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What would be the options in this proposed referendum - Deal or No Deal? Or Remain too?
Surely the only question that can work/have any validity is "This deal, or Remain..."
I disagree, this deal has failed miserably at every turn, any deal will only represent the view of a small minority and be opposed by everyone else.
The only option now is a showdown between a no deal brexit and remain. That has to be clear though, no fantasies about easy deals or them needing us more than we need them. The brexit vote must be for no deal, not a million different fantasies of what brexit entails.
Yes but would Corbyn have to go for THE referendum or A referendum?
I agree that the fantasy Brexits should be put away and not see the light of day again: the only deal that actually exists is this crappy effort (accepting that it's not even a deal, really, just an agreement that allows us to move towards establishing the future relationship)
No deal is, I think, widely enough accepted to be a stupid idea that it shouldn't really feature in the question - perhaps that's just my view though...
Any referendum has to be binary or risk delivering a result which backs both Leave and Remain in one form or another. (not that a binary question solves this one entirely). This deal vs Remain seems to be the only one. No other deal has been negotiated with the EU, they will not accept some hopeful but unicorn-friendly Norway+++ vs Remain or Norway+++ vs No Deal vs This Deal vs Remain.
Remember the only thing that would allow us to hold a ref is the good graces of the 27. No time to get it done even before Halloween.
Does no deal mean no deals ever?
At some point we would have to agree something otherwise there would be no trade or travel to the mainland.
Would a ****wit bigot care to expand on this no deal?
Is the problem not that nobody quite knows what the extension was actually for?
The rest of the EU leaders think May is going beat MPs into line (or offer her still beating Heart on a silver platter) to somehow frig the agreed Deal through on the 50th attempt...
Half the "moderate" Brexit supporting MPs think they're going to get lots of amendments voted into the deal in parliament, and then the EU will somehow accept all those amendments and Brexit happens...
Remainers (both in and out of Parliament) are still daring to hope for a 2nd Referendum (and/or possibly a GE?) where 'Remain' is a choice...
Hardcore No-Deal Brexiteer and the ERG are just hoping for yet more shambles, May to finally thow in the towel, so their man can take Tory party over and we just drift into a No Deal Brexit Happens in October...
But ultimately everyone's predictions are equally worthless. All the different interested parties have are hopes and aspirations...
Two options:
Remain
Or
**** off back to Noddy Land
The only option now is a showdown between a no deal brexit and remain.
As I've said a number of times,
"No deal" is not an option. It's what happens when we run out of options. It's like being unsure whether you want to go out for dinner because no-one can agree on a restaurant, so asking your family whether they want to stay at home or not eat anything.
And in any case, it's another unicorn notion. I don't think anyone would want planes to be grounded post-brexit, for instance. Which is a highly unlikely scenario but for that not to happen we'd have to put some sort of agreement in place to replicate the Open Skies agreement. And what's another word for agreement? Anyone? Four letters, begins with D...?
The only sensible referendum, is so far as a ****ing referendum is sensible in the first place, is between what the government has come up with and changing our minds.
No deal is one thing parliament has actually reached a position on - they don't want it.
Yet it’s still the default position if we carry on with this endless faffing about
To prevent no deal we need to provide an alternative acceptable to the EU
There is an obvious one
It is looking (as @dannyh said) more like:
1. Remain
2. No idea, as nobody can agree on anything
One for Binners,
Time for Jeremy Torybyn to go.
Well i’m Truly shocked! It’s almost as if Corbyn’s a Brexiteer?
But that couldn’t be the case, surely?
I did notice on Twitter that the beardy messiah was safely back in his comfort zone, and onto his favourite topic. Never mind Brexit, let’s get those bus routes sorted....
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1121700759207317504?s=21
I'm sorry, but I'm refusing to comment until TJ has been along to interpret JCs statements for me.
I’ll send out the sign to raise his troops from their slumber, comrade. They’ll be here in no time to tell you to stop being horrid about Reg, as you’re aiding a right-wing conspiracy, orchestrated by the Daily Mail and Mossad
Oh dear...
So, shock horror.. Labour are just as knackered as the tories when it comes to brexit, that's the thing when you have no clear consensus in the electorate or in parliament, or in your party. corbyn might actually have to climb down the fence he's been sitting on. pretty soon, instead of talking about bus time tables at PMQ's.
