done to the UK.
Delusions and lies of the leavers laid bare. It really is incredible the damage being done to the UK.
Whatever happens next the damage has been done.
some o f it is already done - there is so much more to come.
some o f it is already done - there is so much more to come.
I think more than some, investment decisions made, even cancelling brexit won't undo a lot of the damage. Future plans will reflect this as well.
Metalheart - shouldn’t have to pay for a quote. That is changing due to certain developers abusing the situation but for now.
On the plus side although we own the sub, we maintain it repair it and eventually replace it.
Not an expert but I thought that ancient greek democracy was closer to the referendum-style than the representation-style that we actually use for most of our governance.
EMA moving to Holland is good result for the DutchSad day for British scientific & medical research
But hey 'will of the people'
Remember, Gove said we’ve had enough of experts....
Not an expert but I thought that ancient greek democracy was closer to the referendum-style than the representation-style that we actually use for most of our governance.
I am no expert, but its what my MA is in so i have some idea of what was going on.
depends on the city state, the traditional model is Athens, points that have to be considered at the end of a term the holder was judged on performance and ultimately expelled. Yes it was the citizens who decided what went on, but citizen was a specific group and far from the majority of the population. Slavery was the norm.
There are lessons to learn from Athens though, a subverted democracy that was destroyed by its own arrogance.
@igm: I was just backing up your earlier statement. And adding that after all that it still ain't mine 😀
Strange, but I never really thought about it until now (it's just how it is).
Just don't get me started on water connections though, I don't think I could remain calm if you do that.... 👿
So it all rolls on. The costs keep increasing, UK income just lost a thousand well paid jobs and the future is even more murky.
May is still having to beg her party to agree even sensible payments to the eu in order to move along (hell who predicted that) her next biggest threat comes from the brexit loons no the mutineers.
Still nobody will admit what has to go to pay for it - magic money tree anyone?
The longer the politicians play politics and avoid the massive issues the longer this goes on, almost as if a people's select committee is needed.
Not directly brexit, but, so much for a global Britain leading the way.
mrmo - beat me to it.
Another sign of diminishing significance of UK.
Tonight's cabinet meeting appears to have been a non-event; we'll divvy up more money but won't tell you, EU, how much and in return we demand that talks open on trade and an implementation phase.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42060183?ocid=socialflow_twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter
Can't see barnier et al being impressed.
and it appears that Tories and Labour have voted for hard brexit.
Oh what joy.
Nice nonsense Mefty.Were we paying too little or too much for EU membership?
What period are you assuming our "liabilities" extend over?
Not making a qualitative judgement, just pointing out if the true cost of membership should reflect the liabilities incurred during it, which the EU argue, it follows in any year the cost is the cash cost plus the increase in our share of the "unfunded" liabilities during that year.
it follows in any year the cost is the cash cost plus the increase in our share of the "unfunded" liabilities during that year.
Unless you agree to pay for something later or commit to a project/programme in the future then want out. For instance you commit to 10 years funding of something would you pay it all on day 1 or in installments.
Be surprised. It’s a service I offer.
Not really in the slightest, just wanted to bring out the point it is not standard practice, which you confirmed so thank you. Often exceptions to the general rule but not sure that makes them useful analogies.
But you really ought to deal with better financiers.
Not making a qualitative judgement, just pointing out if the true cost of membership should reflect the liabilities incurred during it, which the EU argue, it follows in any year the cost is the cash cost plus the increase in our share of the "unfunded" liabilities during that year.
What period are you assuming our "liabilities" extend over?
If we have committed to projects, and in some cases insisted on them in the first place, way beyond the point we intend to Leave, over how many years of membership would those commitments have been paid for if we had stayed?
Mefty - you suggested you’d be surprised. If you’re no longer surprised, that’s fine too. Learning quickly is a good sign.
I tend to work with good ones - a perk of our ownership. It’s other people who bring me the bad ones - but the good ones aren’t as funny.
I agree it’s not particularly standard - now is the EU set up because folk on here keep suggesting it isn’t (in fact you may have been one?).
The story is relevant on two levels.
One, we really don’t negotiate - there’s a deal, you don’t need to take it - just like someone (probably rightly) accuses the EU of doing. Interestingly we do it in the interests of the generality of users, not a specific user - ponder that one.
And two, you need to not confuse paying with any ownership rights - in some cases that will be just like certain EU ‘assets’.
Were we paying too little or too much for EU membership?
Not the person to make the qualitative judgement as I voted remain, but if you are a Brexiteer it is a perfectly sound argument.
What period are you assuming our "liabilities" extend over?
The EU argue that is irrelevant so I am following their lead. They should be accrued when they are incurred if, as the EU argue, they are unconditional.
After just watching the news on ITV it occurred to me that perhaps the EU never got the memo that "they need us more than we need them?"
After admitting the inevitable and having to offer more money and give the ECJ a role post exit it seems that we need them much more than they need us after all.
Such a shock....
The segment on an A&E department was just saddening to watch. The government is directly and consciously responsible for the killing of its own citizens all in the name of the new God, Austerity.
Sometimes you express things in a way to coax a response - old banker's trick.
AAA ownership does entail certain privileges, but it was a poor analogy to begin with and you are really overworking it now.
Do you mean me mefty? 🙂
I realise there are probably parallel conversions going on.
No, there are and I was being lazy.
mrmo - MemberGot my first anti Irish comment in a while today(30 years!), thank you Brexit!
I work in an English pub, we love the Irish, you pay our wages! 😀
😉
and today the civil servants let slip that they haven't been working on either the NI border ofr what to do at Dover. So May and cos majoc fairy dust border for NI is completely imaginary. Obviously no solution available.
Plus the EBA & EMA are off - to the tune of £600m bill to us & a nice boost of £180m to the Dutch for the EMA.
Nice work Brexiteers!
nice bit about the undeliverability of a Eurotom replacement in todays Guardian. Simply no time to implement.
More good work.... quite a humiliation well done Brexiteers...
'The government likes to talk of what it calls "global Britain", a vision of a buccaneering UK, independent of the EU, promoting its interests and values and trade around the world.
The problem is that many believe that vision has not yet been backed up with any policy substance.
Instead, rightly or wrongly, many countries see the UK turning in on itself to sort out the complexity of Brexit.
They see it as a retreat from the international stage - whatever the Brexiteers argue to the contrary - and these countries are filling the vacuum accordingly. '
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42061028