Which side of the fence will he climb down? Nobody knows!
Meanwhile may is doing nothing, as that's her normal position.
Surely as the government has basically collapsed, and if Labour got in, they would also collapse, the only option is to retract article 50, and have a good hard think for a change.
if Labour got in
Not something anyone need worry about at the moment, or indeed for the foreseeable.
Which side of the fence will he climb down? Nobody knows!
I’m guessing he’ll continue to follow labour policy of a soft Brexit which includes a customs union and de facto single market membership, as has been the policy for some time now. The fact that some of you still refuse to acknowledge this is indicative more of your wilful ignorance than Corbyn’s indecision.
I’m guessing he’ll continue to follow labour policy of a soft Brexit which includes a customs union and de facto single market membership, as has been the policy for some time now. The fact that some of you still refuse to acknowledge this is indicative more of your wilful ignorance than Corbyn’s indecision.
Yep, 100%. Some still don't want to see it as they wouldn't be able to post up yet more (very) tired another Monty Python images.
And it doesn't matter because that will never get him or Labour elected.
Unicorns and rainbows is labour's position.
No deal is one thing parliament has actually reached a position on – they don’t want it.
Outside of this Remain echo chamber there are a worrying number of people who still, despite everything that's happened since the referendum, want a No Deal exit. If there is a No Deal/Remain vote I wouldn't put money on it being a clear win for Remain.
If there is a No Deal/Remain vote I wouldn’t put money on it being a clear win for Remain.
It won't be a clear win for remain. Not that many people have changed their mind but a swing of 2 million will happen for those that have changed their mind along with young new voters and dead old voters. I would predict about 52/48 for remain.
How long would a "no deal" mandate bind the government? Could it start making and signing agreements with the EU the day after we give up membership? A vote to not deal with the rest of the continent is meaningless nonsense. What happens if within a year of a vote for "no deal" we're in Schengen, like other European countries that are not EU members?
and de facto single market membership, as has been the policy for some time now
Until Corbyn&Co's (and May's, if this is going to happen by cross party agreement) red line on Freedom Of Movement of workers is dropped, this is not going to happen. It is a lie. It is a deceit. It is a unicorn.
Unicorns and rainbows is labour’s position.
Exactly. Jezza is being equally as dishonest as Boris Johnson ever was. He's peddling a 'cake and eat it' Brexiteer fantasy which will lead us to exactly to where we're now - to a no deal Brexit. Which is, of course, what he's wanted all along.
Marina Hyde is on the money, as ever, in this mornings Guardian
Brady, Batten and the bloody backstop (again): it’s still dark in the sunlit uplands
Attention next week seems likely to turn to Labour, who on Tuesday hold an emergency NEC meeting to decide official Labour policy for the European elections. The question of whether to campaign for a confirmatory referendum is believed to be incredibly finely balanced. On one side is the International Commission of Labour’s National Policy Forum, who according to Robert Peston agreed unanimously that they should, and which includes MPs and constituency representatives. Also on this side are all Labour MEPs, who voted unanimously this way on Wednesday, most of Labour’s big union supporters, and 71% of Labour’s members at last count. On the other side are – ah! – Len McCluskey’s Unite and the leader’s office. So yes, we must all wait and see how that one turns out.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1122168861481164800?s=19
Latest European Parliament voting intention poll (survation) is interesting. Remain are getting trounced.
No idea how this will pan out but Labour neck and neck with Brexit party so despite all the incessant rubbish on here about Corbyn and his decisions - looks like a soft Brexit might just be the best approach otherwise it's over to the Brexit party.
Uniting remainers and leavers is a smart tactic.
It is just a poll though.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1122177498568122370?s=19
Latest Westminster voting intention opens up lots of new debate too.
Doesn't look like a shift to remain to me.
What a hideous attempt to abuse statistics.
What a hideous attempt to abuse statistics.
Help me out here.
How so, sr009... ? Just looks like widely reported poll results to me. Quite a small sample but no-one is hiding that. Read and make of it what you will but I need the abuse pointing out to mpe as I can't see it. The problem is that there is no remain party as such in England, remainers continue to intend to vote for the traditional parties with leave policies, foolishly IMO.
Edit: Good God, I agree with Rone, someone whip me now !
Edit: Good God, I agree with Rone, someone whip me now !
That makes me feel lovely.
What will those brexit MEPs be so keen for us to leave once they've got their cushy jobs?
They’ll do what Farage has always done. Pick up the salary, and expenses and turn up once every blue moon to deliver an incoherent rant, then be on the next plane back to Heathrow
"Remain are getting trounced" is a pretty obvious abuse- UKIP and Conservative massively down and rpesumably providing most of the Brexit PArty's votes, Lib Dem- the biggest remainer party- up.
Which poll, Northwind? Libdems have been down or up by a tiny amount in polls I've seen. The Brexit party has done better from nowhere. And just where is the Remain party?
The one that Rone claimed meant "Remain are getting trounced"- first one on this page
Inferring that a vote in an election is a confirmation or change in a binary choice on a singular issue that was voted on previously and separately.
Another poll in the Observer says that more peoole than ever think the referendum was a mistake. 49% of conservatives even, although that might just be because all the conservative leavers have left.
And just where is the Remain party
There isn't one, but you know that. There are parties strongly in favour of staying in the EU, and/or for close ties to it, and/or for the public having another vote on the issue of membership before we leave. They have other policies as well. Well, most of them do.
think the referendum was a mistake
Even if you were (and still are) someone who thinks the UK should no longer be a member of the EU… a referendum called by a government with no plans or intention of making that happen… must look foolish now. Elect a government, with a plan, that they can they put to the people in a referendum. Trying to do it the other way around has blindingly obvious drawbacks… if you couldn't see that in 2016, you should be able to see it by now, and if not you will do by the end of the year…
If by remain party you mean that change mob I think the polling is less to do with what they stand for and more to do with the puke inducing delivery of every point any of them try to make.
They thought they knew what people wanted but have missed the point by a long way. They will be a footnote before too long.
Oh, and because the fraud Farage has stolen their thunder and TV slots so they are no longer getting air time.
Well I hate say I told you so, but the euro poll is a sad and predictable result of what happens when you ignore the votes of millions people, they go and vote for someone else. Luckily this is only a euro election which no one cares about, but can anyone imagine the ramifications if this was replicated in a general election?
Just imagine Farage in parliament as the 3rd largest party with 50 MPs behind him, or even worse as the official opposition. On the surface this would be good for the labour party as it means the evisceration of the tories and the brexit mob would be unelectable, but it would poison politics for decades, and massively amplify polarisation in the country.
the euro poll is a sad and predictable result of what happens when you ignore the votes of millions people, they go and vote for someone else.
Well to be fair parties have been doing that for decades and still got votes. I think it's a symptom of 'lesser' elections.
the euro poll is a sad and predictable result of what happens when you ignore the votes of millions people
Well, when you have plan for Brexit that can unite those who campaigned and voted for it, then this will all be sorted… the Tories can adopt it and the Brexit party disappears…
is a sad and predictable result of what happens when you ignore the votes of millions people, they go and vote for someone else
Indeed, both the major parties have had a hard on for ignoring half the population and rushing head long into an ill conceived brexit. And now remainers feel completely unrepresented with no one to vote for.
And now remainers feel completely unrepresented with no one to vote for.
An interesting interpretation when it shows the new brexit party on 27%, the tories collapsing, labour pretty much surviving and the anti-brexit parties hardly registering at all. My takeaway from that is that brexit voters are coalescing around Farage's new party whilst labour are hanging on to those in the middle. If this poll is to be believed then it would suggest that pro-remain voters don't feel strongly about it enough to support a full-on remain party like the libdems or no-change party. If that is true then it could also indicate that the remain vote is not nearly as strong as the leavers, raising a question about the result of any future referendum. Admittedly that's a lot to infer from one poll though 🙂
the new brexit party on 27%, the tories collapsing
So… just the pre-referendum UKIP+Tory vote… now transposed to a BREXIT+Tory vote… much the same electorate… much the same split… meaning the referendum gamble has completely failed for the Tories… meanwhile… Labour voters keep hoping their party will come good and stand up for them…
Farage made a really strong point on LBC - he said it's all about branding first and foremost.
'Brexit' tells you want the party stands for - 'Change' is completely the wrong name (aside from the fact they they aren't changing anything) and would've been better named as 'Remain'.
It is unfortunate that distilling politics down comes to a brand name - but he's got a very good point. We live in polarising times.
However UKIP's original logo and colours were effing disgusting. An obnoxious poundshop.
Labour voters keep hoping their party will come good and stand up for them…
So labour policy is working then? Let the tories destroy themselves and the brexit vote split whilst holding on to it's own support by not alienating labour voters on either side of the brexit divide? I know many want labour to come down on the side of hard-remain but this poll give little evidence that it would be a good idea. Looks to me like labour have learned the lessons of the 2017 election.
So… just the pre-referendum UKIP+Tory vote… now transposed to a BREXIT+Tory vote… much the same electorate… much the same split… meaning the referendum gamble has completely failed for the Tories… meanwhile… Labour voters keep hoping their party will come good and stand up for them…
The difference is the acceleration towards the new Brexit party. (Although it's effectively UKIP light.)
And you've just hinted that we would get the same result again, which I'm sure (and I could be wrong) that you've been strong on the idea that there has been a shift towards remain?
Do you still think that will be reflected at some point?
Admittedly that’s a lot to infer from one poll though 🙂
It is but it's the best we have at the moment, but not conclusive for sure.
So labour policy is working then?
No, we keep hoping, but as long as they keep fudging we won't be voting for them. Even this weekend while local constituency campaigners are threatening to not canvas if a second ref doesn't become party policy, one of the negotiating team has come out saying that they could do a deal with the Tories without a 2nd ref.
It is the politics of disenfranchisement and playing into the hands of the right wing.
Did anyone else notice that the Change party abbreviates to CHUK? He'll be delighted
It is the politics of disenfranchisement and playing into the hands of the right wing.
But this poll indicates that disenfranchised voters are mostly on the right wing already and labour support is holding up despite the common assumption that remainers will leave them for pro-remain parties. Needs more polls but there are clear signs that the split in the brexit vote will be more damaging to the tories than the split in the remain vote will be to labour.
Will the demise of the tory party just mean we end up with something worse?
But this poll indicates...
Nope...
Will the demise of the tory party just mean we end up with something worse?
I doubt there will be something worse ...
The demise of Tory party also means the beginning of the end for traditional British political parties perhaps also the political system. The "right" cannot survive without the "left" vice versa as they are symbiotic. This will take perhaps two or three generations to come. Time change.
First to go after the demise of Tory party is Scotland then the House of Lords and then monarchy.
If Scotland wants another referendum they should have it and let the people determine; and if they want to go then go. They can take care of themselves and stand on their own feet.
As for calling for a 2nd referendum on Brexit ... nahhh ... what for? Both sides (leavers vs remainders) should fight to the end even if it means dragging the entire British political system down. At least the infighting means they have less time to interfere and to influence other countries or political systems in the world which is good.
As for the "lefty" parties they are going to stay the same due to their determination but they will mainly confine to side shows.
🤔
It is the politics of disenfranchisement and playing into the hands of the right wing.
No, the disenfranchisement has always been there regardless of the "right wing" ideology.
Actually, if Labour (and remainders) wants to frustrate Brexit or go for a 2nd referendum or simply reverse the process then they should be given baton (to form govt). See how long before they will last before disintegration.
Even if the Govt call for an election now and a new govt is form they will be in the same situation and probably also spell demise for their own party. 🤔
Whoever wins will have NO peace for a long long time.
I thnik that poll reveals a lot. It says that hard Brexiters are committed to vote just for that and Remainers are still to attached to their Brexiting traditional parties to vote for a firmly remain party. That disappoints me putting it in terms that won't turn into asterixes.
I thnik that poll reveals a lot. It says that hard Brexiters are committed to vote just for that and Remainers are still to attached to their Brexiting traditional parties to vote for a firmly remain party. That disappoints me putting it in terms that won’t turn into asterixes.
The order of my voting preference is now:
1. Brexit Party (Farage makes sense to me)
2. Conservative Party
3. Independent party, if none of the above are present.
🤔
Whoever wins will have NO peace for a long long time.
And there in one line, chewkw sums up why Brexit is a bad idea, and indeed the Brexit referendum was a bad idea.
Except for those who profit from turmoil and strife of course.
And there in one line, chewkw sums up why Brexit is a bad idea, and indeed the Brexit referendum was a bad idea.
Except for those who profit from turmoil and strife of course.
It is actually a natural stage of political system evolution as it will happen regardless perhaps even worst when the entire EU Govt system collapse. Yes, EU governing system will collapse as you can already see the rise of opposition to the system. You can hold them back but you cannot hold them back forever. Just like Scotland where you can hold them back for a while but not forever.
p/s: It is not a bad idea by the way as people have voted to leave. It is a bad idea when people are frustrated and their decision is overruled.
Can someone just ban the ****ing troll? Or, if you feel you can't ban him, ban me instead. Same difference to me.
Labour don't want to give away an estimated 3-4 million voters to Farage do they?
He's useful, Kelvin, gives us an insight into why people really voted Brexit. I used to work for a water borad and I'm now convinced that all those chemicals we used chuck in the water to clean it were in fact governement supplied drugs to make people paranoid and thick, a sort of super weed, and it's working. I drank the stuff myself for a few years so I can't quite decide if my conviction is due to mild paranoia, but I feel obliged to share all the same because these new fangled social media mean I can and it would be a pity not to.
Edit and in case people think I'm joking, read the long term health implications of consuming aluminium, and consider how accurately (or not) water boards dose aluminium:
The deliberate government involvement with aim of inducing paranoia/stupidity is tin foil hat stuff but use of aluminium not a good idea.
I thought your point was going to be that chewkw drank neat aluminium as some sort of explanation.
The troll will be removed by the Border Force in due course, right to remain or no. It's the natural course of the actions he proposes. If you're not white in the brave new Brexit world you're on a plane out of here in handcuffs.
Which one is the troll?
I'm sure cheek will have "honorary little Aryan" status bestowed upon him by Chancellor Mogg.
scotroutes
Member
Which one is the troll?
Anyone who doesnt agree with STW consensus- ban them all!
zippykona
Subscriber
I’m sure cheek will have “honorary little Aryan” status bestowed upon him by Chancellor Mogg.
WTF?
There isn't a "stw consensus" as regards this thread. Read back over any of the pages to see plenty of disagreement about what has happened, is happening, could happen, and should happen.
Looks like Jezza is preparing the stitch up to prevent the EU elections, and get Brexit through without a second vote...
Labour hints at backing Brexit deal without promise of referendum
So, this championing of democracy and restoring decision-making to the members is going well, isn't it?
Daz, Labour are at 22 percent in the yougov poll. Change and the Greens have 10 percent each, with the libdems on 7. A hard remain coalition will gain more votes than Labour.
So Labour clearly has haemorrhaged votes, just not quite to the same extent as the Tories.
The Tories will eventually be able to claim they delivered brexit, due to Labour appeasement when Labour do a deal. They will use this fact to split the labour party.
As soon as Brexit happens the lunatics will just go back to voting Toty, where as the remain voters will feel betrayed and likely won't go back to Labour for a long time.
This is going to end how you think it will Daz. It's going to end with a smoking pile of ashes that was the Labour party.
Labour aren't being hit by the big "Brexit Party" launch at all really… all just UKIP+Tory voters wanting to be heard… why aren't Labour suffering the same fate…?
a) Labour Brexit voters are happy with Labour approach to Brexit.
b) Labour Brexit voters are only a small and insignificant minority of the base of support.
Probably a bit of both.
Now, how to win over more support…? That all depends on whether a or b above is the bigger factor really… and whether claiming vote share from Brexit+UKIP is a goal worth chasing… or if there are millions of other people ready to drop everything and vote Labour if it offers a potential way out of all this…
The Tories will eventually be able to claim they delivered brexit, due to Labour appeasement when Labour do a deal. They will use this fact to split the labour party.
I was only referring to the poll rone posted above. Like I said, more are required to establish the real situation. The above is an interesting point though. Yes there is a risk of this. It's highly ironic that if this becomes a battle between the new brexit obsessed parties and the old traditional parties then the interests of the tories and labour are aligned in reaching a deal to protect their grip on power, and this could indeed be driving progress on a deal.
I still think a deal is the best option. The danger to labour of supporters defecting in the wake of a deal is much less than the same danger to the tories, although if it results in more power to the green party I'm not going to complain.